Wrongful Imprisonment

[SHERIFF]

Totally unrelated to Marauder, as this section of the forums suggest.

I want a "civilian" opinion on this.......

Marvin Anderson, jailed for 15 years for a rape he did not commit. Our legislature approved and paid $1.2 million compensation for the mistake. ($80,000 a year tax free)

Jeffry Cox, paid $750,000 after being jailed for 11 years for a murder he did not commit. ($68,182 a year tax free)

Julius Ruffin, has asked for $3 million from the legilature for a rape he did not commit. Was jailed for 21 years before DNA testing proved him innocent. ($142,286 a year tax free)

Beverly Monroe, asking for $1.6 million after spending 7 years in jail for the murder of her boyfriend before a judge overturned her conviction. ($228,572 a year tax free)

Are these people getting too much? Too little? Would you sit in jail for 15 years for $80,000 a year? That's a pretty sweet deal if you stop and think about it. And you are a millionaire when you get out. If I was 20 years old again, I honestly believe I would sit in jail for 15 years for $1.2 million dollars. Your thoughts?

[woaface]

Who figures out the worth? I mean, does someone just pull those numbers out of their ass or what? Sounds alright to me I guess, just as long as it doesn't get to be stupid.

[STLThunder]

I don't think I would take any amount of money to sit in jail for any period of time. From what I see and hear on the news jail is not a fun place and can be hazardous to your health.

These people are getting a lot of money, but as they have been proven innocent and have lost a good portion of their lives, I think they should get it.

Our legal system is not perfect, but perhaps these monetary awards will make prosecutors more inclined to be thorough and find the true criminal.

By the way, I am a republican, veteran, patriot and support the death penalty, not a bleeding heart liberal.

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

[SHERIFF]

Who figures out the worth? I mean, does someone just pull those numbers out of their ass or what?


Virginia lawmakers decide on and set the amount.

[SHERIFF]

...... they have been proven innocent and have lost a good portion of their lives, I think they should get it.





I agree 100%.

[jfclancy]

I don't think I would take any amount of money to sit in jail for any period of time. From what I see and hear on the news jail is not a fun place and can be hazardous to your health.

These people are getting a lot of money, but as they have been proven innocent and have lost a good portion of their lives, I think they should get it.

Our legal system is not perfect, but perhaps these monetary awards will make prosecutors more inclined to be thorough and find the true criminal.

By the way, I am a republican, veteran, patriot and support the death penalty, not a bleeding heart liberal.

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

Nope :shake: not only no but hell NO! I would not sit in Jail for any amount of money.
However how much of the money really went to the folks and how much to the LAWYERS? I do agree they should get as much as the legistature decides.

Joe Clancy

[David JP]

Totally unrelated to Marauder, as this section of the forums suggest.

I want a "civilian" opinion on this.......

Marvin Anderson, jailed for 15 years for a rape he did not commit. Our legislature approved and paid $1.2 million compensation for the mistake. ($80,000 a year tax free)

Jeffry Cox, paid $750,000 after being jailed for 11 years for a murder he did not commit. ($68,182 a year tax free)

Julius Ruffin, has asked for $3 million from the legilature for a rape he did not commit. Was jailed for 21 years before DNA testing proved him innocent. ($142,286 a year tax free)

Beverly Monroe, asking for $1.6 million after spending 7 years in jail for the murder of her boyfriend before a judge overturned her conviction. ($228,572 a year tax free)

Are these people getting too much? Too little? Would you sit in jail for 15 years for $80,000 a year? That's a pretty sweet deal if you stop and think about it. And you are a millionaire when you get out. If I was 20 years old again, I honestly believe I would sit in jail for 15 years for $1.2 million dollars. Your thoughts?
80K a year to sit in a s-hole for 15 years? I'll pass. I think it takes alot of miss directed effort to convict someone who is innocent. After I sued the crap out of the municipality, I'd administer some "real justice" to a DA or two. Then they could put me away for something I was guilty for.

