18" Magnaflows VS. stock mufflers [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

TAF

02-17-2004, 07:40 PM

I'll give you my honest opinion, then let others chime in with theirs.

My answer is JUST a muffler change? No.

The real "bottle-neck" in the exhaust is from the CATS back to the mufflers. 4 CATS + you go down to a 2" exhaust through the H-pipe into the stock mufflers.

Changing from the engine through the mufflers SHOULD yeild you about 20-25 RWHP and 20 to even 30 RWTQ. No matter which exhaust system you opt for.

No need for changing the tailpipes (from the mufflers to the tips)...these are at 2 1/4 and the exhaust is cool enough by then that there will be no gains here.

Hope this helps.:up:

greyghost

02-17-2004, 07:44 PM

TAF, did his homework and is correct!

muslhed

02-17-2004, 08:17 PM

So, what would offer a decent increase in performance, short of installing a Kook's complete system? Are you saying that the only way to get an increase in performance would be to replace everything? I really don't want to fool with the cats just yet, since my MM only has 2500 miles on it. Would increasing the pipe diameter from 2" to 2.5" behind the cats to the mufflers, offer a decent increase? And what should be done with the "H" pipe to increase flow? Since they are going to be down there hacking the factory stuff up anyway, I don't mind having them hack a little further, as long as I know what parts to "hack"!

Fourth Horseman

02-17-2004, 09:21 PM

Didn't I see a post a while back from somebody who put FlowMaster 40s on their car, like I did with mine, say that they picked up around 10 HP? I could have sworn I remembered somebody having dyno'd it out and that's what they came up with. :confused:

Anyway, assuming I'm not hallucinating (one can always hope), then I'd guess you'd pick up about the same amount from the MagnaFlows, no?

FordNut

02-17-2004, 09:30 PM

Change everything from the outlet of the second set of cats to the mufflers to 2.25 or 2.5". From the manifolds to the inlet of the first set of cats it is 2.25, then between the cats it is also 2.25. From there to the mufflers it is only 2". Unfortunately there is a section about 1' long that is welded to the outlet of the cats which must be replaced to do this. If it weren't for this section you could upgrade from the flanges to the mufflers more easily, with less welding needed. I replaced my system in sections, with the first section being from the flanges to the mufflers, including muffler replacement. It is a 2.5" system with a Bassani x-pipe and Edelbrock mufflers. I picked up about 4 hp but expect it would have been better if the section behind the cats had been replaced also. Instead of doing that I put in the Kooks and high flow cats with 2.5" pipe back to the flanges. It is more expensive to do it in stages like this because none of the MM kits have flanges in the OEM location. Therefore it must be custom welded together. The only option that has flanges in the OEM locations is the Borla system for CV. It is 2.25" and includes tailpipes. It is expensive in itself, even more expensive than the pieced together system I've got.

FordNut

02-17-2004, 09:43 PM

BillyGman

02-17-2004, 09:45 PM

Please allow me to jump in here if I may. First, Todd is correct. The exhaust system up in the front on our Marauder chokes the life out of the engine's power in the stock configuration just as it does on most factory stock cars. You say that you don't want to mess w/the cats? Why? My car only has 9,000 miles on it, and merely had about 3500 miles on it when I installed the complete Kook's system. You can simply go w/hi-flow cats like I have, and like many others have, and that way, you'll still have cats. but you'll have two hi-flow ones, instead of four restrictive ones.

As far as I know, unless you live in California, then the car shouls still be able to pass emissions tests w/the two hi-flow cats. Another thing too is that to pick up merely 10HP isn't even worth it IMO because you're not going to feel 10 extra HP on the street when ever you hit the gas pedal. So unless you merely want the car to sound a bit better, then I wouldn't even bother replacing the mufflers alone.

Also, the "H"-pipe can be replaced w/an "X"-pipe which what the Kook's system and the Reinhart system includes. One more thing........IMO the second most restrictive thing on the Marauder stock exhaust (as well as on almost all factory stock exhausts) are the exhaust manifolds. So you really should take those things off to be replaced w/headers, or atleast reworked stock manifolds that have been opened up if you really want some noticeable extra power.

Fourth Horseman

02-17-2004, 09:47 PM

I seriously doubt any type of muffler change would give this kind of power increase. I changed a lot more than mufflers and only got 4 hp.

Keep in mind this was just from memory, I don't really recall what he said. But I _do_ recall somebody here claiming they picked up some hp gains from just a muffler swap. I tried searching, but as usual I came up with 20,000 hits for "flowmaster" and 98% of them are from people's sigs.

