Bye Bye Eibachs

[Zack]

This is intended to be an information thread, no bashing or anything else.
I had the Eibach springs installed in Early Summer of 03, and a happy customer I was as well. The cornering was improved tremendously as the aggressive stance. The ride quality was not ideal, but pros outweighed the cons. A few months went by and I started to notice my steering wheel felt 'loose' as well as the car not hugging the road like it used to. Bump steer (the movement of the steering wheel as you pass over a hole in the road or bump) was noticeable now where it was not just after installation. At this point I thought I had rack and pinion problems, but winter was knocking and the car was parked.
The story picks up 2 weeks ago, the weather is Marauder friendly and I start to drive the car regularly. Every sensation I felt in the Fall was doubled now, and driving this car is now is not pleasant. Bumps are dreadful. The car is bouncing, not absorbing bumps like it should. Bump steer is awful, especially during WOT runs. Imagine accelerating and fighting the car to go straight (at 80-100mph). Im still thinking suspension problems, but 2 things came to mind.
-Did Eibach have time to test these springs? They may be similar to another car application, but with an aluminum front end???
-Kenny Brown cars have had no problems and achieve the desired results of an Eibach with a superior ride.

So I dug my factory springs out, cut 3/4 of a coil off and had them installed for $140. This is no lie folks, every problem I discussed was gone.
The steering wheel feels tight again, the car hugs the road like glue and bump steer has been completely eliminated. Although the car does not sit quite as low as the Eibachs, I am more than satisfied with its stance.
No more bouncing, just a mild mannered car in a straight line with the features of a performance spring in the corners.
As far as I know, I am the only person to comparison test both springs.
Ultimately I am satisfied with cutting the factory springs.
This I can tell you for sure, Eibach springs undergo a complete personality change with time. You may be satisfied, I was not.

[jgc61sr2002]

Zack - I would contact Eibach, it is possible that your springs are defective. IMO. :(

[SergntMac]

Zack - I would contact Eibach, it is possible that your springs are defective. IMO. :(
Yep, it's possible, John, but I think it's defective is less remote a posibility than what Zack suggests, that Eibach didn't use their lead time to "test and tune" their product, and just shoved them out there.

A refund may be in order, yes. Zack's dissatisfaction is fairly well documented. He's logged quite a few hours behind the wheel of the #1x, OTR, 1/4 mile and street crusing, and this is the car that started it all. I've endured a lot of his complaining, and I wonder how many of you have endured "feeling" you own "close, but no cigar" opinion on the Eibach springs, but haven't said anything? I recall when dennis offered his opinion as "harsh" and "bouncy." We spent a lot of time paraphrasing what he meant, but Dennis has spent some time in the #1x saddle too.

Kenny Brown cuts springs to get his ideal ride and impressive stance. I know that "cutting springs" is not a favorable topic here, however, Kenny cuts them right, and right on the money. The ride and control on my MM-1x earns compliments from every driver who's had a taste. The Eibach springs may give you that KB look, but not it's control.

Zack's intent was to duplicate the control as best he could, and he has now found what pleases him. I admire his courage to step forward and do something about it, and then talk about making this change. I also wonder how many of y'all may be likewise disappointed, but not so ready to act on that, or, discuss it.

Bravo, Zack, thanks!

[Logan]

Zack's experience mirrors my own experience. Recently the ride quality, which was never the best, has gone to crap and I've got the same battle keepin' her straight at 80+ under power...

I'll be following Zack's lead and yanking my eibach's in favor of cut factory coils.

Thanks for posting up Zack. I hadn't really considered chopping my factory coils down and was just kinda dwelling on the whole subject.

[MI2QWK4U]

For Zack and Logan....
Are you going to contact Eibach and see whats up? I was the first one I know of that put the Eibachs on in the forum, and have had no problems with them yet. Zach posted some valid questions Eibach should have to answer. When I checked into the Eibachs, I asked around, read reviews of other products, and people for the most part had good recomendations, and the brand has a good track record. Why then is it possible that these springs are *****? Can you guys contact them and see what they have to say? They may want your springs for testing. When I dug mine out the last week, I commented to myself it felt good to be back in the saddle, and things felt just like I remember them. I am just really concerned and I think you two may have a certain obligation to us that may have them on their cars already. I know I would feel the need to get some answers on behalf of my fellow members here...

