best first mod for MM

[Crazieboutamerc]

It is comming closer to getting my MM. I am wondering what would be a good first mod to do. I already have a "real" autometer oil press guage to put in it. I was thinking maybe a chip to help the tranny shifting.

Tim

[Dennis Reinhart]

Stage 1 is the only way to fly

[TAF]

Stage 1 is the only way to fly
I'll second that motion :beer:

[RF Overlord]

I'll second that motion :beer:

And I'll third it... :rock:

[greyghost]

I will forth it!! :D

[DONP1217]

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.


I absolutley dissagree, what are you going to gain with just exhaust? with a non chip car, it still has stock timing and air fuel it will still have slow shifts and a top speed limiter, and it will cost you twice as much to install the headers as a stage 1, this is the first step towards a SC, after stage 1 do stage 2 and exhaust either mine or Kooks and then transmision up grade along with the sway bar and PI converter and the MMDS then the car is set up for the SC along with a good brake upgrade and you are ready to go.

[dwasson]

So, is the concensus that the best bang for the buck is chip, plugs, stat and rear end? How does this affect interstate cruising? It's still my daily driver. What RPM are you turning at 70 mph with a 4.10 rear?

[Marauderman]

I agree with Dennis--I did just as he described over several months to become acquainted with each result and also get to know the new car each time as well..-each graduates you up to the next level of performance the right way ... at the right time for both you and the car....Tom.

[Marauderman]

So, is the concensus that the best bang for the buck is chip, plugs, stat and rear end? How does this affect interstate cruising? It's still my daily driver. What RPM are you turning at 70 mph with a 4.10 rear?\\
Answer--Yes-- Best Bang for the buck!! Interstate drive becomes better and the RPM's are only slightly higher--maybe 200-300 - The tranny no longer hunts to shift up to the 45MPH range and shifting is firm and quicker. The higher gears are not a problem.....there are many others here with this set-up who will agree... Tom

[Dennis Reinhart]

So, is the concensus that the best bang for the buck is chip, plugs, stat and rear end? How does this affect interstate cruising? It's still my daily driver. What RPM are you turning at 70 mph with a 4.10 rear?

What most people think when 4:10 gears are mentioned is there goes my fuel economy, this is absolutely wrong with a good chip 4:10 gears a good set of plugs a 180 thermostat the car will gain over 23 RWHP over 30 foot pounds or Torque, the top speed limiter is gone the transmission shifts are firmed up you wont believe its the same car, the difference in stock 3:55 gears and 4:10's is 300 RPM at 65 MPH you will most likely see gas mileage stay the same or may improve.

[valleyman]

With the Reinhart chip and a 4.10 rearend my gas mileage did not change at all. The difference in responsiveness with the chip cannot be overstated: post-chip you will probably feel, "Yes! This is what I was wanting from this car in the first place." I, too, was very concerned about the leap in numbers going from a 3.55 to a 4.10 and the possible consequences on highway driving. They are negligible. If I had to do it over I would us a 4.30 just to get a bit more snap off the line. And even then I would probably be saying, "I wish I'd gone with the 4.56."

I did the chip+stat/plugs first followed in a couple of weeks by having the rearend swapped out. In my experience the most bang for the buck is the chip+. If you can afford it do chip and rearend at the same time as this will obviate having to redo the chip to make the speedometer accurate again when you change the rearend. As a bonus, you can do the chip+ install yourself following Logan's most excellent tutorial on the job posted here on the site. And if you run into any speedbumps on the job (like I did), all you have to do is get on this forum (like I did) and a host of more experienced wrenchs will walk you through whatever problem you encounter.

The only drawback to the chip+ is that it's hard to see out of the rearview mirror now because the constant grin on my face scrunches up my eyes and makes it hard to see a small objest like that. I also have MUCH more of a tendency to be a throttle jockey now because of the way the MM responds compared to what it was in stock condition.

Chip+ first. It changes everything (except, perhaps, the perennial appearances of the Yankees and the Braves in the post-season).

[Marauder57]

I have really enjoyed the Stage 1.....then accented it with Pulleys, exhaust etc....