BillyGman

02-17-2004, 09:54 PM

even if you did get 10HP from the muffs, that isn't going to be noticeable on the street. You will not be satisfied. You'll want more. So why not just wait until you can do it right? I'm not being a wise guy. I'm just trying to save you some hassle, and some dissapointment.

And BTW,if you go w/the Kook's exhaust, everything is welded and bent for you. It's completely bolt-on except for where the mufflers connect to the stock tailpipes. Ofcourse there's more work to install those headers though since they're long-tube headers, but prsonally I think it'sworth the extra hassle. Dennis's exhaust set up might be all bolt on too, but I'm not sure about that, cuz I don't have that on my car.

TAF

02-17-2004, 10:13 PM

TAF, did his homework and is correct!

First, Todd is correct.

It's like...Music to my ears...

Some more for your viewing pleasure...

Todd is twice the man I could ever be!

If I wasn't happlily married to RF...I'd be all over that Todd like a hungry dog on a pork chop!

Todd saved my life....twice!

Todd...tell me more 'bout how YOU would route this coupling to make more power....PLEASE...I'm fascinated...I need to learn man...I NEED your knowledge!!!

BillyGman

02-17-2004, 10:16 PM

Hmmmmmm, can those be legitimate quotes? Especially those last four. I hope not, cuz if so, I think we created a monster.....

TAF

02-17-2004, 10:17 PM

boo........

BillyGman

02-17-2004, 10:19 PM

boo........

:eek: :eek: :eek: uh, sorry sir.......uh, I don't know what I was thinking!!!!

what I meant was....U DA MAN, U DA MAN......

junehhan

02-17-2004, 10:53 PM

If I went with the Reinhart, or Kooks full exhaust system, would there be any way to eliminate the check engine light that eventually would light up without doing a chip, or ECM reprogram? Also, i'm curious whether Reinhart, or Kooks mades a full exhaust system in T304, or at least in something that will last for a while for those of us who live in the salt belt. Aluminized steel headers would probably fall apart the first week here...........

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 01:32 AM

MARAUDERCHICK

02-18-2004, 05:55 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek: uh, sorry sir.......uh, I don't know what I was thinking!!!!
what I meant was....U DA MAN, U DA MAN......
C'mon BillyGman.....are you letting Todd pick on you again???
I told you.....never fear MCHICK is here!!! ;)

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 06:13 AM

C'mon BillyGman.....are you letting Todd pick on you again???
I told you.....never fear MCHICK is here!!! ;)

Uh, I mean,.......YEAH Todd! WHAT SHE SAID!!!!!!! AND IF YA DON'T LIKE IT, I'LL MEET YOU AT THE NEXT MARAUDER EVENT, AND BOUNCE YOUR HEAD OFF EVERY CAR IN THE PARKING LOT!!!!!!!!!!

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 06:15 AM

(note to self: this Jekyl & hyde routine is taking it's toll...better ease up before ya blow a gasket)

Haggis

02-18-2004, 06:17 AM

.....never fear MCHICK is here!!! ;)

Is that MCHICK or McHick. J/K :P

Being stationed in Georgia back in the '80s, some of those back water towns where pretty scary especially with this Yankee accent.

Oh Rich,

Go YANKEES

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 06:18 AM

Now if only uncle Marty would buy me that Ford GT, I wouldn't be between this proverbial rock & a hard place.......

Haggis

02-18-2004, 06:20 AM

... AND BOUNCE YOUR HEAD OFF EVERY CAR IN THE PARKING LOT!!!!!!!!!!

I would take it very personal if I found Tod's head print on my car!! :mad: :uzi:

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 06:25 AM

yeah, that would give your car a horrifying look to it....all the kids in your neighborhood would scream at the very sight of it, and would have nightmares about the horrible creature walking the earth who's skull left that print.......

MARAUDERCHICK

02-18-2004, 06:55 AM

Is that MCHICK or McHick. J/K :P

Being stationed in Georgia back in the '80s, some of those back water towns where pretty scary especially with this Yankee accent.
Oh Rich,
Go YANKEES
McHick!!!! OK you have hurt my feelings:( :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:

Cobra25

02-18-2004, 07:21 AM

Haggis

02-18-2004, 07:50 AM

McHick!!!! OK you have hurt my feelings:( :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:

I'm sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings :( . Was just having a little fun. I know it was insensitive and I apologize, will you forgive me. :alone: :cry: I won't do it again http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/1/innocent.gif

CRUZTAKER

02-18-2004, 07:53 AM

Kook's makes Stainless steel headers, and besides that, their standard ones are steel, and are ceramic coated inside and out....Nick no longer offers the headers in ceramic. They are all stainless now. I ended up with one of the first sets of non-ceramic coated. I am very pleased with the entire kit.