[Zack]

Well to be honest with you Dave, this 'trial and error' has left me with an answer, and an answer that Im happy with. Like I said before, some may be happy with the feel of the Eibachs, but have those same people driven a car with cut factory coils?? My dealer actually questioned me as to why Id ever want to take the Eibachs out. When I picked up the car, he swallowed his words and was amazed at the positive difference the cut coils made.
Sometimes I wonder if these 'single rate springs' are 'at home' in a car with an aluminum crossmember and aluminum front end components.
Will I contact Eibach? No.
Im gonna be happy with my new setup and never look back.

[FordNut]

From my recollections, everybody was begging for parts to modify their MMs a year or so ago. Eibach made a small run of the springs which were quickly grabbed up. I would consider these as "beta" units, which would normally be evaluated in real world operation for some time before actual production units were released.

Several members installed the "beta" units, and at least one, a highly respected sponsor, took them back off claiming it ruined the ride qualities of the car. Several other comments were made about them changing the suspension geometry such that re-alignment required some adjustments to be set to the full limit.

Instead of waiting for long term results of the real world testing of the "beta" units, everybody started begging for more, more, more. Our bad. As a manufacturer, Eibach responded to the demands of the market before long term test data was collected. Their bad.

My impression is that the springs (like any other spring) sag after some time and use under load. Since the suspension is already adjusted to the limits, it probably can not be compensated for any more. But due to manufacturing variations from one car to another, some may not be adjusted to the limits and will be ok with the springs after re-alignment.

Just my impressions...

[MI2QWK4U]

Zack, im not questioning your choice to go back...Im cool with whatever you or anyone does, especially under the circumstances. Whether or not I like the ride doesnt matter. Its all preferences. What I AM concerned with is a possible defect or problem with the eibachs, that make sense? I guess I was hoping you might at least call them, since you are the one with the situation, and maybe get some idea whether or not they may have a problem with the springs. This is my family car after all, so i guess i was just concerned. I would appreciate any info you might be able to provide. Thanks in advance Zack, oh...and by the way...just about 90 percent of people at the Autorama prefered your badgeless grill over the stock one parked 3 feet away!
Dave

[CRUZTAKER]

Having put an entire 50 miles on my Eibachs, this thread is disturbing.

[Zack]

Thanks for the compliment on the grill, Dave.
I think the bottom line of my thinking is this...
Ive spent the time, money and real world testing with both spring set-ups.
Do I want to get involved with Eibach or one of their Factory Reps to improve a spring for a dying car model? No.
I dont want answers, the springs have spoken loud enough already.

[Zack]

Having put an entire 50 miles on my Eibachs, this thread is disturbing.

I was thinking of you when I dropped my car off...
Sorry dude, I owe you a beer!!

[RCSignals]

Couple of comments.
As for the idea of "Beta" units. If this is in fact what one could consider them, "Beta" testers don't normally have to "pay" for the privilege.

Mercury did not just throw a set of front springs at our cars, they did some of their own testing for ride, handling and comfort, and settled on modified CVPI springs. I'd think the stock ones aren't all that bad.

[Billatpro]

Zack's experience mirrors my own experience. Recently the ride quality, which was never the best, has gone to crap and I've got the same battle keepin' her straight at 80+ under power...

I'll be following Zack's lead and yanking my eibach's in favor of cut factory coils.

Thanks for posting up Zack. I hadn't really considered chopping my factory coils down and was just kinda dwelling on the whole subject.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this but I'm glad I did. I guess it's one of the reasons I did not jump to mod my car, I wanted to take a wait and see position on this and this is just one thing that proves to me that my choice was the right one.

There has been so much done to this car by members of this board it blows my mind! Now that the model is dying I don't know that I will ever mod my car. On the other hand I have missed out on a lot of the fun enjoyed by most of you with your cars.