The difference after stage 1 was that I felt like this was the way the car should have been when I bought it...... still the best first move in my opinion.... :rock:

[TAF]

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.
You are VERY ill-informed. But feel free to go against the 100+ folks here that have already learned (and earned) the right way to mod the car the proper way, if you wish.

[greyghost]

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.
If you go straight to the S/C your going to have to do everything that is stage I anyway. Now if you really have a big bag of money and you want to do everything at one time maybe a built engine so you can runn 20 psi boost I am sure Dennis can accomodate you immediately if not sooner.

When I go to a S/C my car will be rerady. Its like color coordinating a room . All the parts gotta match or something will break. And for those that know Mr. Murphy he is always hanging around looking to screw us at the most inopportune time. That I don't like because in years past I didn't match my drive train for the power Iwas putting out and it hurt.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I agree with Barry, DonP don't think I am attacking you, I am not, you just can't bolt a supercharger on the car with no other upgrades, I mean you can, but first of all the transmission will not hold up and the car is to fast for the stock OEM brakes, so Don no matter who's kit you buy there are lots of other things to prep the car for before the SC, a lot of us cannot shell out 12K at one time, that's why we do the Mods in steps. This is a great site the best I have ever been on, so again its some times easy to misinterpret what is posted here no one is here to argue or belittle.

[usgecko]

Hope this isn't a rude question - I looked at Dennis's site and couldnt see the price of stage 1 upgrade - if I missed it could someone post a link to their prices or tell me the cost.

Thanks - this is a great site !!

[Petrograde]

Hey Gecko,

Prices usually are not posted on this site. Anyway, the best way to find out is to call Dennis. 904-276-5003

Tom

[Dennis Reinhart]

Its not rude I am working on the site I have hired someone to update it and I will get prices and a shopping cart on there soon why not give me a call tomorrow.

[greyghost]

Hope this isn't a rude question - I looked at Dennis's site and couldnt see the price of stage 1 upgrade - if I missed it could someone post a link to their prices or tell me the cost.

Thanks - this is a great site !!
Call Dennis at his shop or email him directly with a private message to get the prices.

[Smokie]

Read my Sig. decide if this is a good place to start, very economical, if you have more money listen to Dennis.

PS: My best time was done with a lousy hook-up, car can go faster.

[SergntMac]

Read my Sig. decide if this is a good place to start, very economical, if you have more money listen to Dennis. PS: My best time was done with a lousy hook-up, car can go faster.

I'm impressed Smokie, congrats! My best time with my first MM was 14.21, and installing a lot more than just Reinhart programming. IMHO, you got the best "bang for the buck" of us all!

[Smokie]

Thanks Sarge, all I can say is that what Dennis offers is very solid and the only reason I have gone no further is because finances took a turn for the worse, the programming made the car shift so solid is hard to believe. I recommend what Dennis offers; and his personal service is top notch. :beer:

[BigMerc]

As one of us who has had the all the stages done, I have learned at least one thing. LISTEN to Dennis Reinhart. I agree with the chip,stat plugs first, then the rear then exhaust,supercharger. I have the whole list on my car, do it in stages so its affordable. and lastly....LISTEN to Dennis, he won't steer you wrong to sell you something.

[Agent M79]

Stage I have been very very good to me. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy with the results.

It has, however, highlighted the need for better binders... at least in my case.

[DONP1217]

Except for TAF's post, no offense is taken from anyone. We all take different approaches to building our cars. I am trying to share mine.

There are several vendors on this site that sell superchargers that bolt on to a stock car. The transmission may or may not hold up but stage I kits do nothing to address the transmission. Trilogy has had no problems with their trannys to date.

I'll stick with what I am doing. I'd rather put the $1500 or so dollars doing gears, chip, stat, plugs, driveshaft, etc. towards a supercharger. That $1500 can be used later on to beef up my tranny.

As far as brake upgrades go, the best stopping distances can be achieved by attending a driving school. It is just like motorcycles. Often money is best spent learning how to ride the bike properly. Often the equipment is not the problem.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Don you are right every one has there opinion, Trilogy does upgrade the brakes, my kit makes more power, but then again there are many N/A Marauder owners that are having there transmissions fail with out being SC. So if you want to bolt on a SC with out any furter upgrades that's your choice. I just try and make as much safe reliable power as I can, while at the same time ensuring the car is safe to drive.

