Gingerman and Road Course Driving--#2

[SergntMac]

The last post before the thread was closed, was posted by KBMarauder and he said...

"As veteran of many driving schools and countless lapping days, this post has convinced me that my Kenny Brown prepared Marauder is woefully inadequate and that I do not have the necessary ability to participate in this high level event. Instead I''ll take my unmodified 6cyl mustang with 190,000 miles to a Fun Day at Nelson Ledges or enjoy myself at Putnam Park or Mid Ohio. At least those venues encourage easy and safe participation for everyone without making the rules too intimidating.

And I was really looking forward to a whole field of beautiful Marauders just having a good time".

Hmmm...Very effective of a post, for a guy with 10 posts to his credit. And, rather a strong opinion to express, from someone who didn't involve themselves by participating more in the closed thread? Maybe it would not have been closed with more participation?

Be that as it may, the closed thread was never meant to follow any particular direction, or, to scare anyone away. It was intended (by me, anyway) to share some 411 about what lies ahead for those new to this topic.

Driving a road course has a strong alure to it, much like a woman's perfume. To help others find their direction, and hopefully, enjoy their Marauders on an entirely new and different scale, I offer these words.

Not everyone here likes to drag race their Marauder. Not everyone here likes to do burnouts. Not everyone here is supercharged, or, scrubs and polishes their Marauder to the final "all time ever killer" detail. Not everyone here does what others do with their Marauder, and road course driving is just another aspect of the Marauder, another function, or, level of what this great automobile can do. You should look at your Marauder as a teaching tool. The car can do it, do you care to try?

I have owned three Marauders and I loved every one of them. Was I unfaithful to #1 when I bought #2? Was I unfaithful to both #1 and #2 when I bought #3? Dunno...But, stop thinking about your direction as an owner/driver as being unfaithful?

When I bought a Shelby GT, and then bought a second Shelby GT, I had some specific ideas about how I wanted to enjoy both, as much as I have enjoyed every Marauder I have owned. I drove the snot out of each car and road course driving is just another way to do exactly that. I believe automobiles are designed and produced to be driven. Trust me...I am not disappointing Ford, or, Carroll Shelby (R.I.P.)

However, the fact that I have returned to post here from a long absence tells me one thing. I love the people who own Marauders. I love how they drive them. I love how they customize them. I love how they care for them. I love how well the car fits into thier lives and in many cases, opens up their lives.

I can pinpoint some owners as not interesed in attending an Impreza meet (if there is such a thing), but they are at Marauder meets with us all and this weekend, just to see the fine detail, and watch the burnouts, and so on, and just because they own a Marauder too and visit this website. Alas, they may not love me as much because I left this community, but time will tell on this.

The track event planned at Gingerman for MVX is a great idea, and it's just another way to enjoy your Marauder, nothing more. Forgive me for wanting all of you to not be surprised at the gate. My input meant to take some of the alarm out of all of this, and it seems I failed. Missed my mark.

Yup, it's new to us here, but not a new sport, thus the sage advice from experienced owners. Yet, it's still an experience we never heard of before, nor shared among ourselves and when you consider that, this is an important point to keep in mind. It would have been nice to have KBMarauder's input earlier in that closed thread, but I suppose he doesn't visit here often.

DO NOT be alarmed by some of the facts posted about road course driving, it is not a scary or dangerous sport.

I said early on, this is much safer than most other sports. However, "too safe" is not a challenge and if it's not a challenge, it's not a sport. If dicey curves were absent, you would be simply navigating the parking lot at your local shopping center. (Ummm...OTOH, y'all could learn how to do that better after some road course time, IMHO).

Perhaps some of us have had too much experience in the upper levels that we have forgotten what a Novice is looking at? What he/she may expect? If I am responsible for any of this discouragement or alarm, my deepest and sincere apologies to you all. I never meant that.

There are some things to take into consideration, and those discussions were meant to take some of the suspicion out of this opportunity. But, is it not better that we discuss them here before reaching the starting gate?

Notes:

Past experience is not required. Neither is a race qualified car. This is an event staged and held for all Marauder owners.

Safety requirements are mild, just some "sense" involved? Some clothing may have to come up to specs., but we will learn more about this after discussions with Gingerman officials.

Willingness to explore, and learn new things about you, and your Marauder, are very high. You have to want to explore, and learn new stuff. Let's talk?

