Boss 5.0L VS 302 stroker kit

[blkZooM]

Just as the title says I am trying to figure out which way is best to start a built engine in and would like some help from you all. The 302 stroker kit would be going into a Teskid block.. I would like some pros and cons for both.. I've been going back and forth trying see which one would be more reliable, durable and better for future performance mods and lastly which one would cost less to build up.

I myself am leaning more towards the 302 stroker simply because I have the Teskid block already.. So let me hear some of your reasons if you had to choose one.

[SpartaPerformance]

My opinion the expense for a stroker kit you might as well get more cubes then 302 especially when you're starting with the foundation of a Teksid

[MOTOWN]

I like the teksid block build! i would consider a Boss block if it were availible in aluminum.

[blkZooM]

My opinion the expense for a stroker kit you might as well get more cubes then 302 especially when you're starting with the foundation of a Teksid

one of the reason I don't want to goo to big is because I have an Eaton swap planned for the near future, did some research and it seemed the bigger you go cubes wise the more difficult it gets to tune when F/I is put in the picture..

[SC Cheesehead]

one of the reason I don't want to goo to big is because I have an Eaton swap planned for the near future, did some research and it seemed the bigger you go cubes wise the more difficult it gets to tune when F/I is put in the picture..

FWIW, once you go with the Eaton, the extra cubes won't make much difference...

[Triple Threat]

Just as the title says I am trying to figure out which way is best to start a built engine in and would like some help from you all. The 302 stroker kit would be going into a Teskid block.. I would like some pros and cons for both.. I've been going back and forth trying see which one would be more reliable, durable and better for future performance mods and lastly which one would cost less to build up.

I myself am leaning more towards the 302 stroker simply because I have the Teskid block already.. So let me hear some of your reasons if you had to choose one.

I am having a boss 302 BB stroker being built now which will be 323 c.i (5.3 L). This block could be bored & stroked to 363 c.i. which will give more options in the future.

[dohc324ci]

Boss50 and sell the Teskid block would be my vote.

[montazch]

Agreed. Boss block is the better route. Stronger all the way around. Throw whatever boost you want at it and it will beg for more...

[LANDY]

FWIW, once you go with the Eaton, the extra cubes won't make much difference... with bigger cubic inch he will make more power with less boost, compression also makes a noticable difference.

[blkZooM]

with bigger cubic inch he will make more power with less boost, compression also makes a noticable difference.

compression ratio is going to be either 9:1 or 9:5 what scares me is what happens when I want to increase boost with a 9:5 CR. The research I've done so far is exactly what LANDY said

[na svt]

Make sure you also change you cams. Adding cubes to an engine efectively makes the cams "smaller", less aggressive. The Marauder cams are very mild as it is and don't have enough duration for the stock engine let alone a larger cubic inch combo, in a stroker or big bore will peak in the low-mid 5000s and in a BB/stroker they'll peak even lower.

This is something most people don't think about. I hear a lotta people complain about the power their stroker or big bore makes and how they peak so low in the RPM range. It's not uncommon to only pick up 20rwhp with a stock cammed, big bore or a stroker. With the proper cams the n/a rwhp/rwtq can be increased by 50 or more and this is with cams that will work with the lard *** marauder.



one of the reason I don't want to goo to big is because I have an Eaton swap planned for the near future, did some research and it seemed the bigger you go cubes wise the more difficult it gets to tune when F/I is put in the picture.

Where did you here this? More cubes equals the same power with less boost, less heat, longer engine life and more off-boost tq.


This block could be bored & stroked to 363 c.i. which will give more options in the future.

...and where di you here this? A 3.8" inch stroke is the longest the boss block can take and with a 3.7" bore the cubic inch volume is 327ci. The bore can't be enlarged past this point. The limiting factor in the bore diameter is the surface between the bores and with a 3.7" bore the sealing surface measures only .237". To acheive a 363" engine the bore would have to be taken out to 3.9", this would leave a sealing surface between the bores of only .037" which is less than the gap of your spark plugs.

A big bore 5.4 block can be made into a big bore and with a stock stroke will have 358ci. I just spec'd cams for two of these, both 12:1, n/a monsters that will make 550rw.


compression ratio is going to be either 9:1 or 9:5 what scares me is what happens when I want to increase boost with a 9:5 CR. The research I've done so far is exactly what LANDY said

You can safely run 9.5:1 compression with an eaton, centri or turbo.

[blkZooM]

Where did you here this? More cubes equals the same power with less boost, less heat, longer engine life and more off-boost tq.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-...d-modular.html
More so where I read it rather than where I herd it..



You can safely run 9.5:1 compression with an eaton, centri or turbo.

I know I can run it, but what would be the max boost I would be able to add later without detonation that's the real question.

In that thread a good amount of those people seem like running high boost with anything less than 8.5:1 is a total nightmare..

And my choice for for cams were the 96-98 cobra cams

[na svt]

http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-...d-modular.html

I know I can run it, but what would be the max boost I would be able to add later without detonation that's the real question.

In that thread a good amount of those people seem like running high boost with anything less than 8.5:1 is a total nightmare..

And my choice for for cams were the 96-98 cobra cams

Can't open the link.

96-98 intake cams are very mild for a stroker or big bore. Also, the exhaust cams are still the low duration pieces that were in the smaller engine. To get a similar powerband to stock, the larger engine needs to have 212-215 intake and 208-210 exhaust duration.

It's all in the tune, i know guys running flat tops and 15psi. Besides, an 8.5:1 compression engine makes about 50rwhp/50rwtq less than a 9.8:1 engine.

Higher static compression and less boost is the way to go.