[duhtroll]

I heartily agree that stage I is the way to go. I am in the process of completing stage II and III minus the torque converter (with stage IV being SC - not sure if I will go there yet). I also agree that Dennis is very up front about his information and he is always willing to share. Call him and ask.

I am one who did see a MPG drop (about 1.5-2 MPG after stage I) with no other changes made other than a dyno tune. This is not a problem for me as I am not worried about mileage. I want performance and if that means I only get 18 MPG instead of the 20 I was getting (mixed driving - hwy alone was 23-24 before and 21 after) then so be it. Balls come first, then economy second. ;)

Thanks,
-A

[TAF]

Except for TAF's post, no offense is taken from anyone.
I just answered in a similar "tone" as your initial post Don...

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.
Which I still say is ill-informed. Wasn't trying to be offensive...just trying to pass on what most here have already learned.

[Marauder]

Best 1st mod that will cost less than $40 and 20 minutes of time.

Sylvania Silver Stars....gotta see where you're going with all that power. :D :D

[greyghost]

Except for TAF's post, no offense is taken from anyone. We all take different approaches to building our cars. I am trying to share mine.

There are several vendors on this site that sell superchargers that bolt on to a stock car. The transmission may or may not hold up but stage I kits do nothing to address the transmission. Trilogy has had no problems with their trannys to date.

I'll stick with what I am doing. I'd rather put the $1500 or so dollars doing gears, chip, stat, plugs, driveshaft, etc. towards a supercharger. That $1500 can be used later on to beef up my tranny.

As far as brake upgrades go, the best stopping distances can be achieved by attending a driving school. It is just like motorcycles. Often money is best spent learning how to ride the bike properly. Often the equipment is not the problem.

Ya really Blasted the list with your first post.

You are one that will learn the hard way.

Retro fit is a term that is made for folks like you, on the other hand maybe your buddies with Mr. Murphy and he won't mess with you.

I really think Todd was correct in his input and having built different kinds of racers over the years and having them break because I didn't coordinate the parts I have learned the hard way.

Thank God this is America and we all have choices.

[MI2QWK4U]

Why do you need the stage 1 and 2 with a supercharger? I read several people state this. Im just curious to know why. What does the 180 stat do for me as opposed to the stock one? What will the plugs do for the supercharged car? I personally dont like or want the 410s on my supercharged car, with my setup, I have so much torque down low, I cant imagine haveing more with the 410s, besides, I like having my top end. With the stock gears my pull at top end speeds is still ungodly, ask that 2003 Mustang Cobra that tangled with me on the way to Ennis...he got spanked real bad up top.
I think the main thing that people need to consider when thinking mods is what is you ultimate goal.....
-Leave the car otherwise stock, no intentions for a blower: get the 410s and chip. The difference that made in Lidio's car was stellar, but he spent a lot of time coming up with his combo. This is clearly the best bang for your immediate buck!
-You are going to get a supercharger, then you need to decide which setup. All I can speak to is the Eaton setup. Its real simple, no other mods needed with it. You will beef up your trans weather you blow it or leave it stock, so that is simply preventative maintainance to me. If I read correctly, for a Vortech, its recommended that you do the two stages of build ups, torque converter, exhaust, etc before getting the Vortech installed. Thats a BIG difference to me. Folks, I literally had the blower bolted on and it produced 400 RWHP and 397 RWTorque, no plugs, no stat, no torque converter. The car runs strong with no problems. I did replace the exhaust from the cats back, but that was mostly for sound and really wasnt necessary i guess even though it seemed to run better after.
Is someone willing to post what they spent on 2 stages and the Vortech blower setup? I dont have a problem spelling out what my mods cost me. As my car sits in the garage, I have about $7000 in mods (including parts & labor) , including Eaton blower kit, cat back exhaust, and the trans mod. End result is a car with the 405 RWHP and 399 Torque.
Again, its all about how much you want to turn this car into a race car. If i want to do that much to a car to race at the strip i will get a Mustang and build a strip car for a lot less. I have a really nice "family" car that is ready to run anyone out there at a drop of the hat. If I'm wrong on anything here, please correct me, but its just my opinion to anyone wondering what to spend on mods....