Y'all be safe, carry on.
Mac.
Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

[Bluerauder]

Perhaps some of us have had too much experience in the upper levels that we have forgotten what a Novice is looking at? What he/she may expect? If I am responsible for any of this discouragement or alarm, my deepest and sincere apologies to you all. I never meant that.

Based on attendance at past Maraudervilles, I estimate that there may be 60-75 Marauders in attendance at Marauderville X (MV10) in South Haven. Hopefully, it will even be more than that if we can draw out the members from the Detroit area. I suspect that 90% of them will NOT have any road racing experience AT ALL .... zip, zero, nada ......

Speaking for myself only, I'd like to get a "Heads Up" on what to expect as a First Timer. Hopefully, a little more detail on the event will be forthcoming as we get closer to September.

I think that MOST of the attendees will want to get out on the Gingerman track just for the experience .... like at Indy or Charlotte .... just not at the 200 MPH level of "Loose is Fast and on the edge of Out of Control". But a good deal more than a 25 MPH trip through the school zone.

By their nature, I'd guess that most MM owners enjoy the "spirited" driving experience whether in the straight line fashion or on the twisties .... or both. If they didn't like that kind of driving, they'd probably be in a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic. Many will want to try out Gingerman within their own comfort zone ... if that is possible.

That said, as a potential First Timer NOVICE at Road Racing, here's what I would like to know:

1. What happens on arrival at Gingerman?
2. Will there be an opportunity to walk the track for familiarity?
3. Is a parade lap planned also for familiarity and photo ops? Passengers allowed during the parade lap?
4. Is there a group training session planned? Or individual one-on-one training? About how long is it?
5. Do instructors ride along on EVERY ride? Who gets to go SOLO, if anyone?
6. How many laps for each group?
7. Specific safety requirements to even get out on the track?
8. What if I don't have a helmet if one is required?
9. Will there be a fee to get on the track/training?

Before getting into the nitty gritty of what to do ON THE TRACK, I'd like to know more of WHAT TO EXPECT before then.

[BUCKWHEAT]

Fun. It will leave a smile on your face, and a 'Wow, I really did it". So plan to. This is an unusual event. Staying at the hotel for the sauna is a sorry alternative. We need 90% participation, not 10% and you will take home lifetime memories.

I am a real Walter Mitty, wanting to do it but recognizing that I will be close to last place. I learned that, from several prior outings, 'place doesn't matter'. You will enjoy the experience and, as Sgt Mac said, you will learn some things that will help you in your street driving. What to expect (based on my prior Marauder track experiences. (not on Gingerman).
1. It will cost something. That doesn't matter. It's a Marauder national event for heavens sake. Likely cost is a nice dinner at Outback Steakhouse.
2. Safety will be evident throughout and you will appreciate it.
-You will need a helmet. Snell 2005 or 2010 likely. They will have good ones to rent to you.
-You will get some instructor in-class lessons where they will speak about the track layout, rules about passing others and maybe not to do it at all. They may want you to bring a fire extinguisher or not. Throw yours in the trunk before you leave home. Probably long sleves and closed toe shoes. You will prefer 100% cotton to poly just in case there is a fire.
-On the track, you may have a track radio station that you can turn in. An instructor may likely be driving the track and provide assistance if needed.
-You don't have to go fast. They will instruct on how to go your own speed while staying out of the way of faster cars. They may even have separate sessions for slower cars in one group and the Sgt Macs in another group. Start out in the slow group. Its a conficence builder.
3. Your car: Sessions will likely be limited to 20 minutes at a time. The road course requires 100% of your concentration (sorry, no texting) and it is demanding of your car.
-Be sure your cooling systems are in top shape. Your engine & trannie will get hot. They will survive, but they get a cool down in between sessions.
-Drive the course with your OD off. Period. Its an automatic. Let the computer and the trannie do their job. (my opinon, others may differ)
-Brakes are important. Really important. They will get hotter than a quattro de julio firecracker. If pads and rotors are marginal, replace both before leaving home. You should anyway. At the track, use the snot out of them. You will be amazed at how good they are under demanding use. When you pull off the track, park the car as quickly as you can and do not hold you foot on the brakes while you phone your honey with excitement. And, do not use the emergency brake when you are parked. The press of the pads will warp hot rotors during cool down.
4. Tires: Leave your burn-out set at the hotel. Drive to the meet on good tires (yes, it's probably time that you buy the good ones with at least OEM speed rating). Fat drag meats should stay at the hotel also. You may hear some grumbling out of the tires on some turns, but ignore them. They can do it. oh, put air in them. I run 38# all around.

