Why 180 more HP = more brakes!

[sailsmen]

S/C a vehicle that increases the HP by 180 or 78% IMHO = increase brakes.

For the purposes of this discussion we all operate our MM's in a finite space.

It's true that a nons/c MM and an s/c MM will stop in approximately the same distance when both are going the same speed.

The purpose of brakes is to stop and or slow due to the finite space we operate our MM's in.

Any vehicle with 180 or 78% more HP will accelerate quicker, there by reaching a Higher speed which reduces the time one can operate in our finite space and lengthens the space required to stop and or slow.

For those that have an s/c for 1) show car purposes or 2) show unhuman like restraint in never utilizing the 180 or 78% additional hp to accelerate quicker then increase brakes are not needed. ;)

[Logan]

Such is why me and Todd @ TCE got acquainted at the same time I got my supercharger. I figure the 14" Rotors and 6 piston calipers will increase my braking power a huge amount over stock brakes...

[Todd TCE]

Such is why me and Todd @ TCE got acquainted at the same time I got my supercharger. I figure the 14" Rotors and 6 piston calipers will increase my braking power a huge amount over stock brakes...


This doesn't quite add up.

Just because you add 75%HP to a car does not mean you need 75% more brakes. It's not about the horse power or any change in mass, it's then about velocity. Assuming that you drive faster with the s/c you could make the case that you need more brake to stop, but only if your terminal velocity is higher.

This would imply that if you have forced induction and an increase in HP by say 75% that you now drive 78mph in the 45 zone and 114 in the 65. That's 75% faster. Somehow I don't think this is really the case.

Then there's the 'what defines more brakes' anyhow? For most of us this is more mass not more torque. Torque is nice, but firm feel and mass for repeated stopping is what most folks find beneficial. Now for grins if we apply the same logic to the speed above, you'll need 21" rotors to get that 75% gain in diameter for example. hmmm.
:burnout:

[sailsmen]

:confused:
I am confused who is saying a 75% increase in HP = a need for a 75% increase in brakes?

[Todd TCE]

:confused:
I am confused who is saying a 75% increase in HP = a need for a 75% increase in brakes?


It was just 'fun with numbers' to see what the 75% would mean.

But still the added hp doesn't require more brakes as it is still dependant upon the velocity of the car, not its power. You can need more brakes without more power just as easily. Of course many folks can do just fine on stock brakes. It's more about meeting you driving needs than the amount of power the car produces. Logic would imply that if you added more power that you'd likely drive faster, but is it faster or quicker?

I'm still visualizing those 21" rotors though....lol

[TAF]

I feel it's a matter of "balance"...more performance should = more safety standards...and better brakes mean more safety.

A modded car will generally accelerate faster, and more than likely "live" more in the upper MPH...if not...then why would you do performance mods?

I LOVE my Brakes...and anyone that drives my car...it's ALWAYS one of the first things they tell me after the ride...
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/83DSC00591-med.JPG

[FordNut]

My $.02 worth:
If the high power and low power cars are driven the same way, there is no real "need" for increased braking ability. But with higher power, you tend to accelerate faster so it is likely that it will spend more time at the higher speeds even if the top speeds driven are the same. More time at the higher speeds means more frequent braking from the higher speeds. So increased braking makes sense in that regard.

Also, if two cars with equal power but one has improved braking over the other are on a road race track or mountain road, the one with improved braking is much less likely to experience brake fade due to overheating. And it should have shorter stopping distances given everything else (speed, weight) is equal.

But is a brake upgrade critical, I would say not necessarily so. For me anyway, it will come after performance and tranny upgrades.

[Agent M79]

I think of the brake upgrades from 2 standpoints:

Single Event Braking: In 5,000 miles with my MM I have had about 3 instances where stopping in a shorter distance would have been advantageous. Most recently, I nearly pasted a near-sighted fox. If I could have stopped 10 feet shorter I could have avoided having to leave my lane. And before we examine that episode with a microscope, no I wasn't speeding, and no one was in the other lane, and the fox escaped without harm.

Multiple Event Braking: I have an alternate back-road route I take to and from working when there are delays or accidents on the interstate. I use my brakes alot on this route and in one section in particular heats them up real good. I am assuming that better brakes would cool better and fade less.

I don't think new brakes are a requirement for the MM. I think new brakes are a requirement for me.

[2005Marauder]

To add to the discussion. TIRES are just as important as brakes. IMHO the act of stopping a vehicle is like a three-legged stool. If any ONE leg breaks--the stool falls over. BRAKES, TIRES, and the DRIVER are the three legs. You can have the biggest, meanest brakes, but with no traction then you have no stopping ability.