[ap2003]

NOPE, Nada, ...
All the above plus:
* loss of family
* loss of pursuit of happiness (Marauder??)
* mentally boring

I would alos suggest that those that were WORNGFULLY inprisoned should get twice the above... I mean hey, that persons life is ruined...

ap

[the fat bastid]

ya i get enough "mentally boring" from work.
Being in a federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison is not something
i'd consider for any amount of time for any amount of money.
things that go on in there have to screw you up in the head for life.

those people deserve thier money.

[gja]

I will take a moment to post a response to this.
There is NOTHING that would be fair reparation for years of my life being wasted in jail.
Jail is, by design, a horrible place to be.
It exacts a toll on the mind, body and soul.
It is a place that by its very nature tears down a person’s individuality and spirit.
I would certainly turn bitter at a system that allowed me to be incarcerated while the true perpetrator went free.
Anyone that has to face this most heinous and unjust situation has my undying sympathy, and they deserve EVERY penny they can get.
I think the entire line of people responsible from judge to jury should be forced to pay the settlement, not the taxpayers.
We NEED more accountability in the justice system.
We NEED more care to be taken.
And we NEED, once guilt is beyond ANY doubt, for more severe penalties.
I will now hop off the soapbox.

[SHERIFF]

We need to keep in mind..... these people would still be sitting in jail had DNA testing not come along when it did. Plus.......... there's thousands of defendants nationwide that still claim to be innocent and can't get DNA testing lined up for one reason or another.

See, you guys are opening my mind up now. Sitting in jail for 15 to 20 years for a crime YOU know YOU didn't commit...... hell yeah, they deserve the money they got..... and more! The amounts now look low based on "mental anguish".

I changed my mind..... I will not sit in jail for 15 years unless it pays $200,000 a year. :)

[MarauderMark]

well if someone is going to jail better make sure they did it 150% otherwise dont convict them .and if they are wrongfully accused no amount of money could compinsate for any amount of jail time..

[teamrope]

The prisons are full of people who say they are innocent, weather they are or not. However, I agree that if you are imprisoned for a crime that you did not commit, then by all means you should be compensated. I feel that the dollar amount should have a just formula, say 150% of what you would have made had this not happened.

As far as the death penalty, I am all for it in a case where the perp is not convicted on circumstantial evidence.

I grew up in a very rural area of California. In 1975 my little brother’s best friend murdered my mother. (In cold blood, not an accident.) The only reason he was caught, was my mother spent the last 15 minutes of her life talking to one of our Deputies.

She told the deputy (who was a close family friend, thank God) 3 times who did it. Because he was only 13 years old, he was sentenced to 6 months in honor farm. He was out and back home for Christmas.

10 years later (Give or take), he moves to Washington State in the mid 80’s and proceeds to rape and kill a 15-year-old girl up here. He was handed down the death penalty for that.

In the mid 90’s he gets the case overturned on appeal, and Kitsap county has to re-try the case. This time they go for life in prison, reducing his chances for appeal. Thanks to DNA evidence, at the scene that he washed out the vehicle that he used to dump the body so the convition held.

As you can imagine, I have a different perception on this issue than most people. As far as I am concerned another family could have been spared a lot of grief if the judge in the sentencing phase of my mom’s case would have handed down a more realistic sentence. There should be some mechanism in place where the family of the second victim could have sued that judge personally.

Just my two cents...Well time to get off my http://www.yelmtel.com/~teamrope/pics/soap.gifbox

[MapleLeafMerc]

A compelling story, teamrope, and a good argument for tougher sentencing. I cannot claim to understand your grief, only offer my support.

I do think that prison time is not effective in every situation. A lot of first time offenders will be 'scared straight' after prison time, but some re-offenders come to see it as a shelter of last resort. They aren't scared any more, and get used to it.

If I was 'boss for a day' we would try some corporal punishment instead of jail. Nothing like a little pain to focus your mind on your mistake. It might deter some before they become murderers.