Ok, yaall, add what I have forgotten.

John

[jimlam56]

The most fun I have had in my Marauders have been on road courses.
Several years back about five of us from this site participated in a track weekend at Sebring sponsored by SVTOA
I can tell you that a properly prepared MM is a blast on a road course, that weekend in Sebring we surprised a lot of "built" Mustangs...

[DOOM]

Don't know why the other thread was closed.

But I thought it was great to see Mark and Mac's input on what to be expecting.

The thread was very informative and a good heads up for the fun to come! :burn:

I already have my SNELL helmet.

[CBT]

Good post, Mac. Whole thing was good. :beer:

[Mr. Man]

Don't know why the other thread was closed.

But I thought it was great to see Mark and Mac's input on what to be expecting.

The thread was very informative and a good heads up for the fun to come! :burn:

I already have my SMELLY helmet.

We've done the road course at NHMS (paced) and it is a lot of fun.(3 or 4 laps) NHMS is brutal on the transitions on and off the oval but still we had a good time as I believe every one else did as well.

If the paced laps are quick at Gingerman everybody should have a good time doing that even if they don't want to do the educational road course that Mac and Mark are talking about.

Waiting to make our final determination on what we will do after Pops posts up the final itinerary with prices and so forth.:)

[Bigdogjim]

I hope I can fine a helmet to my head:)

I am up for a few laps aroung any track:up:

[Gryphonzus]

I think the biggest problem for me is going to be a helmet. I do not want to purchase one since I have about 4 Motorcycle helmets. I do not have a problem renting one if it is not too expensive. I am really looking forward to taking some fun laps around a road course. I too learned quite a bit from the other thread and do not understand why it was closed. Please keep us informed!!!!:bows:

[guspech750]

Hard to wait for this. Some really good info in the other thread.

I will buy a helmet as I have been wanting to road race for a while now.

Let the good times roll.


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[Go2GuyFL]

Interesting ... earlier thread titled "First Post" ... found it after searching "road course" ... answered my question on helmet requirements.

[MMBLUE]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79117

Said post.

SergntMac, great post in the begining of this thread. I have autocrossed with my MM and it is a BLAST. I had more fun talking with people after coming up to me saying" I can't believe how good the BIG car gets around" That to me was more fun than the course itself, well maybe almost as fun. Coming from a circle track background, and also racing my MM on a circle track, at a Spectator drag night at the local roundy round. I can say infadically, that road course racing or just plain old driving the course is too much fun to have with your clothes on. My .02

[Pops]

Guys the parade laps will be no chaarge. We will have a fee for the people that want to learn with the driving instructor. I will round up a few helmets for the people that do not have one. I am sure you will be able to have passengers on the parade laps. The track is about 2.5 miles so if you walk it you may need a nap afterwards. Charlie we can not answer rest of your questions yet! I also think everyone is reading more into this than you need to. The goal will be to keep it simple!

[Curless]

Any word on the rest of the driving stuff yet? I was at Gingerman tonight and spoke to Josh, he said that the details still needed to be finished....

[MM03MOK]

Any word on the rest of the driving stuff yet? I was at Gingerman tonight and spoke to Josh, he said that the details still needed to be finished....

Josh called me today but I was out straight. I'll call him Monday. Hope you had fun!

[Curless]

It was great, hot but we had a blast. Takes a bit to get used to the rear of a bike sliding thru a corner but once I got used to it I could control the slide with throttle!

[05crownsport]

I would highly encourage anyone who enjoys driving their Marauder at all...everyone...to participate in the road course experience. I did it in my 2006 Mustang GT at the 45th anniversary celebration at Skip Barber Motorsports park in Birmingham, Alabama. Now to work my schedule so I can make it to MVx!

[IwantmyMMnow!]

My take on the road-course...first, a little background info on me to help others better understand my 'view': Never been on a road course, never owned anything bigger than a V6 until I bought my MM, my MM is my DD, so not much of a 'tear it up' kind of guy...I don't have the luxury of a 2nd vehicle or throwing money into my car if I blow a motor or trans or whatever.

Have I driven my MM at high speeds? Yes...110...on a straight section of interstate with no one else around (except that state trooper...lol) for about 10 seconds. I've had previous cars with lesser power up to higher speeds (Honda Prelude 115, VW Jetta 125), so why do I shy away from it now that I have a beast? I dunno...I'm older and I have kids now would be two good reasons, I guess.

Now, I understand that we won't be zooming around this road course at a constant rate of 100+mph. These are the things that give me reason to think that maybe I shouldn't be out there:

--The talk about passing. First thought...there are going to be quite a few cars on the track at the same time and everyone is not going to be at the same speed. This introduces unfamiliar territory for me, and what usually is a person's first reaction to the unknown? Fear. I would absolutely HATE being the reason for an accident to occur, whether it's me trying to pass someone or someone passing me. Honestly, if this were to happen, I would never drive my MM ever again...I would buy a plane ticket to get back home and just leave my car at Gingerman. That's how I feel. I do realize that it is unlikely passing will occur going through hairpin turns at high speeds, so I can accept the fact that my fear of the unkown is making a mountain out of a mole hill in this aspect. I'm also certain that when we are done, I'll think to myself, "why the heck was I so worried about this? This isn't any more difficult than daily driving!"....BUT, until I get that first road course experience under my belt, I will feel anxious about being on a road course, which is a good thing...it's the person that doesn't have any concerns that you have to watch for, right?

Sgt Mac mentioned about the possibility of the vets of this sport having so much experience that they don't understand what's going on in the novice's mind...I think this is true, but through no fault of their own. Sort of like trying to explain to your son/daughter what it will be like the first time they have sex...you can go into great detail about everything you experienced your first time, and this will give them information on what they might encounter; pile on top of that the 'bad' things that can happen (pregnancy, STDs, etc) and you can see how they might be very anxious about it. Bottom line is they won't fully understand what you trying to tell them until they've had their first experience, regardless of how much information (good and bad) you provide beforehand.

--The talk about hot trannys/brakes/etc. I had new rotors put on March 2011, full tranny flush at 70k, new ceramic pads and had rotors machined March of this year, new tires, 410 gear install/gear oil exchange, and rear diff rebuilt May of this year, new spark plugs and SS brake lines happening Sunday...is there anything I'm missing? I do need to get new front shocks...is this something I should absolutely have done before Gingerman? (I will have this done regardless) Would doing a tranny fluid exchange be a good idea as well? It's just difficult for the novice to pinpoint this kind of stuff simply because of lack of knowledge as well as the differing opinions from the 'vets'. Maybe someone can post up some sort of basic checklist for others to use to prep their car for this event?

Again, since mine is a DD, the talk of 'hot' components makes me want to shy away...the last thing I need is a broken car. Same counterpoint to this thinking as I stated above...making a mountain out of a mole hill until I get the experience under my belt.

Please, don't get me wrong...the information that's been given is much needed and great to have. Try to look at it from a novice's perspective, though...it can be intimidating because the information is bringing to light things that the novice hasn't seen/heard/thought about before, thus the fear of the unknown begins to take shape.

I'm looking forward to this event, but being a novice is making it difficult for me to determine where the 'happy medium' is. I don't want to leave the course thinking, "Man, I really wussed it", but don't necessarily want to "leave it all out on the track"...especially my car.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I will have the J-mod done to my car prior to MVX...

[stevengerard]

This is one of the best tracks in the nation to learn on, very open, very safe track. There is an old saying in road racing "its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" Taking some turns at 30 - 40 mph feels just as awesome as hitting 110 on the straight away. As much road racing as I have done I still stink at it, but am always willing to learn and have fun. I like to win just like everyone else but for those who haven't road raced its about experiencing the limits of your car much differently than everyday life or down the quarter mile.

I guarantee you someone who has never done this before will excel at it right away (and blow right by me) and there will be someone else who will think they will do great will end up in the weeds, that's the way it is.

I will dig out my extra helmets too.

[ludwigvan968]

Here are some clips on my turbo MGM on the track :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIAuYcLmsYU&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJdarx-k2A&feature=plcp

[MM03MOK]

Gingerman does require helmets. Josh from GingerMan said they have 3 or 4 helmets they can loan us. The Track instructor company may have more and I will ask. With some members driving in the advanced or intermediate groups, their helmets might be available as well.

Long pants are required. Long sleeves are optional but suggested. Cotton strongly suggested. Closed toe tie shoes are required. No sandals or slip-on shoes.

For Parade Lap: no helmet or clothing requirements.

I would like everyone to attend the drivers meeting. It's a great introduction to performance road course driving, even if you're doing just the parade lap.

Here's their rules and regulations:

http://www.gingermanraceway.com/rules-and-regulations (http://www.gingermanraceway.com/rules-and-regulations)

[Pops]

I will also have some helmets for use. Think I round up 4 or 5 with out looking to hard.

[MM03MOK]

Thanks, John!

Helmet requirements:
Helmet must be SNELL or DOT approved and must be 2005 or newer.

[stevengerard]

did a few laps last week, wow I forgot how big of a barge these MMs are but it was a ball none-the-less. I even took my 16 year old daughter out there, and of course she was smoother than me driving, she hit over 100mph each time on the back straight away.

[Pops]

did a few laps last week, wow I forgot how big of a barge these MMs are but it was a ball none-the-less. I even took my 16 year old daughter out there, and of course she was smoother than me driving, she hit over 100mph each time on the back straight away.

Sounds like fun to me Steven!:)

[MM03MOK]

Because we need to arrange for in-car instructors for Novices ahead of time, we will be closing GingerMan registration on August 25. Do not delay in registering. This is a great opportunity to experience a road course and at your own pace. It's not a race, it's all about control and safety.

If you are Intermediate or Advanced and do not require in-car instruction, you may register up until the event.

Phil from CGI Motorsports says any DOT approved helmet will work for our activities for this event only. This would not be the case in most any other road course event.

[guspech750]

Oh man. I need to register ASAP. Geesh. I keep forgetting.


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[SC Cheesehead]

Oh man. I need to register ASAP. Geesh. I keep forgetting.


Sent from my iPhone
Eaton Swap + 4.10's = Wreeeeeeeeeedom!!

Yeah, you do, and you need to let me know if you're planning to take the ferry over to Ludington, too...

[Blown3.8]

What constitutes being an intermidiate? Do you need some kind of credentials?

[Pops]

What constitutes being an intermidiate? Do you need some kind of credentials?

Your car has to be dirty Chris!

[DOOM]

Your car has to be dirty Chris!

I'm out! :depress:

[MM03MOK]

What constitutes being an intermidiate? Do you need some kind of credentials?

Intermediate is someone that has taken instruction at a track and has at least one to three track days under their belt - not just the mandatory drivers meeting but classroom training throughout the day on track protocol, hand signals, flags, passing, etc., along with an instructor ride-along or coaching.

[Blown3.8]

Ok guess I'm out for that. But I have watched a bunch of racing on TV and my car is dirty.;)

Guess it will be nice to see what an instructor says about a stock super coupe anyway.

This is what I plan on bringing. Shouldn't be hard to spot me out there, bright red car in a sea of black ones.:lol: Plus it doesn't have a spool in the rear and its a 5 speed.:cool:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/blown38/Scarlet.jpg

[DOOM]

Guess it will be nice to see what an instructor says about a STOCK super coupe anyway.

I call :bs: :bs:


Nothing you guys own is STOCK! :lol: :rofl:

[Blown3.8]

Ok ok... it came with firestone tires now it has bridgestones.:D Besides the tires a B&M shifter and a K&N panel filter this one is stock for now.;)

[Blown3.8]

Here ya go everybody racing on Gingerman. Get an idea of the speeds you might go. I figure 100mph if you really going after it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xtOaooyHSg
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1xtOaooyHSg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2uTEdYX_k
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eZ2uTEdYX_k?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[MM03MOK]

Nice. I will watch this again! Please notice the orange cones. Each corner or turn should have three cones - first is on the approach to the corner. You should be braking at that point. You actually don't want to break in the corner since the weight of your vehicle will shift forward and you may not have the traction you need along with uneven weight distribution of the car. The second cone is the apex you should be aiming for in taking the corner. The third cone is your next target as you exit the corner, in throttle. The car in the first video did a lot of squealing in turns. Might have been going too fast and they were braking in the corner. Also, tire pressure is important to give you the most grip of the rubber to the track. You should use the full width of the track as well. I love seeing the track outline and the speed and tach on the screen. Thanks, Chris!

[Blown3.8]

No prob. Yeah the telemetry is nice. I'm excited!

[stevengerard]

for those wanting to "push" their cars a bit I would double check brake pads and change the fluid if not done recently - the build up of heat will cause fade real quick.

[stevengerard]

PS the first video is the shorter course, they lengthened it a few years ago so the straightaway is longer.

[DOOM]

for those wanting to "push" their cars a bit I would double check brake pads and change the fluid if not done recently - the build up of heat will cause fade real quick.

Good advice!

[justbob]

What constitutes being an intermidiate? Do you need some kind of credentials?

Well did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night? I didn't think so! 😄


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