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well, I am happy for you, my kit makes 440 RWHP with less boost than yours, both kits are great. I believe in doing it right, not that Jerry does not, he does. I like his kit, and I like Jerry, why bring any ones kit in here, this is not a comparison of supercharger kits but since you posted your specifications I posted mine. In my opinion no matter who's kit you use, if I am going to spend that kind of money on a supercharger I want the car to be right, again you have expressed your input you installed the kit and when your transmission blows, and it will, you will replace it. I don't care to have that happen when I am driving cross country with my wife and kids in the car, and I do not want this to happen to my customers either. I can not tell you why Trilogy is not having transmission problems it may be they do not post them, I have no problem posting what I find when I have done as much development as I have on this car its not the fact that you are not aware of any, as when will it start because they will have failures, like every one else because of inherit problems with the 4R70W its just not built for the power and torque both our kits make. Kenny Brown is recommending the transmission upgrade on his cars, some of us don't have 7k to shell out all at once that's why we do it in stages. And if you think the car is safe to bolt on another 200 RWHP with out upgrading the brakes I think you are wrong, but do as you will its your car, 90% of the members here love the 4:10's a few have 3:55's I personally think its wrong to install the blower with out 4:10's because the car moves to a new power band. and if you have two identical cars the one with 4:10's and an SC is going to walk all over you at the track so again I am not arguing here I am just expressing a very large opinion here but I do respect yours, even if I think your wrong. I have lost SC sales because people have called me and just want the kit, I have carefully explained to them the car was never designed for this power, at a bare minimum the car needs a transmission upgrade and brakes, especially the transmission, if you are going to drive at high speeds you need the MMDS, your just plain lucky your transmission has not let go again explain how N/A Marauders are losing there transmissions, what would you say to me if I sold you a kit and the next week your transmission let go and you found out I was aware of this happening, so again you do as you please. I try and give solid advice even at the cost of loosing a sale.

[MI2QWK4U]

Dennis,
I appreciate you opinion and imput, and I dont want to argue about it either, its too unproductive. It is very hard to interpret so much going on with the car at this point, so many options. I agree about the transmission mod. I had trans problems last fall which were totally different than anything i have yet to see here on the forum. Simply stated my trans was bad from the factory and it would have been one of those that died anyway un-supercharged. Beefing the trans up is something that every owner should think about, so we agree there. All im saying is there are choices, and sometimes I feel backed into the corner as my option is one that isnt well thought out or favorable. You may be right about the 410's vs 355's at the track, we will find out, but for everyday driving, i like the 355's, again simple taste and driving preferences. But it should be noted that the Eaton's power band is very different that the Vortech, especially with reguards to where the torque comes on with each. My experience in driving both the Trilogy #1 and mine at the track taught me something about the 410 vs 355 dilema. I can not do a full throttle launch in the Trilogy #1 car, its way to much and the wide nittos just spin, you have to ease into it and then get into it. My car on the other hand is quicker off the line because I can launch full throttle with a slight brake hold. It should be pointed out that both cars are pretty much identical in setup aside for the gears. My torque is off the hook early on. I will have to find a way to scan my Dyno sheet for folks to look at and compare. The point I was trying to make is that for a person considering various mods, to lay it out and see whats best for you. Its a fact that my setup requires less in the way of mods to be reliable for a daily driver, and occasional strip car. As someone with extensive experience with precision driving, I am fully aware of the limitations of the brakes when used irresponsibly or recklessly. Again, it boils down to 3 choices,
mild mods with chip and 410s,
supercharged, either vortech or eaton.
Each one needs to be evaluated and given a value per performance number and decide which is best for you. The one thing I have learned over the years is someone will find a way to be faster, but at what cost or expence or sacrifice of drivability. I may not be the fastest in the 1/4 mile, which remains to be seen, but I will be near the top. This is the comunity forum and people were asked for their opinions as to the best bang for the buck. So at least respect my input for that.
Dave

[paheff]

Why waste time with all of the stage 1 and bolt on mods? Put the money towards a supercharger. After you are done doing all the bolt ons you will have spent lots of cash and you won't have anywhere near 400 hp.

The Kook's headers and exhaust is money better spent than computer chips, plugs, stats, underdrive pullies, etc.