I too don't understand Junehhan's comment on the check engine light?
There are bungs for the 02 sensors, and the cats are there......?

FordNut

02-18-2004, 07:54 AM

I've been reading the postings on this site for some time now and checking around with some Exhaust systems specialist's and maybe some one can help with with this. Some of us on this site are trying to save some money on up grades like exhaust, I was thinking of leaving the stock manafolds, replacing the cats with 2 high flow cat's ,H or X pipe 2 1/4 ,Dyno Max Ultra Flo SS mufflers or magnaflow 2 1/4 and leaving the rear pipe and tips 2 1/4 . Has anyone tryed this type of set up or does any body have a good idea how much HP / Torq I might expect to gain? I know all about the Reinhart system and the Kook's and their price's. Thanks !

To the best of my knowledge, anybody who has done a system similar to what you are describing has simply replaced the pipes and mufflers from the cats to tailpipes. The cats were not replaced. No dyno tests have been done on them for before/after performance gains. Mostly reports of SOTP performance gains and sound improvement. Most folks that are trying to save money on the hardware don't want to spend it on dyno testing instead.

MARAUDERCHICK

02-18-2004, 07:56 AM

I'm sorry I did not mean to hurt your feelings :( . Was just having a little fun. I know it was insensitive and I apologize, will you forgive me. :alone: :cry: I won't do it again http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/1/innocent.gif
You are forgiven Haggis......I feel much better now;) :D :bounce:

SergntMac

02-18-2004, 08:02 AM

Some of us on this site are trying to save some money on up grades like exhaust, I was thinking of leaving the stock manafolds, replacing the cats with 2 high flow cat's ,H or X pipe 2 1/4 ,Dyno Max Ultra Flo SS mufflers or magnaflow 2 1/4 and leaving the rear pipe and tips 2 1/4 . Has anyone tryed this type of set up or does any body have a good idea how much HP / Torq I might expect to gain? I know all about the Reinhart system and the Kook's and their price's. Thanks !

There are a lot of misconceptions present in this thread, I can't address them all. But, your question refreshes it all, thank you. I'm not flaming you, Cobra25, but the only thing you got right in your plan, is to leave the tail pipe and Megs tips alone.

The OEM manifold is your first bottleneck. It chokes back hot exhaust gas into the cumbustion chamber and does not allow exhaust to flow freely away from the engine. The combustion chamber cannot fully refill with a fresh fuel charge because exhaust gas isn't getting out of the way. This is called "volumetric efficiency" and our 4.6L DOHC is far from efficient, less than 75% with the OEM exhaust system in place I believe.

Headers or improved manifolds are key to any performance gain at all. If you're not correcting this first, all your money seems wasted IMHO. Your gains will be low, if at all, and you'll most likely lose very valuable low end torque. Please consider investing in "before and after" dynos, you'll get solid answers in that data.

Yes, you'll have more efficient pipes in place, and it will all sound cool. But, more efficient with what? There is no additional exhaust gas to work with. The exhaust flow to all that you describe here will not change with the OEM manifolds in place. It's like hooking up a fireman's hose to your household spigot.

However you need to balance your investment in your MM, start your exhaust mods where they count the most, at the beginning of the system.

Just my .02c...

MarauderMark

02-18-2004, 08:37 AM

Ok i dont want to go to much off the subject here but i have a stage 1 kit from dennis i ordered 1st.now i bought the underdrive pullies do i need to have the chip reflashed?not only that but when i do get my Kook's complete exhaust would i have to get it reflashed again or ecm reprogrammed.in othere ever time you add something for performance does the chip need to be upgraded?

TAF

02-18-2004, 08:38 AM

SergntMac

02-18-2004, 08:55 AM

There is no need for a reflash after pullies or exhaust install.

Agreed. All the pullies do, is reduce the engine's labor in spinning up dead weight. This equates to more power through the drive train, and overall performance will improve. Likewise for 1/2 the justification for the Stallion TC. Half of it's benefit is improved torque conversion, the other half is reducing the labor of spinning up dead weight. The pullies are minimal. but valuable. The TC is major benefit.