As far as the original question, no amount of money can replace lost time accurately or fairly. I would not want to have to decide how much money to award.

[teamrope]

Appreciate it Mapleleaf! Thankfully The Deputy was a close familly freind, so at least she was not alone. Time has helped a lot too, but it's something you never forget. :depress:

Hey Sheriff, If you hadn't noticed, The 95 GM sold yesterday! :banana2:

[Hoosier Daddy]

"...Our legal system is not perfect, but perhaps these monetary awards will make prosecutors more inclined to be thorough and find the true criminal..."
The only way to compel prosecutors to be more thorough in their "endeavors" is to hold the lawyers, judges, & juries accountable for their actions - make them personally ante up the compensatory funds for the newly exonerated person - they are the true culpable parties in the wrong-doing.


"...There is NOTHING that would be fair reparation for years of my life being wasted in jail. Jail is, by design, a horrible place to be. It exacts a toll on the mind, body and soul. It is a place that by its very nature tears down a person’s individuality and spirit. I would certainly turn bitter at a system that allowed me to be incarcerated while the true perpetrator went free. Anyone that has to face this most heinous and unjust situation has my undying sympathy, and they deserve EVERY penny they can get. I think the entire line of people responsible from judge to jury should be forced to pay the settlement, not the taxpayers.

We NEED more accountability in the justice system. We NEED more care to be taken. And we NEED, once guilt is beyond ANY doubt, for more severe penalties..."
Amen!!


"...I agree that if you are imprisoned for a crime that you did not commit, then by all means you should be compensated. I feel that the dollar amount should have a just formula, say 150% of what you would have made had this not happened..."
Exactly how do you propose we "predict" the potential future of an individual? How do you know what that "misguided" person might have grown up to be? How do you know that that individual wouldn't have turned his/her life around & been a significant contributor to society? A Donald Trump? A Bob Hope? A Mother Theresa? You don't. Therefore, there is no "formula" that can be fairly applied to this scenario. Mere exoneration is not enough. The municipalities responsible for the wrongful incarceration of any person should be held accountable for their actions & there should be absolutely no way for them to "pass the (remuneration) buck" onto the taxpayers.

That's my $0.02 worth.

[SHERIFF]

Exactly how do you propose we "predict" the potential future of an individual? How do you know what that "misguided" person might have grown up to be?



In all seriousness, even if he became nothing more than the town drunk, he might have spent one of his wine dollars on a Power Ball Lottery Ticket and won $169 million dollars if he had been out of jail. A little far fetched, but entirely possible none the less. :)

[SHERIFF]

The prisons are full of people who say they are innocent,


They sure are. The scary part is this....... when a request for DNA is approved or executed....... 99% of the time it proves the defendant was indeed innocent just as he said. Another scary part is "evidence" used in a trial to convict a person is suddenly "lost" when DNA is approved in some cases.

Let me tell you about a family we had in our area for a long time..... the wife would run down and get an assault and battery warrant for her husband on Friday afternoons. It happened so often the court finally started believing it was true, or else the lady wouldn't keep getting warrants. The judge started convicting the guy. After the third conviction and spending a month in jail for it, the guy decided it was time to end this vicious cycle and marriage. But he wanted satisfaction first. With cooperation from a police department, and the guy paying for the officer's time, the guy stayed within sight of a police officer at all times on a Friday afternoon. Cutting grass, washing the car, sitting in the driveway smoking a cigarette. Sure enough the wife left and went and got a warrant. Once she was arrested she confessed she was only doing it so he would be jailed for the weekend, and she could run around unmolested with her boyfriend. She even confessed she would walk in the kitchen or living room and bounce herself off something just to create "bruises and marks". After the truth was proven..... the guy didn't even have to pay for the officer's time. The DA authorized the city to pick up the tab. And the lady went to jail for a very long time.