Spend the money on REAL mods.

Have you driven a car with stage 1? How about one that only has the exhaust done? Have you done a comparrison? :confused:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Its like night and day you will swear its not the same car Marty is running in the 13's

[TooManyFords]

Food for thought...

I don't have a supercharger on mine, but I think the Brake Upgrade issue is really a "non-issue", all things being equal. Slow down everyone, hear me out...

If you bolt -any- supercharger onto a bone stock Marauder, it still only goes as fast as the computer says the car can go. What is that, 125-128? If Ford made the car go this fast, I'm sure they put some thought into the brakes. I just don't buy into the notion that the S/C mod needs to be pre-empted with other mods first. I guess somebody needs to explain to me why the brakes suddenly are insufficient when you bolt a S/C on.

No flames people, this is my opinion and I'm expressing it.

John

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well, the car weighs over 4000 pounds you now have increased its RWHP by over 200, so now the car is accelerating twice as fast as stock with increased braking this adds heat to the stock OEM rotors this causes pedal fade, this can increase the stopping distance by over 30% That's what directional cross drilled rotors reduce which increases braking power and decreases stopping distance. I personally feel the car needs better brakes without an SC, so if you want to bolt on an SC and not upgrade the brakes that's your call, why do Mustang owners upgrade there brakes, ask Tom Adair about his Bear front brake kit there is no comparison over stock. The car will stop on a dime. With the ability to accelerate much faster you are going to use the brakes more often and harder, this will cause rotor warpage and the pads to glaze over, so again it all comes back to what you feel safe with.

[TooManyFords]

Ok Dennis, I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. Acceleration is not a function of braking ability. At any given speed, the amount of brake pressure required to stop the vehicle remains constant whether or not the car is supercharged.

How fast you actually get to 120+ MPH or how many hundreds of additional RWHP it gains has nothing to do with how the car stops. I didn't say it was safer, it is just a constant. Please do not confuse the two.

I don't need a supercharger to glaze my pads over. A lot of hard driving with a 4000 lb. car will do that. I respect your opinion that the brakes on the MM suck although it is not an opinion I currently hold. We can agree to disagree on this one. I'm betting our two driving styles are different. <wink>

Respectfully,

John

[Dennis Reinhart]

What ever floats your boat, this is what I love about this site intelligent conversation where we can express our own opinions, if you are telling me that a 450 RWHP as compared to a 233 RWHP car and the added RWHP wont effect the brakes I beg to differ, do what ever your heart desires, I just wont ride with you OK, but were still friends and I will buy beers, I want Stoleys Seabreeze though

[TooManyFords]

Unless you're dragging your left foot on the brake pedal while roasting those rear tires, no.

If your car is doing 100 MPH and my car is doing 100 MPH and we both have the same brakes, then we both will stop in the same distance. You may get to 100 MPH 2.2 seconds quicker than I did, but the brakes don't care. That is what I'm getting at.

Again, I didn't say it was any safer, just that it's one of those laws of physics and shouldn't be confused with additional horsepower or boost levels.

John

186,000 miles per second... It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[bigslim]

Don you are right every one has there opinion, Trilogy does upgrade the brakes, my kit makes more power, but then again there are many N/A Marauder owners that are having there transmissions fail with out being SC. So if you want to bolt on a SC with out any furter upgrades that's your choice. I just try and make as much safe reliable power as I can, while at the same time ensuring the car is safe to drive.
Trilogy has never upgraded the brakes on any of their cars. They also have done no mods to the transmissions. I have seen first hand the Trilogy 1 car go with over 20,000 miles on it and not have one problem. This also a low mid to high 12 second car with nothing other than a supercharger. I too believe that the brakes could using upgrading. But for bank-for-buck the Trilogy is the way to go. If my money was a little better right and I didn't buy another car I would have had my Trilogy already. Also, I like the Trilogy because it gives you more low end torque. That is where this car needs it. With this mod you don't need the torque converter. This car also has great driveablilty. For me this is what I look for.