Thanks to all of you brave enough to fordge ahead and set the mark for the rest of us, showing us the strength and weakness of these mod's and our cars. What an incredible group of people.

[Thomas C Potter]

A strong possibility is the effect of the higher spring rate, therefore force, seen at the shock and the subsequent deterioration of the internals. OEM's have the engineers and testing resources to get the proper balance of a dampened spring system. I have modified several cars with spring rates that double, or more, the factory rate. I have experienced shortened shock life, i.e. leaks, lost dampening, even broken rods. Some of the lovely issues you get when playing!! But I've never had the degree of problems that Zack had.

TP Blue 03

[rookie1]

I used to run a mfg facility in Detroit where about 50% of our business was processing the raw steel for OEM springs, mostly GM but some Ford as well(Chrysler did not process their spring stock). For both GM and Ford we would eddy current test each round, peel about 1/32" off the OD, pressure polish to smooth and add a martensite layer, eddy current test again then ship. I was at OEM facilities during durability testing and the OEM springs are tested to the mathematical equivalent of 175k miles. We used to hold +/- .001" tolerances on the diameter and length tolerances of around 1/16" if I remember.
My point being that there is a tremendous amount of engineering and quality/durability testing that goes into something as mundane as a OEM spring and there are alot of things that can and do go wrong. I've seen more than 50 tons at a time of spring stock get rejected due to metallurgical problems without so much as a blink of an eye. I've seen worn mandrils at the factory cause 1,000s of finished springs rejected before it was caught. I've also had to sit there eating crow when it was us that f'd up a batch of the stock(not pleasant at all).
Tuners and aftermarket spring suppliers don't and can't have that much control over the whole process but most will warranty their work.

[TAF]

Glad you got it worked out to your satisfaction, Zack.

No problems with my Eibachs. I LOVE the way my car looks, handles and rides at high speeds.:up:

[TooManyFords]

So I dug my factory springs out, cut 3/4 of a coil off and had them installed for $140. This is no lie folks, every problem I discussed was gone.
The steering wheel feels tight again, the car hugs the road like glue and bump steer has been completely eliminated. Although the car does not sit quite as low as the Eibachs, I am more than satisfied with its stance.
Zack, you didn't happen to get snap happy and take pictures of what you did to the springs to help the rest of us out, did you?

Since I've always been looking for a softer ride, the Eibachs were never for me. I so much wanted to do the coil cut thing but wanted to know for sure just how much could be cut off. I'd like to get down another inch in the front, but am unsure if the 3/4 cut will get it there or not.

Anyone else got pictures of the anatomy of a coil cut? Sure would help us garage mechanics before jumping right in!

John

[MarauderMark]

My impression is that the springs (like any other spring) sag after some time and use under load. Since the suspension is already adjusted to the limits, it probably can not be compensated for any more. But due to manufacturing variations from one car to another, some may not be adjusted to the limits and will be ok with the springs after re-alignment.

Just my impressions...[/QUOTE]What he said/\.and you put (cut) oem springs back in .it may feel good at first but after some time it may go back to what the other set did.maybe should've installed the oem springs w/o cutting them .boy im glad i didnt get them whew.. just a thought..

[MitchB]

Quick question to you all: after installing your Eibachs, did you torque the suspension attaching bolts with the suspension at ride height to avoid preloading the bushings? After the suspension settled (if it did), did you try loosening and then retorquing the control arm bolts? With the suspension lowered, how does the camber change with compression as compared to the stock springs? Several guys installed Eibachs on our Thunderbirds and several of us sent or struts back to Bilstein for revalving. The damping rates as delivered for the stock suspension did not work with the Eibachs.

Some food for thought...

Mitch

[John F. Russo]

I have the same experience as SergntMac. This is expected since we both have the same Kenny Brown conversion.

Kenny Brown comes through again!