The point being...... the guy always claimed he was innocent. Nobody believed him. Shame the way people use and abuse the system.

[teamrope]

Exactly how do you propose we "predict" the potential future of an individual? How do you know what that "misguided" person might have grown up to be? How do you know that that individual wouldn't have turned his/her life around & been a significant contributor to society? A Donald Trump? A Bob Hope? A Mother Theresa? You don't. Therefore, there is no "formula" that can be fairly applied to this scenario. Mere exoneration is not enough. The municipalities responsible for the wrongful incarceration of any person should be held accountable for their actions & there should be absolutely no way for them to "pass the (remuneration) buck" onto the taxpayers.

That's my $0.02 worth.

I just threw that out for an Idea, not the answer...Sorry if it seemed that way. There is no consistancy in the settlments that have already been awarded based on the figures Sheriff posted.

[SHERIFF]

Mere exoneration is not enough. The municipalities responsible for the wrongful incarceration of any person should be held accountable for their actions & there should be absolutely no way for them to "pass the (remuneration) buck" onto the taxpayers.




I missed that remark on my last trip through this subject.

How can the locality be held accountable IF a victim IDs a suspect in a lineup, and testifies that she is 100% sure it is the man who ***** her? Most of these people being set free by DNA testing were positively identified by the victims, not the police. Especially in rape cases.

I disagree with you. The taxpayers want the "criminal justice system". When this system makes a mistake, the taxpayers are accountable for cleaning up their messes and making compensation as well. The taxpayers can't have their cake and eat it too.

[THE_INTERCEPTOR]

If I was 20 years old again, I honestly believe I would sit in jail for 15 years for $1.2 million dollars. Your thoughts?


Don't take this the wrong way Sheriff, as I am not trying to be a smartalec, but I honestly don't think you'd wanna do 15 years in prison. After doing one week in prison of your 15 year sentence, I think you'd be ready to leave.

I've been imprisoned overnight before for total BS. DC police are morons.

Anyway, Needless to say, after being in there for about 6 hours, I could not WAIT to get out. :depress:

[Hoosier Daddy]

"...I just threw that out for an Idea, not the answer...Sorry if it seemed that way. There is no consistancy in the settlments that have already been awarded based on the figures Sheriff posted..."No apology necessary. I was just saying that there was no way for anyone to predict the future of any individual (not even their own future), even if the individual was completely incorrigible.

[Hoosier Daddy]

"...How can the locality be held accountable IF a victim IDs a suspect in a lineup, and testifies that she is 100% sure it is the man who ***** her? Most of these people being set free by DNA testing were positively identified by the victims, not the police. Especially in rape cases. I disagree with you. The taxpayers want the "criminal justice system". When this system makes a mistake, the taxpayers are accountable for cleaning up their messes and making compensation as well. The taxpayers can't have their cake and eat it too..."

I can see your point, but I believe that most "victims" are generally too emotional & too many mistakes can easily be made (i.e., "it was dark"..."he was 6' tall"..."he smelled like..."). There's plenty of margin for error there.

It sounds like you're suggesting that the "criminal justice system" need not be compelled to make certain that their case is air-tight. Doesn't the "burden of proof" lie squarely on the shoulders of the prosecution? Shouldn't that mean that they've exhausted all possibilities & have excluded everyone but the accused? Where does the onus lie, if not on the lawyers, judges & juries?

I know it's not a perfect system, but.....

[SHERIFF]

It sounds like you're suggesting that the "criminal justice system" need not be compelled to make certain that their case is air-tight.



Perhaps. Look at the errors in this case overlooked by the "system" during the prosecution, I highlighted them in bold font.......

01/28/04 12:29

GRATERFORD, Pa. (AP) - A man who spent four decades in prison for the rape and murder of a 12-year-old girl was freed Wednesday following a long court battle to force the state to honor a governor's clemency order.

Louis Mickens-Thomas, 75, has long maintained his innocence in the death of Edith Connor, whose battered body was found in an alley behind his Philadelphia shoe shop in 1964. He said fraud by a police crime lab led to his conviction.