With lower compression the intake cams need to be advanced to increase the dynamic compression ratio. This will increase off-boost tq/mid range and make it drive more like a higher static compression ratio engine.

[CBT]

What's your opinion of a stock Marauder block with the 96-98 cams upgrade along with Eaton swap?


Can't open the link.

96-98 intake cams are very mild for a stroker or big bore. Also, the exhaust cams are still the low duration pieces that were in the smaller engine. To get a similar powerband to stock, the larger engine needs to have 212-215 intake and 208-210 exhaust duration.

It's all in the tune, i know guys running flat tops and 15psi. Besides, an 8.5:1 compression engine makes about 50rwhp/50rwtq less than a 9.8:1 engine.

Higher static compression and less boost is the way to go.

With lower compression the intake cams need to be advanced to increase the dynamic compression ratio. This will increase off-boost tq/mid range and make it drive more like a higher static compression ratio engine.

[1 Bad Merc]

If you are really worried about detonation you can look at Alky kits. Alot of the Turbo guys use them when they crank the boost up on GN's, etc. to control detonation.

[na svt]

What's your opinion of a stock Marauder block with the 96-98 cams upgrade along with Eaton swap?
since the eaton makes enough boost to ruin the stock block there's no need to add cams.

[blkZooM]

Wonder why it isn't working anymore more.. Lets try this..

http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-dohc/601010-high-compression-vs-low-compression-boosted-modular-4.html

What cams would you recommend Na Svt

[blkZooM]

If you are really worried about detonation you can look at Alky kits. Alot of the Turbo guys use them when they crank the boost up on GN's, etc. to control detonation.

Hmm idk this car will also be my DD albeit a very fast one hopefully when its all said and done.. So I'm trying to stay away from the meth.. I was looking into Killer chiller though.

[SC Cheesehead]

compression ratio is going to be either 9:1 or 9:5 what scares me is what happens when I want to increase boost with a 9:5 CR. The research I've done so far is exactly what LANDY said


http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-...d-modular.html
More so where I read it rather than where I herd it..




I know I can run it, but what would be the max boost I would be able to add later without detonation that's the real question.

In that thread a good amount of those people seem like running high boost with anything less than 8.5:1 is a total nightmare..

And my choice for for cams were the 96-98 cobra cams

Detonation can be manged by timing, also, make sure you've got a functional IAT2 sensor.


since the eaton makes enough boost to ruin the stock block there's no need to add cams.

:lol: never looked at it from this perspective, but true, I guess. ;)

If the OP runs a stock motor and compression, 10 - 13 lbs boost shouldn't be an issue. I'm running just under 11 lbs with a stock upper and 2 lb. lower and no issues.

[LANDY]

I have seen 9.5.1 CR cars on 20psi of boost.
Also with stock CR the op can run 15psi if he likes just not that much timing.

[na svt]

:lol: never looked at it from this perspective, but true, I guess.

The cobra intake cams, if advanced to a lower lobe center, will increase off-boost tq and improve driveability by a good amount and with stock rearend gears will make the car more fun to drive.

[SC Cheesehead]

The cobra intake cams, if advanced to a lower lobe center, will increase off-boost tq and improve driveability by a good amount and with stock rearend gears will make the car more fun to drive.

Interesting!

Already fun to drive, but more funner, more better.... ;)

[hotford]

Building a stroker 5.3 is great an all but most people don't know building a heavier rotating asmbley also will hurt h.p.
The storker will be useless unless you run a bigger blower the Eaton will not be able to feed the motor due tithe fact it will breathe better.
Running more base compression will give the car more snap down low and you won't need to run higher boost,on the other hand some people will install a cobra short as they are plentiful. And reasonably priced even though they are dropping base compression by 1.5
They then have there Eaton or trilogy ported an spun harder,some on the members here have done so and are making over 500 rwph.

[na svt]

Building a stroker 5.3 is great an all but most people don't know building a heavier rotating asmbley also will hurt h.p.

Please explain this? I know people with big bore strokers spinning them to 8000rpm; didn't hurt their hp one bit seeing as they are making over 500rwhp n/a.

[dohc324ci]

I've never heard of increasing CI hurting HP? Stroked, big bore or both.

[J-MAN]

A forged rotating assembly is heavier and takes more HP to spin. Absent other changes(bore, stroke, cams,etc)going from 4.6 cast to 4.6 forged, the HP at 6200 is less with the forged motor.

[na svt]

A forged rotating assembly is heavier and takes more HP to spin. Absent other changes(bore, stroke, cams,etc)going from 4.6 cast to 4.6 forged, the HP at 6200 is less with the forged motor.
It take hp to drive an Eaton also but I don't hear people complaining. Four cylinder engines have less reciprocating weight, shall we all swap in one of those?

The added mass of stroker or big bore rotating assembly is of no consequence because their benefits far outweight any negatives they bring to the table. Also, the HP difference between forged and cast rotating assemblies is little.

[BUCKWHEAT]

Agreed. Boss block is the better route. Stronger all the way around. Throw whatever boost you want at it and it will beg for more...

True, but for street use the aluminum might be better. The Boss 50 is harder to keep cool. If you are in a colder climate, Boss might be fine. I had a choice and took the stroker aluminum over the Boss. Not running out of boost yet with the available fuel. Engine is really smooth & is consistently strong.

[na svt]

True, but for street use the aluminum might be better. The Boss 50 is harder to keep cool. If you are in a colder climate, Boss might be fine. I had a choice and took the stroker aluminum over the Boss. Not running out of boost yet with the available fuel. Engine is really smooth & is consistently strong.
...and the stroker is a better engine for a obese vehicle.

[hotford]

A forged rotating assembly is heavier and takes more HP to spin. Absent other changes(bore, stroke, cams,etc)going from 4.6 cast to 4.6 forged, the HP at 6200 is less with the forged motor.

Yes thank you I seen this actually happen,
A case crank is lighter than the forged one,same goes for the powered rods vs the forged rod,forged pistons vs hyperutectic ones,may not effect a bigger displacement motor as much but the smaller cube the more effect.
As for high rpm motors reving 8000 most of the internal parts to sustained these continuous rpm would be built with lighter forged internals costing more.
What were talking about is street driven cars that see 6500 rpm.

[RacerX]

There is a 5.0 aluminum FRPP block. Same as in the Cammer. Stroke that puppy! ;)

[hotford]

With all things being equal ie. Cube in a 281 with a lighter rotating asmbley. Would take less hp to turn it.
That's what I meant.

[blkZooM]

Lidio states the same thing about forging out your bottom end if another things are not considered when doing it he basically says forging alone could actually hurt performance, and that is the reason why he recommend 302 stroker. I'm guessing stroking to 5.0L is lighter than just forging it.. Tho that not my reason for wanting to go the stroker route..

from what I've read like NA SVT has said, the an Eaton which would only be temporary for my plans would work less because it is not being spun as hard simply because the engine is making more power on its..

[na svt]

Lidio states the same thing about forging out your bottom end if another things are not considered when doing it he basically says forging alone could actually hurt performance, and that is the reason why he recommend 302 stroker. I'm guessing stroking to 5.0L is lighter than just forging it.. Tho that not my reason for wanting to go the stroker route..

from what I've read like NA SVT has said, the an Eaton which would only be temporary for my plans would work less because it is not being spun as hard simply because the engine is making more power on its..

The forged stroker crank is heavier than both the stock cobra forged crank and the cast marauder crank.

The need for a forged crank is very overstated, 99% of the combos out there can run a cast crank. Only those over 600rw need forged.

[MOTOWN]

After reading thru this thread there is a lot of flat out wrong, and misinformation being given out!

A forged stroker hurting h.p.!! yeah well go with a cast stroker, spin it to 7k w/16psi and let me know how that works out for you!

[hotford]

After reading thru this thread there is a lot of flat out wrong, and misinformation being given out!

A forged stroker hurting h.p.!! yeah well go with a cast stroker, spin it to 7k w/16psi and let me know how that works out for you!

You ask lidio about his 08 GT car it had a cast crank with forged rods and pistons and was reving over 7K with his Whipple making 565 rwhp through his auto with no problems.
That's close to 700 at the crank.

[Triple Threat]

Make sure you also change you cams. Adding cubes to an engine efectively makes the cams "smaller", less aggressive. The Marauder cams are very mild as it is and don't have enough duration for the stock engine let alone a larger cubic inch combo, in a stroker or big bore will peak in the low-mid 5000s and in a BB/stroker they'll peak even lower.

This is something most people don't think about. I hear a lotta people complain about the power their stroker or big bore makes and how they peak so low in the RPM range. It's not uncommon to only pick up 20rwhp with a stock cammed, big bore or a stroker. With the proper cams the n/a rwhp/rwtq can be increased by 50 or more and this is with cams that will work with the lard *** marauder.




Where did you here this? More cubes equals the same power with less boost, less heat, longer engine life and more off-boost tq.



...and where di you here this? A 3.8" inch stroke is the longest the boss block can take and with a 3.7" bore the cubic inch volume is 327ci. The bore can't be enlarged past this point. The limiting factor in the bore diameter is the surface between the bores and with a 3.7" bore the sealing surface measures only .237". To acheive a 363" engine the bore would have to be taken out to 3.9", this would leave a sealing surface between the bores of only .037" which is less than the gap of your spark plugs.

A big bore 5.4 block can be made into a big bore and with a stock stroke will have 358ci. I just spec'd cams for two of these, both 12:1, n/a monsters that will make 550rw.



You can safely run 9.5:1 compression with an eaton, centri or turbo.

Check out ford performance p/n M-6010-B-302 BB. It can be bored out to 4.125" .

[MOTOWN]

You ask lidio about his 08 GT car it had a cast crank with forged rods and pistons and was reving over 7K with his Whipple making 565 rwhp through his auto with no problems.
That's close to 700 at the crank.

Well thats a big difference from a cast rotating assembly, i would trust a cast crank w/forged pistons and rods too!

Normaly when we go with forged pistons and rods the crank is purchased as well if for nothing else but peace of mind!

But yeah i wouldnt sweat with a cast crank with forged pistons, and rods built that combo many times my self!

[hotford]

^^^^^^so have I with no worries....lol^^^^^^^

[Black&Gifted]

since the eaton makes enough boost to ruin the stock block there's no need to add cams.

how about a terminator motor with 98 cobra cams? I have both sitting in my garage and would like to max out the eaton (it will be ported).

[na svt]

how about a terminator motor with 98 cobra cams? I have both sitting in my garage and would like to max out the eaton (it will be ported).
cobra cams installed at 108 and the exhaust cams at 118 work great for a 6300 shift point; they add about 30rwhp and 40ft lbs

[na svt]

Check out ford performance p/n M-6010-B-302 BB. It can be bored out to 4.125" .
That's a pushrod engine.

[RacerX]

Get the biggest displacement you can for your budget. Simple. :beer:

[J-MAN]

A forged rotating assembly is heavier and takes more HP to spin. Absent other changes(bore, stroke, cams,etc)going from 4.6 cast to 4.6 forged, the HP at 6200 is less with the forged motor.


It take hp to drive an Eaton also but I don't hear people complaining. Four cylinder engines have less reciprocating weight, shall we all swap in one of those?

The added mass of stroker or big bore rotating assembly is of no consequence because their benefits far outweight any negatives they bring to the table. Also, the HP difference between forged and cast rotating assemblies is little.

Sorry, I see you miss my point. Will try and use pictures next time. :)

[dohc324ci]

Lidio states the same thing about forging out your bottom end if another things are not considered when doing it he basically says forging alone could actually hurt performance, and that is the reason why he recommend 302 stroker. I'm guessing stroking to 5.0L is lighter than just forging it.. Tho that not my reason for wanting to go the stroker route..

from what I've read like NA SVT has said, the an Eaton which would only be temporary for my plans would work less because it is not being spun as hard simply because the engine is making more power on its..

When you stroke a 4.6 (3.543) to a 5.0 (3.750) your essentially getting a forged rotating assembly. increasing cubic inches equates to more HP.

If you only forge your rotating assembly with std 3.543 crankshaft without doing anything else then your going to lose hp due to the heavier bottom end. But typically if you forge you have a power adder of some sort so really not a issue. NA and forge rotating assembly and nothing else yeah lose HP. Does this makes sense?

What exactly are your goals/budget; once you figure this out then you can build to suit with that in mind. I went big bore because I wanted the baddest modular motor ($$) that would plug right into this platform and streetable that would be Vortech SC'ed down the line 12-16lbs 600rwhp+ or there abouts. Knowing I would put all my money into the motor with no budget for SC for a few years I kept the compression stock and worked the intake/heads/cam. Now I could have done an Aluminator and DR Vortech kit and be around 500rwhp today but I didnt.

[blkZooM]

When you stroke a 4.6 (3.543) to a 5.0 (3.750) your essentially getting a forged rotating assembly. increasing cubic inches equates to more HP.

If you only forge your rotating assembly with std 3.543 crankshaft without doing anything else then your going to lose hp due to the heavier bottom end. But typically if you forge you have a power adder of some sort so really not a issue. NA and forge rotating assembly and nothing else yeah lose HP. Does this makes sense?

What exactly are your goals/budget; once you figure this out then you can build to suit with that in mind. I went big bore because I wanted the baddest modular motor ($$) that would plug right into this platform and streetable that would be Vortech SC'ed down the line 12-16lbs 600rwhp+ or there abouts. Knowing I would put all my money into the motor with no budget for SC for a few years I kept the compression stock and worked the intake/heads/cam. Now I could have done an Aluminator and DR Vortech kit and be around 500rwhp today but I didnt.

I was never confused I simply just restated what I read on Lidio's site about just forging the bottom end and not doing anything else. you know my goals power wise, really just aiming for a bad ass four door sleeper. My budget simply on the bottom end I'm not trying to go over $4500 which I believe can be done.. the car is here to stay so Ill do things step by step I just like to ask questions while in the blue print stage before moving forward.

[1 Bad Merc]

You are going to find out building a 5.0 stroker motor is not that cheap of a proposition. By the time you buy all the parts (4 cams), get the heads done, upgrade the fuel system to feed it, put the headers on,do the exhaust, etc., etc. you are going to have some money into it. I know what I have in my built stroker motor and it is alot more expensive than $4500.

I wish you good luck on your build and I would be really interested in the total costs when you are done building it.

[blkZooM]

You are going to find out building a 5.0 stroker motor is not that cheap of a proposition. By the time you buy all the parts (4 cams), get the heads done, upgrade the fuel system to feed it, put the headers on,do the exhaust, etc., etc. you are going to have some money into it. I know what I have in my built stroker motor and it is alot more expensive than $4500.

I wish you good luck on your build and I would be really interested in the total costs when you are done building it.

hm thanks for the advice, I'm game not really trying to do the same as everybody else with just S/C it and calling it a day. What have you done to your engine if you don't mind besides obvious

[1 Bad Merc]

hm thanks for the advice, I'm game not really trying to do the same as everybody else with just S/C it and calling it a day. What have you done to your engine if you don't mind besides obvious

I went with the Lidio 5.0 stroker kit. Stayed with the Aluminum block due to weight and added Diamond Pistons, Manley rods, forged crank and crower hot rod cams. Put the good Melling oil pump in and also had the heads machined and ported. Lidio stayed with a higher compression ratio (I believe 10:50 to 1) on my motor.

Aluminum block should be good for up to 800 hp so I stayed away from the iron block. I knew I would not hit that HP mark as I like to drive my car on the street. I did upgrade the fuel pump to GT-40 pump, bap, 42 lb. injectors (60's will be going in next), added headers, electric cut-outs, changed the cats to two high flows and kept the exhaust stock from mufflers back to try and keep it quiet.

I have the regular Trilogy s/c running a 2.8 upper pulley and will be going to the different bottom one with the Metco hub. With the current S/C set-up I actually run out of air with it before I run out of motor so a Posi port is on my list of things to do.

I do know that the MM is never gonna be a super fast dragstrip car (due to the body weight) and I am not going to strip the car out either. I am just going to continue to drive it and surprise people with my very quick 4-door street car :beer:

I will say that with the money I have into this car I easily could of built an 8-9 second Mustang that pulls the front wheels. But those kind of cars get old really fast ( had one before) especially when you want to drive them on the street.

Have fun with your build and keep us informed with how it turns out.

[na svt]

Sorry, I see you miss my point. Will try and use pictures next time. :)

I see your point, but the OP is not wanting to keep the stock bore and stroke.


You are going to find out building a 5.0 stroker motor is not that cheap of a proposition. By the time you buy all the parts (4 cams), get the heads done, upgrade the fuel system to feed it, put the headers on,do the exhaust, etc., etc. you are going to have some money into it. I know what I have in my built stroker motor and it is alot more expensive than $4500.

I wish you good luck on your build and I would be really interested in the total costs when you are done building it.

You can get a 10:1 compression, aluminum block, stroker shortblock from JDM for $2999. It's had to get your stock engine rebuilt for that much when using quality parts.

[BIGSHUNN]

Man! I'm really enjoying everything NA SVT & DOHC324CI is saying. Thanks!

[blkZooM]

I see your point, but the OP is not wanting to keep the stock bore and stroke.



You can get a 10:1 compression, aluminum block, stroker shortblock from JDM for $2999. It's had to get your stock engine rebuilt for that much when using quality parts.

I talked to JDM about that short block I was told that the block could only handle 600hp at the crank.. the route I will go I will be passing that.. but now that you mention it there was the same setup with a way stronger block.

[na svt]

I talked to JDM about that short block I was told that the block could only handle 600hp at the crank.. the route I will go I will be passing that.. but now that you mention it there was the same setup with a way stronger block.

Does it have a cast crank?

You can get a stroker kit from most anywhere for around $2k and with your block and machine work it would still come in under $3k. I bought a stroker kit from MMR (included forged rods/pistons/crank and rings).

If the JDM stroker has an eagle cast crank I too would pass on it. The WAP block will however hold up to as much as you're gonna throw at it.

[dohc324ci]

You can get a MMR stroker mod 900s Assembly like what I have in my setup for $2149.00. Pistons, crank, rods et. to support up to 900rw. BTW, even with no power adder a BBS will shred tires for days causing you to grin ear to ear....until you have to replace your tires. Be forewarned this is very addicting and daily driven you have to work at not being tempted particularly when at a stop sign and no one in sight;)

P.S. This hobby is expensive and be prepaired to be over budget.

[blkZooM]

You can get a MMR stroker mod 900s Assembly like what I have in my setup for $2149.00. Pistons, crank, rods et. to support up to 900rw. BTW, even with no power adder a BBS will shred tires for days causing you to grin ear to ear....until you have to replace your tires. Be forewarned this is very addicting and daily driven you have to work at not being tempted particularly when at a stop sign and no one in sight;)

P.S. This hobby is expensive and be prepaired to be over budget.

with that price hard not to go that route didn't know thats what you paid for it will be looking them up now. ha dohc324ci at 22 and no kids and all I do is work, I could find a lot of other ways to blow the money I would put into my car and wonder where the hell it all went at the end of the year. :lol: I would rather look back and know it went into the car so I'm prepaired

[na svt]

with that price hard not to go that route didn't know thats what you paid for it will be looking them up now. ha dohc324ci at 22 and no kids and all I do is work, I could find a lot of other ways to blow the money I would put into my car and wonder where the hell it all went at the end of the year. :lol: I would rather look back and know it went into the car so I'm prepaired

You can get the stroker kit for $2.2k, for an assembled bb/stroker shortblock expect to spend another $4k. Add to that cams, head gaskets, head bolts, oil pump, valve job, valve seals and the total for the engine will be in the $8k range. Portind the heads will add another $1k.

[dohc324ci]

I would budget 9k for this project minimum. You might as well do the heads and cams while it's out; as Todd mentioned. R&R and tune another 3k or so $12-13k for this type of build is realistic. It adds up, stuff like a fuel pump, timing chain kit, fuel injectors, and water pump to name a few.

[blkZooM]

hey na svt still waiting to hear from you the best cams to go with this setup if you

[blkZooM]

I would budget 9k for this project minimum. You might as well do the heads and cams while it's out; as Todd mentioned. R&R and tune another 3k or so $12-13k for this type of build is realistic. It adds up, stuff like a fuel pump, timing chain kit, fuel injectors, and water pump to name a few.

Those number are scary, does all of these have to be done at the same time, don't think I would ever just drop all that $$ at once? and have you had your heads done and what cams did you go with

[dohc324ci]

Those number are scary, does all of these have to be done at the same time, don't think I would ever just drop all that $$ at once? and have you had your heads done and what cams did you go with

No you don't have to I did for piece of mind. I had over 100k miles so I replaced with new while I had it out. As far as the heads go you don't have to but why do the stroker and not match your motor with a higher lift cam? If you plan to do alot of the work yourself then you will save $$.

Yes I went pretty much all out with the exception of cryo treatment. BBS/Heads/intake/cam/headers/built trans awaiting suspension work, after market brakes and supercharger another 7-8k. Then paint 5-7k. Then.....It never seems to end.

Eaton and 400-450 rwhp for $4500 and done sounds better right?

[Black&Gifted]

I was never confused I simply just restated what I read on Lidio's site about just forging the bottom end and not doing anything else. you know my goals power wise, really just aiming for a bad ass four door sleeper. My budget simply on the bottom end I'm not trying to go over $4500 which I believe can be done.. the car is here to stay so Ill do things step by step I just like to ask questions while in the blue print stage before moving forward.

My next statement is premised on understanding that "bottom end" means "short block" (and not some gnay reference....the "n" is silent)

I would like input from others and please correct me if I am wrong, but a nicely built stroker short block can be had for under $4500. Things add up but as long as you understand your "realistic" goals, it can be achieved. Check out mmr's website and/or call them.

[blkZooM]

My next statement is premised on understanding that "bottom end" means "short block" (and not some gnay reference....the "n" is silent)

I would like input from others and please correct me if I am wrong, but a nicely built stroker short block can be had for under $4500. Things add up but as long as you understand your "realistic" goals, it can be achieved. Check out mmr's website and/or call them.

Yes the short block is what I was referring to and like I said earlier a nicely built short block with quality parts can be built for under 4500 I believe, not including the labor. I could buy the rotating Assembly that MMR offers

http://modularmustangracing.com.tempw ebsite.net/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=474&cid=1

this is the route dohc324ci was telling me to go just minus the 03-04 or the boss block. I could get this put into the block I have sitting around.. you figure 2500 plus another 600 to have my local machine shop bore and honed and finally another 600 I would say (just guessing) to have it balanced and assembled.. about 3700 for a well built short block that weighs less than the other two options.

a little more with ARP side bolt and studs

[na svt]

http://modularmustangracing.com.tempw ebsite.net/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=474&cid=1

a little more with ARP side bolt and studs

That rotating assembly will work great in your block. No need for main or head studs.

With 10.5:1 compression, stock heads and custom cams you would pick up 60rwhp/50rwtq.

Regarding teh cams, higher lift does little to increase power, duration is where it's at for 4V engines.

[LANDY]

No need for main or head studs.
Why build a stout motor without the stout hardware????????

[na svt]

Why build a stout motor without the stout hardware????????

I've never seen stock head or main bolts fail. If the boost is gonna be below 20psi there's no needs for studs. It's like putting billet rods in a 400rwhp engine, they're strong but not needed.

[Spectragod]

I would budget 9k for this project minimum. You might as well do the heads and cams while it's out; as Todd mentioned. R&R and tune another 3k or so $12-13k for this type of build is realistic. It adds up, stuff like a fuel pump, timing chain kit, fuel injectors, and water pump to name a few.

Yep, speed costs $$$, how fast do you want to go?

This is where I was at with my stroker motor last year, cams are $1500 or so, then you need new springs $3-400, P&P heads, injectors, new MAF, new fuel pump etc.,etc....

Then add headers, a blower, custom catch cans, built trans, torque convertor, big brake kits, new driveshaft...... it doesn't end, ever. :burnout:

Then there's all the rear tires that you'll be needing.....:rolleyes:

[Spectragod]

I've never seen stock head or main bolts fail. If the boost is gonna be below 20psi there's no needs for studs. It's like putting billet rods in a 400rwhp engine, they're strong but not needed.

Overkill is a good thing, always plan for more. 424 rwhp wasn't enough, 472 wasn't enough, @ 521 now, I don't know, maybe a 200 shot would make me happy. :confused:

The bottom line, you WILL always want more, plan ahead, then you don't have to go back and redo what has already been done, it only costs a little more to fly first class.:D

[LANDY]

I've never seen stock head or main bolts fail. If the boost is gonna be below 20psi there's no needs for studs. It's like putting billet rods in a 400rwhp engine, they're strong but not needed.
I'm pretty sure I lifted the heads on mine. Ofcourse the only way to really find out is to take it apart but all the simptoms are there. If I ever get time to work on my own car:shake:

[na svt]

Overkill is a good thing, always plan for more. 424 rwhp wasn't enough, 472 wasn't enough, @ 521 now, I don't know, maybe a 200 shot would make me happy. :confused:

The bottom line, you WILL always want more, plan ahead, then you don't have to go back and redo what has already been done, it only costs a little more to fly first class.:D

Yes, but when on a budget one can't afford to buy parts they don't need. Like I said, I've never seen bolts fail and I've seen some stupid amounts of boost put to stock 03/04 engines.


This is where I was at with my stroker motor last year, cams are $1500 or so, then you need new springs $3-400, P&P heads, injectors, new MAF, new fuel pump etc.,etc....

You can get cams that will work with stock springs or springs that work with stock retainers. I can do a set of custom grinds with springs for $1600.

No need to port the heads as the return on investment is very little.

[FastMerc]

Why build a stout motor without the stout hardware????????
Exactly! Alternative Auto did my 5.0 stroker and its great, best of all with the hotter cams and beefier internals I can add power adders no problem. The head work that was done allows the motor to breath alot better.

[na svt]

Exactly! Alternative Auto did my 5.0 stroker and its great, best of all with the hotter cams and beefier internals I can add power adders no problem. The head work that was done allows the motor to breath alot better.

Ported heads add no power to combos using a stock intake manifold, whether it's ported or not, I know from experience.

The standard forged rods and pistons will give out before stock head and main bolts.

[Spectragod]

Yes, but when on a budget one can't afford to buy parts they don't need. Like I said, I've never seen bolts fail and I've seen some stupid amounts of boost put to stock 03/04 engines.



You can get cams that will work with stock springs or springs that work with stock retainers. I can do a set of custom grinds with springs for $1600.

No need to port the heads as the return on investment is very little.

I don't believe high performance and budget belong in the same sentence.

I could have used different cams, I opted for Crower stage II blower cams, and springs/retainers, my budget was to get the job done to my standard(s).

Heads were off the motor & tore down, may as well P&P, not that much extra in the grand scheme of things. I didn't need a forged crank either, but I have one.

One thing I learned while doing Harley's, if you overbuild it, problems don't seem to crop up, I just applied that to my mod motor, cheap.... no, dependable...... time will tell.

The OP will have to do what will best fits his budget, he's knows what that figure is, all we can do is offer advice based on our experience(s).

[dohc324ci]

Stroker 302 SB with cams and nothing else is still gonna run 8-9k total installed and tuned. If you do the R&R yourself you will save $$ (14-15 hrs). Good luck with the build keep us in the loop.

[blkZooM]

Thanks for all the advice everyone didn't really wanna ask for help but glad I did, its good to get other peoples opinion that have been modding cars for sometime, being that A great amount of the work is going to have to be done at a shop sadly (I don't have the skills yet) so ill be spending a pretty penny down the road.. like I said i appreciate everyone's opinion.

Dohc324ci Ill be going the eaton swap route first already gathering the parts and have been looking up the blower we talked about, it seems they can be purchased now..

[FordNut]

I guess I'm late to this thread, but I'd say just go with the stroker and an aluminum block. If you can get a Teksid for cheap, use it, but it's not really a necessity. All of the stroker kits I know of use a forged Kellogg crank. Then take the money you saved on the Boss5.0 block and big bore rotating assembly and spend it on some decent cams. Run 9.5:1 cr if you're going to run boost. And go ahead and spring for the ARP studs for the mains and heads. They're reusable. The OEM bolts are TTY and intended for one-time use.

[Fosters]

about 3700 for a well built short block that weighs less than the other two options.


Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the weight difference between the boss 5.0 and the aluminum blocks?

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9559

vs

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9778

129 lbs vs 165lbs. I would add 20 cubes for 36 lbs and 1000 dollars any day of the week. 36 lbs in a porky marauder is nothing. Your spare tire weighs more than that.

There's another benefit to the big bore. For 4v modulars, the small stock bore of the motor shrouds the valves a lot, and thus inhibits airflow quite a bit; and this will be more evident in a stroker that needs to fill a longer/deeper combustion chamber. The bigger bore will let the heads breathe better; look at all of the flow numbers you'll often see the bore specified. On rare occasions you can find flow numbers with both size bores, and see the difference...

Last but not least, it's a lot easier to sell a fully assembled short block (yours) than trying to unload worthless stock rods/pistons/cast crank... A lot of people will buy a cheap (~1k? not sure what the prices are nowadays) stock shortblock replacement to throw in and get a car running rather than try and get a rebuild if they're on a budget. Especially 96-04 mustang gt owners wanting an aluminum block.

Worst case scenario, the aluminum block will make a killer coffee table. :D

[na svt]

The 3.55 bore shrouds the valves very little and the 3.7" bore allows only a small increase in cfm. A stroker will make more tq than a big bore and that's what these cars need. Also, according to Livernois a stroker will make more hp under 7000rpm.

So, based on this i would take an aluminum block stroker is a much better option than an iron block big bore.

I believe those block weights are incorrect as ther was 87 lbs difference between a wap, cast crank shortblock and one from an 04 cobra.

[MOTOWN]

The 3.55 bore shrouds the valves very little and the 3.7" bore allows only a small increase in cfm. A stroker will make more tq than a big bore and that's what these cars need. Also, according to Livernois a stroker will make more hp under 7000rpm.

So, based on this i would take an aluminum block stroker is a much better option than an iron block big bore.

I believe those block weights are incorrect as ther was 87 lbs difference between a wap, cast crank shortblock and one from an 04 cobra.


This is the very reason i say TEKSID!!!!:banana:

[Fosters]

The 3.55 bore shrouds the valves very little and the 3.7" bore allows only a small increase in cfm. A stroker will make more tq than a big bore and that's what these cars need. Also, according to Livernois a stroker will make more hp under 7000rpm.

So, based on this i would take an aluminum block stroker is a much better option than an iron block big bore.

I believe those block weights are incorrect as ther was 87 lbs difference between a wap, cast crank shortblock and one from an 04 cobra.

An aluminum block stroker will be smaller displacement than an iron block big bore; and the increased cubes will easily make up for the weight - and while we may disagree on the unshrouding thing - for the little cost in weight and price (mostly offset by selling of the stocker) - the bigger bore block just makes sense, especially in addition to the stroker.

And for the weight, the 87 lbs between a non forged aluminum block vs a forged iron block, is still small. Going to be a smaller difference between forged vs forged. If this was an auto-x stripped down notch mustang, I'd agree, that'd be substantial weight added. But it's a land barge with wheels.



This is the very reason i say TEKSID!!!!:banana:

Unless you're going for John Mihovetz power levels, there's little advantage to the teksid over our wap blocks... If I remember right, it's something like 5lbs.

[FordNut]

I have a Boss5.0 bb/s in my car. It makes a lot more HP and torque than a stroker. It's an awesome motor.

But I still say go with the aluminum block stroker.

Take advice from somebody who has built one and is currently running it, or take advice from somebody who has done internet research and wants to help you spend your money.

[na svt]

An aluminum block stroker will be smaller displacement than an iron block big bore; and the increased cubes will easily make up for the weight - and while we may disagree on the unshrouding thing - for the little cost in weight and price (mostly offset by selling of the stocker) - the bigger bore block just makes sense, especially in addition to the stroker.

And for the weight, the 87 lbs between a non forged aluminum block vs a forged iron block, is still small. Going to be a smaller difference between forged vs forged. If this was an auto-x stripped down notch mustang, I'd agree, that'd be substantial weight added. But it's a land barge with wheels.

Unless you're going for John Mihovetz power levels, there's little advantage to the teksid over our wap blocks... If I remember right, it's something like 5lbs.

You can disagree on the shrouding of the valves all you want, but i've had my heads flowed with 3.55" and 3.8" tubes and the difference was minimal, definitely not enough to make a noticeable hp difference.

big bore..........304ci
.020" stroker....300ci

The extra 4 cubic inches offered by a cast iron big bore won't make up for make up for 80lbs.

A forged rotating assembly is about 12lbs heavier than a cast rotating assembly.

I have a Boss5.0 bb/s in my car. It makes a lot more HP and torque than a stroker. It's an awesome motor.

But I still say go with the aluminum block stroker.

Take advice from somebody who has built one and is currently running it, or take advice from somebody who has done internet research and wants to help you spend your money.

Until you compare a big bore to a stroker you will never know which makes more hp or tq or even which would be better for a heavy ass marauder.

Which makes more tq, a larger bore or a longer stroke? They both have the same amount air and fuel on top of the piston. The stroker has a longer lever and everyone who went to school knows that a longer lever makes more tq. So, with all things being equal the stroker will make more tq.

Another case for a longer stroke: To save some weight and also have the ability to run long tubes, one of my customers removed a 5.4 and replaced it with a 324. The 324 used the same cams, intake and heads as the 5.4. The 324 made very close to the same hp but put down less tq depsite the addition of LTs.

[Fosters]

You can disagree on the shrouding of the valves all you want, but i've had my heads flowed with 3.55" and 3.8" tubes and the difference was minimal, definitely not enough to make a noticeable hp difference.

big bore..........304ci
.020" stroker....300ci

The extra 4 cubic inches offered by a cast iron big bore won't make up for make up for 80lbs.

A forged rotating assembly is about 12lbs heavier than a cast rotating assembly.


I could go on forever about the bigger bore - look at all of the high hp n/a engines out there - from LSx's to nascar 302s; they're all sporting a much bigger bore, but like i said, we'll have to agree to disagree about how much it helps.

And also, I'm not talking about the 4 cubic inches. Big bores and strokers are not mutually exclusive. All I'm saying is, for the minimal extra expense, get the big bore - in addition to the stroker. I'm talking about the 23 inches it adds to the total combination.

The forged internals will be the same cost, the assembling, cams, head work, degreeing of cams, tune, etc, all will be the same cost. What you're left iwth is the cost of the big bore block minus what you can shave off from selling the aluminum fully assembled shortblock. It might even be a wash in the end between the two as far as cost. And again, 36 lbs, 87 lbs or 75 lbs, whatever you think the difference is, it's peanuts to a 4450lb car with a 200lb driver.

If you think 87 lbs for 23 cubes is too much weight to bear and that , you really should be driving a b16 powered crx. Simple math: 23/300 vs 87/4450 means adding 7.7% displacement and 1.9% weight. Again, I'll take that any day of the week.

The ole rule of thumb math is 100lbs = 10hp = 0.1 at the track. I can tell you 23 cubes will add more than 10hp.

[blkZooM]

Being that I bought the teskid for under 200 about 3 months ago I feel like using that over going out an buying the iron blockover which is over 1000.

The big bore is a great setup when done right just look at the power Fordnut is making with it (actually read all his setup's before making the choice I made), but I'm not trying to add another 1000.

If I didn't already have the block staring at me everytime I walk into the garage then I could have went that route..

[na svt]

And also, I'm not talking about the 4 cubic inches. Big bores and strokers are not mutually exclusive. All I'm saying is, for the minimal extra expense, get the big bore - in addition to the stroker. I'm talking about the 23 inches it adds to the total combination.

In your previous post you stated:
An aluminum block stroker will be smaller displacement than an iron block big bore

Of course a big bore stroker would be better than a stroker, that's a no brainer.


I could go on forever about the bigger bore - look at all of the high hp n/a engines out there - from LSx's to nascar 302s; they're all sporting a much bigger bore, but like i said, we'll have to agree to disagree about how much it helps.

NASCAR 302s? Aren't they 360ci? Comparing 2v bores to those in our tiny engines?

A larger bore makes a huge difference in 2v engines as shrouding is more prevelant. Furthermore, the nascar engines need a shorter stroke because they are spinning 9500rpm.

If I was building an 8000rpm combo, if would be a big bore. However, a sub 7000rpm engine will always be a stroker or a big bore/stroker.


Being that I bought the teskid for under 200 about 3 months ago I feel like using that over going out an buying the iron blockover which is over 1000.

The big bore is a great setup when done right just look at the power Fordnut is making with it (actually read all his setup's before making the choice I made), but I'm not trying to add another 1000.

If I didn't already have the block staring at me everytime I walk into the garage then I could have went that route..

The beauty of any larger cube engine is that you can makedecent power with less boost and less boost equal less heat and that means longer life.

You can sleeve the teksid for $1200 BTW.

[blkZooM]

You can sleeve the teksid for $1200 BTW.

I honestly looked into this and wanted to go this route if I ever wanted to do the 324ci, from what I read was that it was VERY risky and I couldn't find cons when you sleeve it.

I forgot to mention but my car is a daily driver and will be after whatever road I take, so need something that will also be durable.

Can you tell me more about it. Pros and cons common, problems that people have etc etc?

[na svt]

I honestly looked into this and wanted to go this route if I ever wanted to do the 324ci, from what I read was that it was VERY risky and I couldn't find cons when you sleeve it.

I forgot to mention but my car is a daily driver and will be after whatever road I take, so need something that will also be durable.

Can you tell me more about it. Pros and cons common, problems that people have etc etc?

There are cons to doing a wet sleeve but not dry sleeves. If you already have a stock stroke forged crank the cost of going with a dry sleeved teksid is about the same as stroking it. If you don't have a stock forged crank the cost for the big bore will increase by the cost of the crank.

Add about $1200 to the stroker if you go with a stroker crank.

A cast iron big bore block runs $1200 and requires a hundred in machine work before assembly.

[blkZooM]

ill leave that at that, think ill just stick to stroking it to 302ci

[na svt]

Regardless of the method used, you can't go wrong adding cubes.

[Fosters]

In your previous post you stated:

Of course a big bore stroker would be better than a stroker, that's a no brainer.


My bad, I should have said aluminum block stroker than iron block big bore <stroker>. Was my impression he wanted to forge it anyway, which is a gimme about the stroker part. And basically selling the stock shortblock would pay for the iron big bore, since he's not reusing the crank or anything else.


Regardless of the method used, you can't go wrong adding cubes.

Werd. Now if only Ford had those dohc v10 heads available... :D