You won't need to change any programming in your chip to accomodate exhaust mods, but you should begin thinking about a dyno tune that can take advantage of your changes. Comes a time in any mod program, where a fine tune is a mod all by itself. Look at it this way...You can buy a suit of the rack and you'll look great. Get that suit custom tailored to your specific measurements, and you'll look (and feel) even greater. Put a dyno tune on your mod list, it will be money well spent.

greyghost

02-18-2004, 11:14 AM

There is no need for a reflash after pullies or exhaust install.
Dennis used a different flash on mine because I had the underdrive pullies. He said it didn't need another flash when I put on the exhaust.

BillyGman

02-18-2004, 11:39 AM

I must say that MAC makes some very good points.

woaface

02-18-2004, 01:03 PM

Damn, the MM has 4 cats? I was thinkin about all out in a couple years when I'm in college (cough...when I have money left over during my first summer break)

Cobra25

02-18-2004, 01:13 PM

There are a lot of misconceptions present in this thread, I can't address them all. But, your question refreshes it all, thank you. I'm not flaming you, Cobra25, but the only thing you got right in your plan, is to leave the tail pipe and Megs tips alone.

The OEM manifold is your first bottleneck. It chokes back hot exhaust gas into the cumbustion chamber and does not allow exhaust to flow freely away from the engine. The combustion chamber cannot fully refill with a fresh fuel charge because exhaust gas isn't getting out of the way. This is called "volumetric efficiency" and our 4.6L DOHC is far from efficient, less than 75% with the OEM exhaust system in place I believe.

Headers or improved manifolds are key to any performance gain at all. If you're not correcting this first, all your money seems wasted IMHO. Your gains will be low, if at all, and you'll most likely lose very valuable low end torque. Please consider investing in "before and after" dynos, you'll get solid answers in that data.

Yes, you'll have more efficient pipes in place, and it will all sound cool. But, more efficient with what? There is no additional exhaust gas to work with. The exhaust flow to all that you describe here will not change with the OEM manifolds in place. It's like hooking up a fireman's hose to your household spigot.

However you need to balance your investment in your MM, start your exhaust mods where they count the most, at the beginning of the system.

Just my .02c... Thanks for your input, I'm just one of those people who look into every little detail of something before I purchase it.

MarauderMark

02-18-2004, 05:17 PM

Agreed. All the pullies do, is reduce the engine's labor in spinning up dead weight. This equates to more power through the drive train, and overall performance will improve. Likewise for 1/2 the justification for the Stallion TC. Half of it's benefit is improved torque conversion, the other half is reducing the labor of spinning up dead weight. The pullies are minimal. but valuable. The TC is major benefit.

You won't need to change any programming in your chip to accomodate exhaust mods, but you should begin thinking about a dyno tune that can take advantage of your changes. Comes a time in any mod program, where a fine tune is a mod all by itself. Look at it this way...You can buy a suit of the rack and you'll look great. Get that suit custom tailored to your specific measurements, and you'll look (and feel) even greater. Put a dyno tune on your mod list, it will be money well spent.

Thank you for that info .i called dennis toady and asked him about reflashing the chip after the pullies installed.he said that i shouldn't need to have it done but if it idles low then send it back and he will do it..And a really big thanks for suggesting dyno tune which never crossed my mine(due to the wacky tabacky when i was younger):rasta: .the only problem is trying to find someone aruond here that knows what that means.:eek:

muslhed

02-18-2004, 09:19 PM

BillyGman

02-19-2004, 12:21 AM

Not exactly. The stock mufflers are more restrictive than the straight-thru Magnaflow mufflers are( Magnaflow part #14355), however, the reason why simply adding the Magnaflows to the car wouldn't be of much benefit is simply because from a performance standpoint, it iosn't the mufflers that are your weakest link anyway. Yes, the stock muffs are restrictive, but they're not nearly as restrictive as having the stock manifolds, as well as having four restrictive cats in the mix too.

Once you take care of those things up front by eliminating those restrictions, then your weakest link oerformance wise, and your most restrictive area of the exhaust will be the 2" diameter muffler pipe, and the stock mufflers. So that's why you would be wasting your time and $$ if you were to cut corners by merely replacing the muffs.

I hope this final explanation helps, because quite frankly, I really don't know what other way that it can be explained. ;)

SergntMac

02-19-2004, 06:20 AM

So, from what I understand, the stock mufflers must not be very restrictive at all. If they were restrictive, then common sense tells me that there would be some freed up horsepower in this swap. But most everyone that has replied says a muffler swap alone would not be worth it, unless you changed the other components that are restrictive. Is this the case?
You're catching on. The OEM mufflers are no more restrictive than the system leading into them. Without changing that, the only rationale for a muffler change is sound. But wait, there is more to consider here.

Changing the mufflers alone requires that you decide on the OD. Matching the 2.0" OD that's in place makes sense. However, should you later decide to upgrade the exhaust system, 2.0" OD muffler will now be restrictive You could work with it, Reinhart's kit was initially designed to hook up to 2.0" OD OEM mufflers.

The thing to remember is that as the exhaust gasses pass through the system, they cool and require less room to travel freely. Dennis included an extension pipe with a smooth, clean taper down to 2.0" OD that addresses the need to change mufflers. When I first installed his kit into 2.0" OD mufflers, I got 28 RWHP and 18 RWTQ gains. I later changed the extension pipe and mufflers out for 2.5" OD, and gained only 4 RWHP. The question is, was this minor gain worth the 300 buck cost of the mod? IMHO, no...But, I do love the sound of the Magnaflows too. Performance wise, I could have waited a while, but then we would not have known these numbers.

If you're looking to improve the sound, and want to be thrifty about it, consider a set of Wes Chain "resonator delete" Megs tips. This will turn up the volume a tad, and you may be pleased by this alone. If not, save your pennies and start from the front.

muslhed

02-19-2004, 07:36 PM

First I want to thank everyone for their very informative advise! I went down to the exhaust shop today and had some work done. After ya'll read what I had done, please tell me what you think.

After consulting with the owner, and studying the exhaust on my car after it was up on the rack, we settled on some changes that just made sense. We removed the back 2 cats completey, and replaced the 2" pipe running from there to the mufflers with 2.25" pipe. We also installed an X-pipe in place of the puny H-pipe. After that we welded in my new 18" Magnaflows. So, the ending result was a complete 2.25" exhaust system with an X-pipe, the front 2 stock cats, and a pair of 18" Magnaflows. The complete installation looks like an amazing work af art...as usual! These guys have done all the custom exhaust on all my vehicles since I have been driving.

Soon I'll order Kooks Headers to compliment the system, as well as a pair of hi flow cats to replace the 2 front factory ones. For now, the exhaust sounds much better, but not nearly as loud as I had expected. I assume that the factory "silenced" tips are still muffling it a bit. It seems like it has picked up some power as well.

Jeremy

BillyGman

02-19-2004, 09:06 PM

I would've done things differently, but hey, it's your car. After all it's you who has to drive it not me. The main thing is that you aquired a performance gain, and that's one of the things that you were looking for. As for my car, I did do it differently than you did. I would've went to a 2.5" diameter if I were you like the Kook's exhaust system is. But I agree w/your comments about going w/the hi-flow cats in the future, and ofcourse w/the Kook's headers since that's what I have on my car, and I luv them.

I'm surprised to hear you say that the Magnaflow mufflers aren't loud enough for you. (is that what you meant?).But are you sure that you have the straight-thru design Magnaflow mufflers? Because they also make 18" baffled mufflers too. That's why I often list on here for people the magnaflow part # of the straight-thru "wide open" ones (part #14355). I'm sure that adding headers will change the exhaust sound a bit more, but how much more is difficult for me to say since I did everything at once. Good luck friend. :)

muslhed

02-19-2004, 09:21 PM

They are definately they straight thru design, not the chambered ones.

BillyGman

02-19-2004, 09:29 PM

Not to argue w/you, but what makes you so sure? Did you see the part # on the box? Or were you there when they were installing them and took a drop light to look through them? I say that because I did the installation myself, and I did look into the mufflers w/a light on the other end before I installed them, and I saw right to the other side.

I'm merely bringing that up simply because of how surprised I am that you would actually want your car to be louder on the street than what it is now. If they really are the straight-thru 18" Magnaflows that you have(and NOT the 22" ones either) then you must be one of those guys who really wants his car to be so loud that it's to a point of being annoying to all others around you even when you're not reving it up.

But again, if that is the case, then to each his own my friend......
Please let me add though that I'm basing my statements on how my car sounds, and I believe that it's quite possible that mine is a bit louder than someone else's Marauder is even if they DO have the same mufflers as I do on my car because I also have the long tube headers too.

muslhed

02-19-2004, 09:48 PM

I was there during the entire installation. I am sure it is the straight thru design....because I looked thru it. They are certainly the 18"ers, and I know this because I stuck a tape measure up to it before they were installed. No, I am not one of those guys who really wants his car to be so loud that it's to a point of being annoying to all others around you even when you're not reving it up!