He told reporters near Graterford state prison moments after his release that he was looking forward to seeing his family, including his daughter Mary, born two months after he went to prison.

``I'm not a rapist. I'm not interested in little girls,'' he said.

Mickens-Thomas will live indefinitely at a halfway house in Allentown.

Supporters persuaded the late Gov. Robert Casey to commute his life sentence in 1995 but state parole officials and subsequent administrations had refused to free him.

The family of the dead child had lobbied furiously to keep Mickens-Thomas in prison, calling him an unrepentant killer who remains a threat to society.

But a federal appeals court ruled Jan. 14 that the parole board showed ``vindictiveness'' in refusing to consider parole, and ordered his release.

His impending freedom had infuriated the family of the dead child.

``I think of this. I look at this. And I can't sleep at night over it,'' said Prince Connor, a retired police officer who was 14 when his sister was killed in 1964. ``There is no closure, no justice. This has been a fiasco from day one. My family felt that this guy should have gotten the death penalty.''

At his first trial, a crime lab technician testified that paint chips from the shoe shop and bristles from a shoe brush had been found on the girl's clothing. Mickens-Thomas was convicted, but later granted a new trial after the technician was unmasked as a fraud who had never graduated high school.

He was convicted again after the lab's director testified that he, not the discredited technician, analyzed the particles. (Sure!!!)

Mickens-Thomas spent the next three decades as a model prisoner and earned a bachelor's degree from Villanova University through correspondence classes.

DNA analysis was not available in the 1960s, and it is too late for a test now. All physical evidence in the case was discarded in the early 1990s.

Centurion Ministries, a New Jersey-based group that fights for the release of prisoners it believes are innocent, ultimately persuaded Casey, a Democrat, to commute Mickens-Thomas' sentence.

That decision made him eligible for parole in 1996, but two Republican successors, Gov. Tom Ridge and Gov. Mark Schweiker, refused to release him. As recently as last spring, parole officials argued that Mickens-Thomas remained an ``unrepentant dangerous sexual offender.''

The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Jan. 14 that the board had acted in ``bad faith'' in refusing to consider parole, and ordered him released.

Connor's family notes that the murder conviction was not Mickens-Thomas' first brush with the law. Before his incarceration, police investigated allegations that he attempted to sexually assault a 14-year-old baby sitter. A second woman told police Mickens-Thomas once choked her with a scarf until she fainted. He was not prosecuted in either case.

During their evaluation of Mickens-Thomas last year, parole board members said he continued to display ``anger and resentment toward women.''

[LVMarauder]

I have to say they should get a whole lot more than that. These people have had their lives taken from them, by the government. How much would it suck to be someone's ***** in prision (no pun intended). If I ever got falsely convicted and then over turned I think the prosecuting attorney should be arrested and have some nice weekend nights with my former cell mate, a 6'6" , 250 lb Monster named bubba, see what kind of pillow talk he comes up with.

[David JP]

We need to keep in mind..... these people would still be sitting in jail had DNA testing not come along when it did. Plus.......... there's thousands of defendants nationwide that still claim to be innocent and can't get DNA testing lined up for one reason or another.

See, you guys are opening my mind up now. Sitting in jail for 15 to 20 years for a crime YOU know YOU didn't commit...... hell yeah, they deserve the money they got..... and more! The amounts now look low based on "mental anguish".

I changed my mind..... I will not sit in jail for 15 years unless it pays $200,000 a year. :)
Well, let me call you out on that one Sheriff.
Now, I assume by your name that you are either an active peace
officer or retired. If that is the case, I find it disturbing that you would
trivalize the fact that innocent people do go to jail. Our judicial system, in theory, is designed to prevent that, but unfortunately it occurs much too frequently. It's called railroading and is used for political purposes
(i.e. prosecution conviction rates, police arrest rates).