______________________________ ___________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed
traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer,
clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
-16,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
-Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
-Wheel locks (Ford)
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing; RainX
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03 (first drove it)
-Vortech supercharger (5 to 9 psig boost)
-377 RWTQ
-4.10 gears
-Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Ford Racing Stud and Girdle
-Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y; rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-Dead pedal
-FordChip
-3/4 of a coil from each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ___________________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)

[BillyGman]

Tom Potter, and Mitch B have both brought up the point that I was thinking about while I was reading this thread. What about the stock shock absorbers? Are they compatible w/these Eibach springs? maybe they're aren't. But it's definately something you have to consider if you're going to opt for changing the springs, or altering the stock springs for that matter.

What about the kenny brown Marauders? Do they have different shock absorbers? these questions need answers BEFORE you decide to change or alter the springs. When you go and start changing parts(especially ones like suspension parts which work together w/other ones) then weather you realize it or not, you become your own engineer. And therefore you can run into unanticipated problems that the after market companies who you purchase your parts from aren't neccessarily going to inform you of.

I'm not playing armchair quarterback here. I'm just posing a question for you guys that have opted to alter your Marauder's suspension that I hope will be food for thought.

It is my understanding that during the 2003 year, the factory shock absorbers that were installed on the new Marauders were changed. Soif that's true, then perhaps that would explain why some guys have NOT had the problems w/the Eibach springs that Zack has had, while others have had the same problem.

[Dennis Reinhart]

This is intended to be an information thread, no bashing or anything else.
I had the Eibach springs installed in Early Summer of 03, and a happy customer I was as well. The cornering was improved tremendously as the aggressive stance. The ride quality was not ideal, but pros outweighed the cons. A few months went by and I started to notice my steering wheel felt 'loose' as well as the car not hugging the road like it used to. Bump steer (the movement of the steering wheel as you pass over a hole in the road or bump) was noticeable now where it was not just after installation. At this point I thought I had rack and pinion problems, but winter was knocking and the car was parked.
The story picks up 2 weeks ago, the weather is Marauder friendly and I start to drive the car regularly. Every sensation I felt in the Fall was doubled now, and driving this car is now is not pleasant. Bumps are dreadful. The car is bouncing, not absorbing bumps like it should. Bump steer is awful, especially during WOT runs. Imagine accelerating and fighting the car to go straight (at 80-100mph). Im still thinking suspension problems, but 2 things came to mind.
-Did Eibach have time to test these springs? They may be similar to another car application, but with an aluminum front end???
-Kenny Brown cars have had no problems and achieve the desired results of an Eibach with a superior ride.

So I dug my factory springs out, cut 3/4 of a coil off and had them installed for $140. This is no lie folks, every problem I discussed was gone.
The steering wheel feels tight again, the car hugs the road like glue and bump steer has been completely eliminated. Although the car does not sit quite as low as the Eibachs, I am more than satisfied with its stance.
No more bouncing, just a mild mannered car in a straight line with the features of a performance spring in the corners.
As far as I know, I am the only person to comparison test both springs.
Ultimately I am satisfied with cutting the factory springs.
This I can tell you for sure, Eibach springs undergo a complete personality change with time. You may be satisfied, I was not.


Dam seems like some one said months ago the exact same thing would happen. I believe the same person said these springs would sag even more with age. I tokk them off after two weeks. as Logan says enough said. :nono:

[RCSignals]

Aren't these Eibach springs really just the same as what they sell for F150s?
Those do "fit" on CVs and GMs. How else did Eibach come up with something so fast for Marauders?

[SergntMac]

What about the kenny brown Marauders? Do they have different shock absorbers?
Nope. Same as everyone else.

It is my understanding that during the 2003 year, the factory shock absorbers that were installed on the new Marauders were changed. So if that's true, then perhaps that would explain why some guys have NOT had the problems w/the Eibach springs that Zack has had, while others have had the same problem.
AIRI, some MMs slipped through assmebly line QC with standard GM shocks and springs. No design changes though.

[BillyGman]

Nope. Same as everyone else.

AIRI, some MMs slipped through assmebly line QC with standard GM shocks and springs. No design changes though.

Thanks for your reply about the Kenny Brown cars MAC. About the shocks though, I was thinking that since some MM's came w/those different shocks, that perhaps the dapening rate on them is different, as well as the travel. Just a hunch.

[TAF]

I think the springs issue is subjective...not unlike the discussions about..."will it make my exhaust too loud?"

[BillyGman]

.not unlike the discussions about..."will it make my exhaust too loud?"

yeah, but will it??? And is it better to make the exhaust piping diameter 2.5" or 2.4999"??? And is the Marauder too Black???

[TAF]

yeah, but will it??? And is it better to make the exhaust piping diameter 2.5" or 2.4999"??? And is the Marauder too Black???
Hey...you got your poster framed/up yet?

[BillyGman]

naw man.........been too caught up w/this new lady friend I guess. :rolleyes:

these long distance relationships aren't all roses.......and the problem is that I'm the one who has to pay for the "roses" anyway. But a little bit of buyer's remorse is beginning to set in..........(uh, but that's another story for another thread I guess.....one that probably shouldn't be started).

[TAF]

Billy, Billy, Billy...don't you know that women are the root of all evil? Every $ you spend on "roses" is another $ you are away from acquiring your most sought after relationship...
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_10.jpg
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/media_gallery.asp?gallery=CURR ENT_VIDEO&bhcp=1

[BillyGman]

GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!! Todd, you really know how to hurt a guy......that car is my achiles heel if I've ever had one!!!!!!!!

[MARAUDERCHICK]

Billy, Billy, Billy...don't you know that women are the root of all evil? Every $ you spend on "roses" is another $ you are away from acquiring your most sought after relationship...

:fire: I beg your pardon!!!!!:fire:

[TAF]

:fire: I beg your pardon!!!!!:fire:
Uh....uh....sorry....'cept for "cool chicks" like you, Kathy...:depress:

[MARAUDERCHICK]

Uh....uh....sorry....'cept for "cool chicks" like you, Kathy...:depress:
Thanks "sweetie"....I feel all better now!!:P :D ;) ;)

[Dr Caleb]

If this is in fact what one could consider them, "Beta" testers don't normally have to "pay" for the privilege.


Bwahahahahaha! How do you think Microsoft got so big??? "The world is my beta site" - Bill Gates

[SergntMac]

About the shocks though, I was thinking that since some MM's came w/those different shocks, that perhaps the dapening rate on them is different, as well as the travel. Just a hunch.
Not a hunch, Billy, you're dead on correct. Of course the valving and travel is different, not just from a handling point of view, but ride height (the Marauder is lower than the GM from the factory) as well as compensating for the difference in engine weights. (2V vs. 4V)

The wrong shock and sping for the Marauder was an assembly line goof, and it got fixed. There are no design changes in MM suspension, the 300A did not get shocks and springs the 300B did not get. There is one shock part number and one spring part number in use across the two model years, I know because I just bought a set of four shocks.

It was also mentioned ^ there that this appears a matter of personal preferrence. I agree that on the surface, it appears that way. However, Zack pointed to specific complications with his steering and suspension that he could not repair or correct, and decided that the Eibachs had to go.

Zack prefers the feel of the Kenny Brown treatment over the Eibach, yes, and this much is personal preferrence. The point to keep in mind here, is that Zack made a side by side evaluation of both. How many of you have driven a Kenny Brown car for any length of time, specifically to measure front suspension performance? Well, don't. You may find yourself wanting to make another change.

[BillyGman]

Hmmmmm, well, maybe I shouldn't say this........I mean, I hope that the following statements aren't going to lead this thread down a bad road, but the member on here who's username is "The Dealer" has stated that there are two different shocks put in the Marauder, and that was the reason for my comment MAC.

I'm not saying that you're wrong nor that he is wrong, because I just don't know who is, and who isn't. I guess the only reason I make mention of this is to try to sift through any contradictions concerning this shock absorber issue. If there's something I'm overlooking, then please be patient.

[TooManyFords]

Ok, so I'm looking at doing this mod to my car this weekend. I've got two new sawsall [sic] blades and I've got two questions:

1. Do you cut the top or the bottom of the coil

2. There has been mention of cutting 3/4th of a coil off. Isn't most coil cutting done in whole coils? EG: where the coil fits the bottom A-arm, isn't there a place for the end of the coil to fit into? (assuming it is the bottom that is cut)

I've done replacement coils on my '65 Galaxie and two different 79 F150 4x4's in in all cases the bottom had a special spot where the coil fit. In the Galaxie though, the top had a special flat rubber grommet that looks like it could be in any position. Is this how the MM is?