[Marauderman]

...and anyone that drives my car...it's ALWAYS one of the first things they tell me after the ride...
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/83DSC00591-med.JPG

Huh....it's usually the second item in my case.....

[TAF]

Huh....it's usually the second item in my case.....Braggart!!!



<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>brag·gart http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.refe rence.com%2Fsearch%3Fr%3D2%26q %3DBraggart) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (brhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifrt)

n. <DL><DD>One given to loud, empty boasting; a bragger.</DD></DL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>;)

[junehhan]

Out of curiosity, what's the biggest difference between the TCE 6 piston front brake upgrade, and the Baer 2 piston 14 inch upgrade? Is there any performance difference between the two, and what else is difference besides type of caliper?

[TAF]

Out of curiosity, what's the biggest difference between the TCE 6 piston front brake upgrade, and the Baer 2 piston 14 inch upgrade? Is there any performance difference between the two, and what else is difference besides type of caliper?
I'll let Todd from TCE speak to his product. You can read all about the Baer Brakes at www.baer.com (http://www.baer.com)

[Todd TCE]

I'll let Todd from TCE speak to his product. You can read all about the Baer Brakes at www.baer.com (http://www.baer.com)

The biggest difference is the caliper. One is a floating design part, the other a fixed mount. In the case of the 14 from me, the caliper is also a radial mount but that's more hype than performance. In comparing the two kits, both have what I call a narrow fit, meaning they are low profile to the wheel. Now in my case if you purchased more brake friendly wheels you could do better from me on calipers as I could put you into a full size, mega beefy six pot. At about 1" wider!

My 13 is on par rotor width with what the Baer is (I think) at 1.10 width. Not bad for normal day to day use. The larger 14 from me is at 1.25 wide and offers more heat management than the narrower models. You DO NOT increase torque or performanc with wider rotors, only thermal capacity.

Baer plusses come from more narrow fit applications then I can 'usually' match, but that's changing with the narrrow six. The pads for them are more readily available from local suppliers. And 'usually' their kits cost less. Some anyhow. That's the norm on their 'vette rotor packages, but this one here is two piece so I'm not sure. The vette rotors are quite costly and I've done more than a few 'replacements' to two piece.

The TCE/Wilwood comes out ahead for caliper options, and flexability of altering the kit later on. In the case of the MM however this is not quite so much as other kits. Replacement parts generally cost a bit less and pads for the Wilwoods out number the PBRs by many. You do however need to know where to look and learn at speak pad lingo.

All things considered, I'd say these two as they sit are at about a dead heat. But I'll take the edge for those who fit wider wheels where I can exploit the caliper options a bit more.

Hope this helps. No slam intended on either, just some thoughts on 10yrs of answering the same questions......

[TAF]

Well done, Todd!

I appreciate how you handled this :up:

[yamahaSHO]

I know if I had a SC Maurder(or and SC car), I would be driving faster more often... Meaning I would be on the brakes more often... Bigger brakes would definitely be nice to have!!! :bows:

[DONP1217]

The money spent on better brakes could be spent on a good driving school. The techniques learned in the driving school would allow you to use your stock brakes to their max and allow you to handle your car better in it's entirety. Most of us don't have unlimited funds and we need to pick and choose what we upgrade. My opinion is that some of the money we have to upgrade our cars should be spent on upgrading our driving skills.

I am not saying that upgrading the brakes are a BAD idea. I am just saying that the average person would benefit more from improving their high end driving skills. If you are already an expert driver by all means upgrade your brakes because you will be able to utilize their full potential.

This post is not meant to offend anyone. I am just looking at things from a different perspective.

[TAF]

If you are already an expert driver by all means upgrade your brakes because you will be able to utilize their full potential.
"I'm an EXCELLENT driver..."
http://www.alltheweb.com/r?ck_sm=812dedda&rpos=2&oid=-&rpge=1&ref=200340086&r=http%3A%2F%2Fcinema.ines.ro% 2Factori%2Fpictures%2Fdustinho ffman-rainman.jpg

[SergntMac]

I like different perspective too, and living in a congested urban environment, and driving city streets daily, I have to look at this from an end-users perspective. Kindly note, this is a scenario, and not my customary driving habits.

If I took you for a ride in my first N/A MM, and left the stop light WOT, you would see 70 MPH on my speedo in one city block.

If I took you for a ride in my second and supercharged MM, you would see 100 MPH on my speedo in that same distance.

Would you be more comfortable knowing I am a professionally trained driver?

Or, that I have a BaerClaw brake upgrade kit installed?

Just wondering...

Whether it's safety, or cost efficiency, more horse power mandates more brake power...IMHO.

[DONP1217]

I'll take that ride with a professionally trained driver with stock brakes over an average driver with upgraded brakes any day of the week. Just because you have awesome brakes doesn't mean you can use them well or even up to the same effectiveness as a professionally trained driver with stock brakes.

I don't know how many of you ride motorcycles but I used to ride with a guy named Jack. Jack rode an 80 HP early 90's Ducati 900SS. The guys on Jap crotch rockets with 150 HP used to laugh at his little 80 HP bike because it was slow. The look on these guy's faces when Jack passed them on the inside of a turn, dragging his knee puck on the ground, was priceless. It would be even funnier when he'd wait at the end of the road with his helmet off for the guys on their 150 HP bikes to catch up. They wanted to know what he did to the bike to make it so fast. They never considered that he was just a much better rider.

Those guys had better handling and more powerful bikes with better suspensions and better brakes but they couldn't ride a bike like Jack. Jack also never road beyond 80% of his abilities on the street. Those riders behind Jack were often using 90 - 100% of there skills in a feeble attempt to catch up. Who was safer, Jack or the other riders?

If you are an expert driver, and not just in your own mind, and you are finding the limits or your brakes, suspension, tires, etc. on the street then by all means upgrade them. Get those new brakes, get that sway bar, put in better springs etc. For the average driver, on this board, money is better spent on upgrading their driving skills instead of their car. Often times being able to "drive out" of an accident and see situations before they happen is more important than having the latest greatest brakes.

[jgc61sr2002]

IMO you can never up grade the brakes too much. Good brakes are most important. If you can't stop you are in a world of trouble.

[junehhan]

Just like driver skill, I agree that you also can't have too much braking power either. When my factory pads wear out, i'm torn between the TCE 13 inch kit with 6 piston calipers, or the Baer 14 inch with 2 piston PBR calipers. The only problem with having too much braking power, is if some dumbass is following you too closely and not paying attention when you do an emergency stop.

[MENINBLK]

The only problem with having too much braking power, is if some dumbass is following you too closely and not paying attention when you do an emergency stop.

This is exactly what I was about to bring up.
With these better brakes, we will need to pay a lot more attention
to the Rear View Mirror, prior to stomping on the brake pedal,
or else we will have the person behind us sitting uncomfortably in our trunk...


As SergntMac said, with increased HP comes increased Acceleration and increased Velocity.
If we still have the FINITE SPACE that we had with a NA MM, then we will need to increase
our braking power to compensate for the additional velocity we reach within that finite space.

Lets say we have a starting point of 1000 ft (hyperthetical - do not take this as truth) and we can reach
a top speed of 75MPH and stop, all within that distance with a fully stock, NA Marauder, that would be our base.
Once you add your HP mods, whether they be SC or Turbo, you add weight, HP, and Acceleration.
Now your goal is to be able to achieve a FASTER top speed and still bring the Maruder to a stop within 1000 ft.
To balance the HP mods you need to increase your braking strength.
This is what everyone is trying to say about MORE HP = MORE BRAKES.
You can't complete the goal without balance.
Once the car is balanced, you should still be able to accelerate and brake for the same distance and duration,
while achieveing a higher velocity than the stock NA MM does.

[Agent M79]

I don't have a supercharged MM and I run with the stock brakes. I recently had an opportunity to take a supercharged MM with Baer brakes for a test spin.

The braking was impressive and I used it. The car stopped in an obviously shorter distance than my stock brakes. I was able to whoa it down from a higher speed acheived in less space and time and bring it to a halt in a distance obviously shorter than my MM.

I am not an expert driver nor have I had any formal training. The amount of braking my daily-driver skills can utilize was obvious and controlled. Did I leave even more braking potential on the table due to my limited experience level? Probably, but for what I was doing, the additional power that was within my "experience envelope" was obvious.

My experiences with the upgraded brakes took my theorized desire for additional braking power and made it real. But, as I said before, additional braking isn't necessarily for every MM, just mine (when I can afford to do it).

[kbmg]

I get this question all the time with people inquiring on the Marauder S Package. Why do I need bigger brakes and better suspension? As you may know Kenny won't supercharge a car without the corresponding chassis and braking upgrades.

Here's a couple of thoughts. We're driving 4200 pound cars with anywhere from 300 to 450+ horspower. It takes alot of effort to haul these sleds down from speed. This could be the difference in hitting a kid running out into the street to get his ball and stopping 20 feet shorter. You can never have enough brake.

One analogy that Kenny likes to use is to think of a Porsche 911. If you purchase a base 911 yet get a good handling sporty car. When buy a 911 Turbo you get a high powered engine with the proper suspension, tires, body and brakes upgrades etcetera to get the full potential out of the car.

Just another $.02 worth.