Your original post and replys lend me to believe that you feel these poor saps are overcompensated. "80k-200k" Har, Har. There is no formula to monetarily quantify lost years, and hopefully, the majority of those in law enforcecement will do their all to protect the rights of the innocent, from the beginning of the process to the end. Otherwise, a human life doesn't amount to a hill of beans, does it.

[SHERIFF]

Well, let me call you out on that one Sheriff.....
Our judicial system, in theory, is designed to prevent (wrongful imprisonment), but unfortunately it occurs much too frequently. It's called railroading and is used for political purposes (i.e. prosecution conviction rates, police arrest rates).

Trust me, you have me pegged wrong. I agree with what you say 100%. I neither condemn or defend cops or the system for the most part, I try to tell it like it is.


Your original post and replys lend me to believe that you feel these poor saps are overcompensated. "80k-200k" Har, Har.

When the subject started, yes I thought perhaps they receive too much. But after seeing other's opinions I also agree they should get more. I wouldn't care if any of the defendants listed got $250,000 a year compensation, it's a drop in the bucket in our state budget anyway.

[teamrope]

In some cases I could see these poor guys loosing everything, including wives and children. THere is no way in he11 you can put a price on that.

Do we have a concensus then?

[teamrope]

I disagree with you. The taxpayers want the "criminal justice system". When this system makes a mistake, the taxpayers are accountable for cleaning up their messes and making compensation as well. The taxpayers can't have their cake and eat it too.

Well said!

[SHERIFF]

In some cases I could see these poor guys loosing everything, including wives and children. THere is no way in he11 you can put a price on that.

Do we have a concensus then?


Many moons ago I had to fly out to Santa Cruz, California and return a prisoner to our courts. He had skipped out on parole and had not paid his fine and costs.

While flying back I learned he had gotten married, bought a home, and had obtained an excellent job. He was really cleaning his life up quite well.

To make a long story short..... bringing him and getting him before a judge took almost a month in total. He lost his job. His wife had a hell of a time making ends meet without just one month's income.

But..... once hearing how well the guy had done, the judge released him and told him to go on back to California. Where he now didn't have a job. I wish I knew how it all turned out.....

[jgc61sr2002]

Many moons ago I had to fly out to Santa Cruz, California and return a prisoner to our courts. He had skipped out on parole and had not paid his fine and costs.

While flying back I learned he had gotten married, bought a home, and had obtained an excellent job. He was really cleaning his life up quite well.

To make a long story short..... bringing him and getting him before a judge took almost a month in total. He lost his job. His wife had a hell of a time making ends meet without just one month's income.

But..... once hearing how well the guy had done, the judge released him and told him to go on back to California. Where he now didn't have a job. I wish I knew how it all turned out..... IMO he caused his own problem.

[jaywish]

Back to how much it is worth.

The only thing I could think was that someone wrongly convicted should get enough to be very comfortable on for a good 10 years or so plus health, state education & mental support. Give a person a chance to put their lives back together if they can.

Maybe a government job?

It would be nice to decide between someone who was a lowlife before hand and one who wasn't when discussing potential compensation but I just don't trust government.

If there was fraud involved on the part of any prosecuting party there are laws for dealing with them but they are probably not nearly strong enough.

Jay

[teamrope]

Back to how much it is worth.

The only thing I could think was that someone wrongly convicted should get enough to be very comfortable on for a good 10 years or so plus health, state education & mental support. Give a person a chance to put their lives back together if they can.

Maybe a government job?
Jay

Government Jobs don't pay enough. (Now if theat would be with WHite colar wages then that would work)

[jaywish]

Yes I'd say the government job would be in addition to enough $ so no worries for a long time.

Plus around here the government jobs pay pretty well.

I can only guess somebody who didn't deserve it would come out even more bent then sombody who did the crime & the time. So it might take a while for them to recover.

[Patrick]

I started to go thru this thread and stopped. gta said it for me!! Thanks :up: