Show me your DDs! (Double-DIN stereo head unit)

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I'm looking to replace my OEM stereo with an aftermarket Double-DIN stereo. I still want to be able to use my steering wheel controls and will be running a set of RCA cables to an amplifier to power a (yes, only one) subwoofer.

Post up pics of your stereo and feel free to explain why you chose it. If the model you chose needed an adapter of some sort to be able to use the steering wheel controls, please say what kind you had to buy.

I bought an Alpine CDE-123 last summer, but it's a single-DIN. I bought it before really thinking about it; purely impulse buy due to low price. Wish I hadn't...could've used the money for window tint or S55 treatment...oh well.

Thanks for your input.

[NavySeabee]

Hey MSGT,

Good request. I'm also in the market for the same. Must be able to play mp3 CDs is also on my list.

Congrats on your retirement, btw. :beer:

[MercNasty]

I just ordered a Pioneer AVH-P3400, I watched a few videos on youtube and decided to pull the trigger on it.

[boyswithtoys007]

I have 2 marauders and a grand marquis that I have done this to. In the marauders I have the double din Pioneer avic-x910bt it does navi, dvd,cd has a ipod cable to run your ipod right through the radio. It also has a sd slot that you can use and put songs on as well. Has all the hook ups for a amp and you can control the steering wheel off of it with an adapter Ua17a0. I can get the other part numbers as well. Now the newer model is the Pioneer avic-x930 or 940bt does same things and has same features. I have a reverse camera also hooked to it. The only changes you have to make is to gring a little bit of plastic off around where the radio slides in but you cant really notice it. Any questions please ask hope this helps.

[MOTOWN]

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/sims36/procomplitechange006.jpg

[bigdhasmoney]

I want one soooo bad!

[2,4shofast]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/shofast/29493380105_large.jpg
I went with an Eclipse DD. The green matches the stock gauges great and at the time it was a very nice Nav unit. They have since went out of business so I will be looking for a replacement some time soon :( I put the same one in my wifes Edge as well :bigcry:

[marauder410]

i went with the pioneer double din awesome with my audio system bec it has alot of things i can adjust to get it to sound just like i want.

7' touchscrren and plays dvd's i love ittt PIONEER all the wayyy

[marauder410]

double dins fit and look so aweosme in our MM's they look like it came stock

[Chi Stallion]

Alpine iva 505 killing the game!! Best headunit ever made hands down does everything.
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/geosha1/IMAG1355.jpg


http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/geosha1/IMAG1365.jpg

[DOOM]

Pioneer Z-2 with Bluetooth, DVD player, rearview camera, touch screen, voice command, 60 gig hard drive, and 7 inch screen.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00132.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00134.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00135.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00137.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00138.jpg

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Thanks for all of the input so far...looks like I have several options to choose from. Everyone's set-up looks great!

[Captain Dynball]

Sorry for how dark it is....

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/399872_332287286789028_1000002 32781807_1277221_1217208386_n. jpg

[NATEHAWK]

PIONEER Z2, all the bells and whistles installed by yours truly....

http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4c055-a822-f84b.jpg

[Mercguy04]

Alpine iva 505 killing the game!! Best headunit ever made hands down does everything.
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/geosha1/IMAG1355.jpg


http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w426/geosha1/IMAG1365.jpg

I agree, I've had W205,W505, and now I'm going to buy a http://www.alpine-usa.com/data/product_images/503_1lg.jpg, ALPINE INA-W910


This one has everything except Blue ray, I'd like that but for now this one has it all and then some.
It will fit just nicely in my MM. :beer: :banana:

[Chevyguy]

I really wanted a Volume Knob this is a Pioneer too

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k603/folingo69/2011-04-11_07-38-28_168.jpg

It's a old unit even though I bought it last year. Biggest flaw is it can't pair with more than one Phone for BT audio, and really can't pair with multiple hands free even though they say it can.

Next would be a touch screen type maybe a App Radio

http://satelliteradioplayground.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/pioneer-app-radio.jpg

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/AppRadio

[sd8683]

AVIC F-90 BT...... Love it!

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo82/sd8683/photobucket-14891-1334954658393.jpg

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I really wanted a Volume Knob this is a Pioneer too


I really dig the blue...would go well with what I'm trying to do with mine (interior LED blue lights)

My Jetta VR6 I had for 10 years had the blue lights in the dash, stereo, HVAC....have been hooked since.

[Chevyguy]

It's pretty cheap now I seem to remember paying Two Fiddy.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13364_Pioneer-FH-P8000BT.html


Does come with the Bluetooth, mic and antenna and works with the steering wheel controls with the PAC SWI adapter and they will give you the wire harness/install adapter. Just give them a different part# for the install since it "does not fit" a Marauder according to the computer

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18027_PAC-SWI-PSv1-New-Version-of-SWI-PS.html

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Thanks for all the pics/inputs everyone. With my recent bill getting my brake lights/oil leak fixed and needing to get new fronts, looks like my DD upgrade will have to wait.

If I feel froggy, might go ahead and install my Alpine, just to see if I'm happy with it...

This thread can be closed if needed.

[03mmmonroe]

Pioneer Z-2 with Bluetooth, DVD player, rearview camera, touch screen, voice command, 60 gig hard drive, and 7 inch screen.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00132.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00134.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00135.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00137.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/DOOMIE/DSC00138.jpg

I have the Pioneer Z3 and love it put in both the Marauder and my Wife 2002 volvo c70. Great units.

[PonyUP]

Doomie, couldn't help but notice you had my Louisville CD playing in the Pic, love it :banana2:

[m@r@uder]

Kenwood dnx-9990hd

[DOOM]

Doomie, couldn't help but notice you had my Louisville CD playing in the Pic, love it :banana2:


I have been playing that cd non stop since you gave it to me! :rock:

[F8LBITEva]

I just picked up a pioneer app radio. I'll post pics after install.

[Horsepower]

http://img.tapatalk.com/a693689e-2510-651b.jpg

Pioneer manufactured ... Can't remember model number ... Love it tho ... Has the whole shebang ... Only feature i really wanted was the DVD tho lol
---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?1hssky

[71cyclone]

I have been playing that cd non stop since you gave it to me! :rock:
The CD is on 2;) of my IPODS

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I'm leaning towards this one:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_43550_Pioneer-AVH-P4400BH.html

It's a little more than I was wanting to spend, but WTH, it's got everything I'm looking for. (EDIT: Just spotted it on Amazon for $90 less!)

Anyone here have this HU or heard anything negative about it?

Also wondering what the difference is between the one in the link and the 4 previous and now discontinued versions are...is it a bad thing to buy a discontinued version if you can find one? It seems all 'new' models will become discontinued at some point...

[Horsepower]

not a bad unit at all... cheaper and more stylish then mines... and i overpaid:bs:

[Siege]

I picked up a used DNX 9140 on Saturday and installed it on Wednesday. Definitely some nice features with this unit.

I used the ASWC to retain the steering wheel controls and the Scosche FD 1330 dash kit for installation.

http://i49.tinypic.com/30ca8tx.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ymy7pu.jpg

[DOOM]

I picked up a used DNX 9140 on Saturday and installed it on Wednesday. Definitely some nice features with this unit.

I used the ASWC to retain the steering wheel controls and the Scosche FD 1330 dash kit for installation.

http://i49.tinypic.com/30ca8tx.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ymy7pu.jpg


That is the BEST nav wallpaper I have seen to date! :up:

[justbob]

Pioner F700BT

Bluetooth near the linelock on the pillar
XM
Back up cam
Voice controlled (however sucks..)
Ipod interface

Pros: sounds awesome, a lot of adjustability

Cons: ANNOYING beeps everytime you touch a button!
Minor bugs with rear view cam and maybe steering wheel controls (maybe its the PAC module)

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk 2

[2,4shofast]

I picked up a used DNX 9140 on Saturday and installed it on Wednesday. Definitely some nice features with this unit.

I used the ASWC to retain the steering wheel controls and the Scosche FD 1330 dash kit for installation.

http://i49.tinypic.com/30ca8tx.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ymy7pu.jpg

I have owned this unit in the past, it was probably the nicest and best, user friendly stereo I have ever seen. Great choice!

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I picked up a used DNX 9140 on Saturday and installed it on Wednesday. Definitely some nice features with this unit.

I used the ASWC to retain the steering wheel controls and the Scosche FD 1330 dash kit for installation.



Unless I'm just not looking in the right place(s), this HU is almost 3 times what I can spend right now...I did find a used one...for $1100!

[Siege]

That is the BEST nav wallpaper I have seen to date! :up:

Thanks a lot! The pictures show the start up screen, for the regular background I am just using the mesh base layer.

I made it in Photoshop so if anyone else wants to use it as their start up screen I can replace the Garmin and Kenwood logo's easily to match your system.


I have owned this unit in the past, it was probably the nicest and best, user friendly stereo I have ever seen. Great choice!

Thanks! I put a Kenwood DNX 5120 in my wife's car and this one has some really nice additional features. I need to adjust the microphone this weekend so it's a little closer since people are having trouble hearing me using the hands-free.


Unless I'm just not looking in the right place(s), this HU is almost 3 times what I can spend right now...I did find a used one...for $1100!

I've found some inexpensive ones on eBay but I actually got this from a friend locally. He bought a 2003 Cobra that had this stereo and he wanted to go back to stock. In exchange for helping him uninstall it and reinstall his old one I got it at a significant discount.

Here's one on eBay that ends today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenwood-Excelon-DNX-9140-Garmin-GPS-Navigation-6-98-inch-Car-DVD-Player-/251089992211?pt=Car_Audio_Vide o&hash=item3a76213a13&vxp=mtr

[2,4shofast]

Thanks! I put a Kenwood DNX 5120 in my wife's car and this one has some really nice additional features. I need to adjust the microphone this weekend so it's a little closer since people are having trouble hearing me using the hands-free.





Where do you have the mic located right now? I normally try to put them on or close to the speedo cluster and have good results with that.

[justbob]

I'll post up a pic this afternoon of mine in the A pillar.

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk 2

[Siege]

Where do you have the mic located right now? I normally try to put them on or close to the speedo cluster and have good results with that.

I have it clipped onto the top of the A-pillar so it was out of the way but I'm thinking it might be too out of the way.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Here's one on eBay that ends today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenwood-Excelon-DNX-9140-Garmin-GPS-Navigation-6-98-inch-Car-DVD-Player-/251089992211?pt=Car_Audio_Vide o&hash=item3a76213a13&vxp=mtr

Thanks....placed a bid on it, but don't think I'll get it since the current bid is already within $40 of my max bid...will know in 12hrs...

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Thanks....placed a bid on it, but don't think I'll get it since the current bid is already within $40 of my max bid...will know in 12hrs...

Been going balls-to-the wall since Friday night between having my kids and doing family reunion stuff, so haven't had the chance to check this out to see if I won it...and I did!!! Can't believe it...my max bid was $410 and I won it for $406...nobody wanted to pony up another fiver...if they had, it would've been theirs. WooHoo! I got me an awesome headunit for $400!!!

Guess I need to pay for it since the auction ended two nights ago....:lol:

Edit: Just paid for it...not sure if it comes with steering wheel control adapter (I'm thinking no), so wondering what kind I should buy...any suggestions? TIA...

[Siege]

Been going balls-to-the wall since Friday night between having my kids and doing family reunion stuff, so haven't had the chance to check this out to see if I won it...and I did!!! Can't believe it...my max bid was $410 and I won it for $406...nobody wanted to pony up another fiver...if they had, it would've been theirs. WooHoo! I got me an awesome headunit for $400!!!

Guess I need to pay for it since the auction ended two nights ago....:lol:

Edit: Just paid for it...not sure if it comes with steering wheel control adapter (I'm thinking no), so wondering what kind I should buy...any suggestions? TIA...

Congratulations! The Axxess ASWC worked perfectly on mine and auto-detected the car and stereo without hassle.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Congratulations! The Axxess ASWC worked perfectly on mine and auto-detected the car and stereo without hassle.

Thanks...your post reminded me that I did look at those before I bid on the head unit. Couldn't remember the name, so thanks for posting it up!!! Will buy one today...

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Just remembered that I bought a PAC SWI-JACK control interface when I bought my Alpine CD player...just wondering if anyone is using this and if they've had any issues.

TIA...

[Vortech347]

Do all these keep the steering wheel controls and factory sub?

[Chevyguy]

This is the older style interface I have this in my car

http://www.pac-audio.com/productdetails.aspx?productid= 207

Have to program it first couple of mundane steps and a chinglish manual. Even my 2008 vintage DD has the remote input, so you will be hard pressed to find one without this feature but do check.

I had to cut off the factory subwoofer plug and wire it to the subwoofer output on the Pioneer. Most pan the stock subwoofer as lame but I wired it up did not need to run wires or crawl in the trunk. All good things IMHO

[Raleigh Marauder]

OK - so a question on DD receivers.... In looking over some of the available models at Crutchfield, they state that a DD will not fit the Marauder. Obviously they do, so what issues are there (if any)?

[Siege]

Do all these keep the steering wheel controls and factory sub?

I use mine with the steering wheel controls and factory sub. There is a harness available that plugs right in to the factory subwoofer plug.

[Siege]

OK - so a question on DD receivers.... In looking over some of the available models at Crutchfield, they state that a DD will not fit the Marauder. Obviously they do, so what issues are there (if any)?

The biggest issue is space for the harness plus steering wheel control adapter box behind the stereo.

I tried to tuck everything out of the way without cutting the dash but there is no way it's happening. I had to use a hacksaw to cut off the raised bracket from the ledge underneath the stock stereo. That gave me enough room to tuck the wires down there.

Other than that I used the Scosche FD1330B Double Din installation kit and it worked perfectly.

[92BlackGT]

I just ordered a Pioneer AVH-P4400BH headunit and Infinity Kappa 682.9CF speakers and i'll be using a JL G4500 amp.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Images/Product%20Images/Car/AVH-P4400BH_reg.jpg
i still need to order a 10" sub and the steering wheel control interface. anyone have recommendations on a subwoofer?

[F8LBITEva]

I just got the Pioneer App radio and so far I love this thing. My entire music library,back up camera, hands-free phone calls, netflix,Pandora,YouTube, iphone movies, videos, navigation all rolled into one. This radio was made for iPhones and the newest one does Android phones.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/F8LBITEva/72e6b08b.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/F8LBITEva/d7a0355c.jpg

[2,4shofast]

I just got the Pioneer App radio and so far I love this thing. My entire music library,back up camera, hands-free phone calls, netflix,Pandora,YouTube, iphone movies, videos, navigation all rolled into one. This radio was made for iPhones and the newest one does Android phones.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/F8LBITEva/72e6b08b.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/F8LBITEva/d7a0355c.jpg

Very nice setup in a beautiful car! :beer:

[F8LBITEva]

Thanks bud. Also forgot to mention I finally hard wired my Valentine1 radar detector too!!!

[Esilar]

I wasn't satisfied with the original setup and so i was looking for an upgrade. The original head unit is quite useless here in europe due to different frequencies of the radio stations. I wanted an integrated navigation system with radio and mp3.
Finally i installed a AVIC F940BT in the MM with 4 Infinity Reference 6832cf all around. The additional ASWC steering wheel control automatically detected the Marauder and works flawless with the Pioneer. Everything is much better than before, except the sub. So next step will be the replacement of the subwoofer. :cool:

http://www10.pic-upload.de/04.09.12/ub7pz76dwwiv.jpg

PS: on my first ride i stuck 2 hours in a traffic jam and had a lot of time to play with the new system. :eek:

[DOOM]

I wasn't satisfied with the original setup and so i was looking for an upgrade. The original head unit is quite useless here in europe due to different frequencies of the radio stations. I wanted an integrated navigation system with radio and mp3.
Finally i installed a AVIC F940BT in the MM with 4 Infinity Reference 6832cf all around. The additional ASWC steering wheel control automatically detected the Marauder and works flawless with the Pioneer. Everything is much better than before, except the sub. So next step will be the replacement of the subwoofer. :cool:

http://www10.pic-upload.de/04.09.12/ub7pz76dwwiv.jpg

PS: on my first ride i stuck 2 hours in a traffic jam and had a lot of time to play with the new system. :eek:

How did you get the screensaver?

[fastblackmerc]

How did you get the screensaver?

This is where I get all my AVIC info.

http://avic411.com

[fastblackmerc]

I wasn't satisfied with the original setup and so i was looking for an upgrade. The original head unit is quite useless here in europe due to different frequencies of the radio stations. I wanted an integrated navigation system with radio and mp3.
Finally i installed a AVIC F940BT in the MM with 4 Infinity Reference 6832cf all around. The additional ASWC steering wheel control automatically detected the Marauder and works flawless with the Pioneer. Everything is much better than before, except the sub. So next step will be the replacement of the subwoofer. :cool:

http://www10.pic-upload.de/04.09.12/ub7pz76dwwiv.jpg

PS: on my first ride i stuck 2 hours in a traffic jam and had a lot of time to play with the new system. :eek:

I'll be installing my AVIC-F940BT in a couple of weeks.

Will have an AVIC-D2 for sale.

[F8LBITEva]

added some thump in the trunk!
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/F8LBITEva/BB5ED78B-6569-4088-A3FC-D3A7D1D857D4-36324-0000189D54CCD114.jpg

[Esilar]

How did you get the screensaver?

Made it myself on the computer. :P
Avic411.com helped me with the picture size. Just a JPG with 840x400 size.

The problem is rather to imagine how it looks like in the AVIC, i had to find out that a picture on my monitor looks quite different on the AVIC. Hard to describe, the visual apperance is just different. It was my 6th version. I tried black on white and white on black, big Mercury logo or small, and so on... Next try is with the godshead. But no idea if it looks nice in the car. :confused:

http://www7.pic-upload.de/05.09.12/b32la58qkwi3.jpg

[DOOM]

Made it myself on the computer. :P
Avic411.com helped me with the picture size. Just a JPG with 840x400 size.

The problem is rather to imagine how it looks like in the AVIC, i had to find out that a picture on my monitor looks quite different on the AVIC. Hard to describe, the visual apperance is just different. It was my 6th version. I tried black on white and white on black, big Mercury logo or small, and so on... Next try is with the godshead. But no idea if it looks nice in the car. :confused:

http://www7.pic-upload.de/05.09.12/b32la58qkwi3.jpg


That looks great!!!

[crabby125]

I wasn't satisfied with the original setup and so i was looking for an upgrade. The original head unit is quite useless here in europe due to different frequencies of the radio stations. I wanted an integrated navigation system with radio and mp3.
Finally i installed a AVIC F940BT in the MM with 4 Infinity Reference 6832cf all around. The additional ASWC steering wheel control automatically detected the Marauder and works flawless with the Pioneer. Everything is much better than before, except the sub. So next step will be the replacement of the subwoofer. :cool:


PS: on my first ride i stuck 2 hours in a traffic jam and had a lot of time to play with the new system. :eek:


What install kit did you use to fit the headunit into the dash? It looks really nice

[Esilar]

What install kit did you use to fit the headunit into the dash? It looks really nice

I used the FM-K9510DD from http://www.uneeksupply.com/FM-K9510DD_p_25714.html . (http://www.uneeksupply.com/FM-K9510DD_p_25714.html)

The problem or advantage (depends if you are a thief or the owner) is that the kit snap into the dash and can't be removed easily. So before you push the head unit in be sure everything works as expected. :rolleyes:

[1stMerc]

Pioneer AVIC-F940BT

How often does Navteq put out map updates for this unit? They render gps almost obsolete to quickly after a to short a period of time.

[Esilar]

Pioneer AVIC-F940BT

How often does Navteq put out map updates for this unit? They render gps almost obsolete to quickly after a to short a period of time.

So far there is no update beside a small firmware update. Pioneer "outsourced" map updates to Navteq for the AVICs. But on their web site no map updates (yet) for the F940BT, it already comes with the 2012 maps. Time will tell. :rolleyes:

[1stMerc]

Yeah, that's the problem with a lot of them. Out sourcing the maps and updates and then that company decides no more updates.
Have a very nice Clarion multimedia travel device that used Navteq, but they no longer provide updates, no biggy, could send route information to it via Google maps, but Google turned off that feature, so now that is no longer an option.

At least having 2012 maps will keep you from getting lost for another two years.

[Steve]

It needs to be installed behind the dash I think, but this is fine for right now.

http://i.imgur.com/uAXeK.jpeg

[ctrlraven]

Installed the Pioneer last month.

Pioneer AVIC-X940BT, got the back-up camera but haven't installed it yet. MB Quart 5.25" components up front, stock speakers in the rear, Alpine 4ch amp (front channels to the front components and rear channels bridged to power a 12" sub in the trunk). Steering wheel control and Metra double-din install kit. The double-din install kit really makes the radio look factory.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/2012-11-16_18-24-50_654.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/2012-11-16_18-08-04_656.jpg

[DOOM]

Hey BIRDMAN what size screen is that?

[ctrlraven]

Hey BIRDMAN what size screen is that?
6.1"
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/GPS-Navigation/AVIC-X940BT

[8UWITH6]

Did you use the dash kit number FD1428B?

I am looking at a Kenwood for my DBP and was kind of confused on which dash kit to use.

[DarthVader215]

Ill be getting one after Christmas..... Does anyone make a harness to still use the steering wheel controls?

[ctrlraven]

Did you use the dash kit number FD1428B?

I am looking at a Kenwood for my DBP and was kind of confused on which dash kit to use.

This is what you want http://www.metraonline.com/part/95-5817

For sale on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Metra-95-5817-Installation-1995-2008-Vehicles/dp/B0024L8I02/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356322950&sr=8-1&keywords=95-5817

[jsignorelli]

I put a Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT Double Din unit over a year ago. It uses the steering wheel controls, has a back-up camera, plays DVD videos in high def, has frequency equilizers and controls the factory sub-woofer. In addition, it has a great GPS system, runs my iPod, auto connects my cell via Bluetooth, and plays music from my Galaxy S III phone.. oh yeah.. it also has AM & several FM

[8UWITH6]

This is what you want http://www.metraonline.com/part/95-5817

For sale on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Metra-95-5817-Installation-1995-2008-Vehicles/dp/B0024L8I02/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356322950&sr=8-1&keywords=95-5817

Thats what I was afraid of. My local Best Buys dont have that kit. I better tell them to order it because I want to take advantage of Best Buys 18 months interest free on anything 429 and up. :)