I've been hot-rodding cars since I began driving, and this is the first car I've ever owned that wasn't quite noticably louder after making this many changes to the exhaust. Like I said, the factory silenced tips are probably just still muffling it a bit. Thank you for your feedback!

BillyGman

02-19-2004, 09:54 PM

yes, I'm simply trying to provide you w/feedback as well as to others who will read this thread who are also contemplating an exhaust change. So I just hope that you aren't taking me the wrong way. I don't have the deleted tips and my car is plenty loud. So I'm just trying to figure out why your car isn't. The only other thing that I can think of than your taste in exhaust noise being different than mine is that it must be the Kook's headers that I have, or maybe it might be that an aftermarket less restrictive cat muffles the sound less than a stock cat does. because I do have the hi-flow cats also whereas you don't. I hope this helps.

FordNut

02-19-2004, 10:06 PM

After ya'll read what I had done, please tell me what you think.

We removed the back 2 cats completey, and replaced the 2" pipe running from there to the mufflers with 2.25" pipe. We also installed an X-pipe in place of the puny H-pipe. After that we welded in my new 18" Magnaflows. So, the ending result was a complete 2.25" exhaust system with an X-pipe, the front 2 stock cats, and a pair of 18" Magnaflows.

Soon I'll order Kooks Headers to compliment the system, as well as a pair of hi flow cats to replace the 2 front factory ones. For now, the exhaust sounds much better, but not nearly as loud as I had expected. I assume that the factory "silenced" tips are still muffling it a bit. It seems like it has picked up some power as well.

Here's what I think: Too bad you didn't get before & after dyno tests. I would imagine this mod picked up about 10 hp. The OEM cats are probably keeping it quiet to a larger degree than the tips, but the use of 2.25" rather than 2.5" pipes & mufflers could also have an effect. I think the Kook's headers and 2.5" high flow cats should be connected to the x-pipe with 2.5" pipe, then leave the 2.25" pipe from the x-pipe to the mufflers. Get the rest of the mods (chip, gears, pulleys, plugs, thermostat) and see what it does on the dyno. I've been wondering about the torque difference between a 2.5" and 2.25" system.

junehhan

02-19-2004, 11:13 PM

Kook's makes Stainless steel headers, and besides that, their standard ones are steel, and are ceramic coated inside and out, which is said by everyone to hold up for many years. And the Magnaflow mufflers that they sell w/the kit are the stainless steel ones (magnaflow part #14355). So you should give Nick at Kook's a call, or Dennis Reinhart if you would rather go w/what he offers.

And BTW, I wasn't aware that you needed a chip in order to avoid any "check engine" light from going on w/exhaust modifications unless you were to eliminate the cats. And both Kook's as well as Dennis's exhaust packages include hi-flow cats w/them. Are you sure of what you're talking about?

So, even if I get the headers along with the high flow cats, x-pipe, and catback exhaust from whoever, you are saying that it won't eventually set off a check engine light? The reason I ask, is back when I had my 01 SVT Cobra, lots of people who even put in an x-pipe with high flow cats eventually had a check engine light pop on for some reason. Also, without a chip, won't running these exhaust mods also mess around with the air/fuel ratio, and other variables potentially causing drivability issues without a chip?

Thanks

BillyGman

02-19-2004, 11:50 PM

Like I said, as far as the need for a chip or a reburn of your present chip simply because of an exhaust change, I don't know of there being any need for that, and when I installed my headers, Dennis told me that I do NOT need to have my chip re-burned. And I didn't.

As far as hi-flow cats the main thing is that you install exhaust componants that have provisions for the O2 sensors. And on our cars as I'm sure it is w/all 03, and 04 cars you have the primary O2 sensors as well as the secondary ones. So there are four of them all togehter. The Kooks exhaust package has the threaded bungs welded right into the headers(for the primary sensors) and into the muffler pipe (for the secondary sensors).And I'm sure that Dennis's package has the O2 bungs needed also. If you just go replacing exhaust pieces w/out hooking up those sensors again, then you're going to throw a code and therefore get a "check engine" light coming on. I've driven my car over 4000 miles since installing the Kooks system and w/out any chip re-burn and It's been fine.

Haggis

02-20-2004, 05:42 AM

.... That's why I often list on here for people the magnaflow part # of the straight-thru "wide open" ones (part #14355). I'm sure that adding headers will change the exhaust sound a bit more, but how much more is difficult for me to say since I did everything at once. Good luck friend. :)

Billy, are you sure you have the right part #. I went to the Magnaflow website and it states part # 14355 is for the 2.25" OD 18" non-baffled muffler and the part # for the 18" 2.5" OD non-baffled mufflers as #14356. I even called a couple of Dealers in my area to double check, gave them the part # 14356 and they told me that they were the 18" 2.5" OD straight thru design. Please double check as will I, thanks.