[dwasson]

In Germany, engine mods sold as options on new cars (AMG, et.al.) are evaluated by the TUV. The TUV usually requires that the brakes be upgraded whenever the HP is substancially increased. I think that most cars sold in the US would benefit from better brakes and a 400 + HP 4200 lb sedan can really use more brakes.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Trilogy has never upgraded the brakes on any of their cars. They also have done no mods to the transmissions. I have seen first hand the Trilogy 1 car go with over 20,000 miles on it and not have one problem. This also a low mid to high 12 second car with nothing other than a supercharger. I too believe that the brakes could using upgrading. But for bank-for-buck the Trilogy is the way to go. If my money was a little better right and I didn't buy another car I would have had my Trilogy already. Also, I like the Trilogy because it gives you more low end torque. That is where this car needs it. With this mod you don't need the torque converter. This car also has great driveablilty. For me this is what I look for.

I am confused over all of this what does Trilogy have to do with this,
Big slim What difference does that make, I was wrong. I thought I seen a brake upgrade on the car at Ennis, lets get Trilogy out of the conversation, it makes no difference in who's kit you use, I never meant to compare kits, this was started by another member the title of this thread is what is the best Mod, then it was posted why Mod the car at all just bolt on a Supercharger of course this was, a Trilogy owner,

I don't care, if it was someone saying bolt on a Reinhart kit, I would be saying the same thing. In my opinion the BRAKES need upgraded and so does the transmission, you say you have 20K on your car I will make you a bet it fails before 30, most members here have had failures around 23K. I believe Bob just had his transmission rebuilt correct me if I am wrong, again why are we beating this to death, any one can do as they please, when it comes to there car, Kenny Brown upgrades the Brakes on his car, he now recommends the transmission as well. I believe there are Trilogy owners with upgraded Brakes maybe they bought them there selves I don't know. Do as you please. I know three of the top transmission builders in the USA they have all said its plain wrong not to upgrade the transmission because it will fail, again answer me one question why would you trust it when its been failing in N/A cars. I am of the opinion if it will go wrong it will with me, I sure don't want it to happen to you, not after you spent all that money with me buying a supercharger kit, all I am doing is trying to ensure you have a completely solid car when you leave my shop, because I have seen theses transmissions fail, and some of these failures were on cars without superchargers. Ask any Marauder owner that has done the Bear up grade, ask them if there is any comparison over the stock Brakes ask Taft ask Tom Adair and I believe, and I am sure you will corect me if I am wrong, but I think Logan and Bob have brake upgrades you think all these people like to waiste money. It's about safety, now I am done with this, it was never started by me to compare Supercharger kits,again for every ones info I like like Jerry Barnes, I am not here to sling mud. This started out as what is best mod, then some one stated why mod the car at all just bolt on the SC,so are you saying all the members here have waisted time and money, I will let the members here answer that. as Logan has said ENOUGH SAID.

[TAF]

I will let the members here answer that. as Logan has said ENOUGH SAID.
I don't feel I've waisted a penny on mods to my car, which mostly went to Dennis Reinhart. Having the Dyno-proven most powerful N/A car here...I commend Dennis for helping me get all I can get out of the platform I purchased from Mercury.

[bigslim]

Dennis, I never slung any mud. I just stated a fact about the brakes. If you read my post I said that the cars could use a brake upgrade. You started the mud slinging by saying that your kit produced more horsepower. That may be true but it is in the upper range. Your torque is not as usable as the Trilogy. The Trilogy has more bottom end usable torque where one needs it. Also with this kind of torque band there really is no need for the torque converter. Yes, the trannie could also use some work but it does not take away form the fact that the Trilogy 1 car has been trouble free for over 20,000 miles. Time will tell if the Trilogy car has any trouble with the trannie before 30,000 miles. I'm sure that if something happens it will be known. They have nothing to hide with that product. I'm sure that whatever anybody choses to do with their car in terms of upgrades they will be happy. I have read many happy people with both products. I am sure both are good products for these fine cars.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Jim read my post it now does not sling mud. I just have got tired of the way this post has gone, do what ever your heart desires if you think you know more than the top three transmision builders in the United States and a Ford Engineer who helped design the 4R70W, FYI Steve Babcock has asked me about my Transmission mods, and is going to talk to Jerry about future upgrades probably to be made at Ford,The stock 4R70W was never designed to take the power THAT ANY ONES SC KIT MAKES.

[Logan]

...this thread is closed. Everyone's made great points.