Went back to Magnaflow this link will take you to the parts page. Do we want the 4x9 oval or the 5x8 oval?
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/ss.htm

Fourth Horseman

02-20-2004, 09:15 AM

I've been hot-rodding cars since I began driving, and this is the first car I've ever owned that wasn't quite noticably louder after making this many changes to the exhaust. Like I said, the factory silenced tips are probably just still muffling it a bit. Thank you for your feedback!

I've got the factory tips on my car still and with my mufflers the car is nice and quiet at idle but is louder and more aggressive sounding under throttle. Just my opinion, but I don't think it's all your tips doing it unless yours are different than mine.

BillyGman

02-20-2004, 09:47 AM

Haggis, I can see why your "not just for breakfast anymore" (LOL)....yes you're correct on that one, but the reason why I've listed part # 14355 is because that one can be used for a 2.25" muffler pipe or a 2.5" muffler pipe.(the "muffler pipe" being the exhaust pipe that goes into the inlet side of the muffler). When I bought the KOOKS bolt-on exhaust kit, they supplied me w/the #14355 mufflers(which are the 2.25" ones) and had "bull-nosed" the inlet side of them to expand them enough to make them slide snuggly over the 2.5" muffler pipes that were included w/the kit.And they also supply some good quality sealing type muffler clamps to make the connection w/out having to weld them. And any muffler shop can "bull-nose' the inlets for you.

So if you had 2.25" muffler pipes or 2.5' ones, those 2.25" mufflers can be used. So I've listed that part #14355 since it would be more versatile for anyone who needed it because you can always have a muffler shop expand or "bull-nose" the muffler inlets if you have 2.5" diameter muffler pipes, but ofcourse if you buy the bigger 2.5" inlet mufflers(which are the part #14356) then you wouldn't be able to shrink them to fit the muffler pipes if they are 2.25" diameter. And from what MAC has stated in one of his posts, it sounds to me like Dennis Reinhart's exhaust package does include muffler pipes that are infact a 2.25" diameter.

So I've listed the 2.25" inlet mufflers simply for versatility. And like Nick at Kooks told me the mufflers being an extra 1/4" smaller in diameter isn't really going to matter since they're straight-thru mufflers anyway and are very un-restrictive no matter which diameter you choose. After all they're merely constructed of a perforated pipe inside them that has packing all around it, and you can see daylight right through them to the other side when you look through one side of them. So even when you're using a special quality muffler clamp that seals out leaks to join the muffler pipe to the muffler inlets like Kooks supplies you w/so that you do NOT have to weld them, you would want the #14355 mufflers even if you had 2.5'' diameter muffler pipes, because if you bought the 2.5" mufflers,then you would have to have them welded instead of being able to use a good quality sealing type clamp.

So again, that gives you greater versatility by using the part #14355 because you can go w/those weather you're going to install them yourself, and want to be able to bolt them on w/out having to weld the inlets to the muffler pipes going into them, or you're welding them. I hope that I haven't confused you.

Haggis

02-20-2004, 10:02 AM

So if you had 2.25" muffler pipes or 2.5' ones, those 2.25" mufflers can be used. So I've listed that part #14355 since it would be more versatile for anyone who needed it because you can always have a muffler shop expand or "bull-nose" the muffler inlets if you have 2.5" diameter muffler pipes, but ofcourse if you buy the bigger 2.5" inlet mufflers(which are the part #14356) then you wouldn't be able to shrink them to fit the muffler pipes if they are 2.25" diameter. And from what MAC has stated in one of his posts, it sounds to me like Dennis Reinhart's exhaust package does include muffler pipes that are infact a 2.25" diameter.

I hope that I haven't confused you.

What me confused Nah. H E L P !! :help:

I ordered the 2.5" OD because that is what I thought I needed. To fit on the exhaust package. Hopefully either Dennis or Mac or someone anyone else who is familiar with Dennis's exhaust can set me straight on which is the correct size muffler to use.

Thanks Billy, I do appreciate it. :help: HELP :help:

TAF

02-20-2004, 10:04 AM

What me confused Nah. H E L P !! :help:

I ordered the 2.5" OD because that is what I thought I needed. To fit on the exhaust package. Hopefully either Dennis or Mac or someone anyone else who is familiar with Dennis's exhaust can set me straight on which is the correct size muffler to use.

Thanks Billy, I do appreciate it. :help: HELP :help:
You're fine...Dennis' X-pipe has 2.5" coming out of it...but it comes up about 24"-30" short of the mufflers. Your installer will need to fabricate the 2.5" from the X leading into the mufflers...then they'll use a coupling AFTER the mufflers to tie into your stock tailpipe...No worries Gordon. :up:

Haggis

02-20-2004, 10:08 AM

You're fine...Dennis' X-pipe has 2.5" coming out of it...but it comes up about 24"-30" short of the mufflers. Your installer will need to fabricate the 2.5" from the X leading into the mufflers...then they'll use a coupling AFTER the mufflers to tie into your stock tailpipe...No worries Gordon. :up:

What about hooking up to the tail pipe? Oh by the way Dennis said he would hook them up for me when I go to see him. What a great guy!!

Thanks Tod.

BillyGman

02-20-2004, 11:05 AM

yeah, it can be done,provided you're going to have it done by someone who welds, and has bending equippment too for the tailpipe. It's just a bit more work to perform than if you had purchased the #14355 mufflers instead. If you were doing the work yourself, then I don't think you would be able to get it done w/the bigger diameter ones.

Mattsmerc

02-20-2004, 05:05 PM

Well my time will come soon. Until then I will use my g-tech to find out what I have now. Then I will install DR exaust with stock mufflers. Use the G-Tech again to see my gains. After all that I will load up my flowmaster 40 series and have my muffler shop bend up some 2.5 tail pipes and finish the install with delete tips. I'm thinking this is going to be a bit LOUD. And again check to see any gains with bigger tail pipes. My whole thought is why not have all the pipes 2.5.

TAF

02-20-2004, 05:33 PM

My whole thought is why not have all the pipes 2.5.
Cause...to be honest...your waisting your money getting the tailpipes from the mufflers to the tips mandrel bent (there are a LOT of bends) and taking what is already a very nice 2.25" tailpipe and replacing it with 2.5". The exhaust is cold enough after leaving the mufflers that there is NO gain to be had here.

Now, what I WAS going to do is have the tailpipes polished, cause you can see them through the rear wheels and I thought it would look nice to have polished all the way out. But...I decided to forego that route and just have the tailpipes painted black...to effectively make them disappear.

Mattsmerc

02-20-2004, 07:23 PM

OK now I see. I went and looked at all those bends. Yea. I guess I will leave the tail pipes. Thanks Todd

TAF

02-20-2004, 07:29 PM

Your welcome...and hey, I'll shock some folks here...I aint that smart. I'd just asked the same questions you did to some REALLY knowledgeable exhaust folks some time ago when I had mine done...and they set me straight.

That's what's great about this place...just ask, 'cause one of us long-timers have probably already been there. :up:

muslhed

02-20-2004, 10:14 PM

Well, here's a little update on my new exhaust. It seems to have gotten somewhat louder, and has developed a nice deep tone, that is not too offensive for passengers. I'll probably leave the factory silencer tips on, because I feel that if I removed them, it might be a little too loud. It took about 100 miles of interstate driving to get everything "broke in". It also seems to have picked up more in the power department as well. We'll see how she does tomorrow, for my second trip to the track, since I bought her last December. Again, thanks for all the advise!

Cobra25

02-21-2004, 04:13 PM

greyghost

02-21-2004, 04:20 PM

Well questions,questions questions, I have one .I ordered the Reinhart system ,on the muffler's I don't want Flowmasters, Magnaflows I had on my truck ,didn't like them what I'm looking for in a set of mufflers that have a deep 6o 's sound like the big Blocks back then. Any body have something like this or simular?
I don't think you can achieve that sound with a 280 ci Dbl. overhead cam motor. You need big cubic inches and lots of low end torque. The 4.6 just doesn't have it. Now I am sure there will be someone that will be along shortly that will tell you it can be done and how to do it.

Good Luck!!

MarauderMark

02-21-2004, 04:34 PM

Wasn't there those mufflers called cherry bombs? or something to that effect.

FordNut

02-21-2004, 04:53 PM

Well questions,questions questions, I have one .I ordered the Reinhart system ,on the muffler's I don't want Flowmasters, Magnaflows I had on my truck ,didn't like them what I'm looking for in a set of mufflers that have a deep 6o 's sound like the big Blocks back then. Any body have something like this or simular?

Try the Edelbrock Performer RPM's. They're satin finish stainless, have ceramic packing instead of fiberglass, are flow through design, and mine was the loudest car at Cracker Barrel this morning. Cost me $99 each at Summit.