Thanks in advance!

john

[Fourth Horseman]

AIRI, some MMs slipped through assmebly line QC with standard GM shocks and springs. No design changes though.

Is there an easy way to tell if you got the wrong shocks on your car? Is there a part number stamped into the shocks somewhere or something?

[FordNut]

EG: where the coil fits the bottom A-arm, isn't there a place for the end of the coil to fit into? (assuming it is the bottom that is cut)

I've done replacement coils on my '65 Galaxie and two different 79 F150 4x4's in in all cases the bottom had a special spot where the coil fit. In the Galaxie though, the top had a special flat rubber grommet that looks like it could be in any position. Is this how the MM is?

john
Not much help with answers to your ?s, but the ones I've seen with springs out of them look sort of like an oversize coilover. Not exactly sure how that works out, though. But it's nothing like my early Mustang or '79 F150 4x4.

Hopefully you'll get some more constructive comments and answers.

[woaface]

How might you go about cutting springs? I'm sure I wouldn't trust someone to take some heavy duty sheers to it...(and the boy shutters at the thought, pictures a civic hatchback he saw earlier, slammed so low the wheels stuck out at the bottom...)

[TooManyFords]

I'm going to put them in my vise and use a SAWSALL to cut the coil clean. It's not made out of kryptonite so I should be able to use a metal blade. Guess I'll know more when I get it pulled out.

john

[TooManyFords]

You mentioned 3/4th of a coil. How did you arrive at that figure? You also mentioned that with that much off it sits higher than where the Eibachs were, would you have cut more off if you knew this in advance? If you wanted to get the same height as the Eibachs, how much needs to be cut?

Thanks!

John

[SergntMac]

Is there an easy way to tell if you got the wrong shocks on your car? Is there a part number stamped into the shocks somewhere or something?
I know there are some parts lables on the springs, but I suppose they don't last long in the street. I'll look at my shocks tonight and get back to you, K?

[Zack]

Ok John, hope this helps you out. Remember, when using the Sawzall, go slow. This will create less heat and cut faster.
I cut 3/4 of a coil after making a call to Kenny Brown. 3/4 is cut on Supercharged cars and 1 full coil is cut on non-S/C cars. I prefer the car to be a little lower than it is now, but I believe Ive achieved a perfect balance between stance, ride quality and cornering performance. (To my liking)
Here is a spring cutting guide:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=501/404Spring_016-med.jpg
Here is the stance with 3/4 of a coil cut. From the floor to the lip of the fender is 27 5/8"
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/501/404Spring_011-thumb.jpg
Id love to help you with the positioning of the spring during re-installation, but I did not do the work myself this time. I almost killed myself the last time I did front springs. I would say a good rule of thumb is to align the bottom of the spring to the exact positon you took it out.
Hope this helps you

And will someone please help me post pictures in the posts. I just cant seem to figure it out?????

[Fourth Horseman]

I know there are some parts lables on the springs, but I suppose they don't last long in the street. I'll look at my shocks tonight and get back to you, K?

Thanks, Mac. I appreciate it.

[RCSignals]

Bwahahahahaha! How do you think Microsoft got so big??? "The world is my beta site" - Bill Gates

that's true about Microsoft. They don't tell everyone they are BETA testers. Thing is though, Microsoft never comes out with a finished product.

[CRUZTAKER]

View your pic in the gallery. Right click on the image, click properties, hi-light the url in the properties box, right click the hi-lighted url, click copy.....
Go to your post, click reply, right click in the post area, click paste...now the url to your pic is there, you need only put the correct vb-code in front and behind that url. In this case your image url[/img.] note: drop the dots, I had to do that so the example wouldn't post and error out.

[img]http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=501/404Spring_016-med.jpg

[Zack]

Thanks Barry, I fixed my original post.

[TooManyFords]

Thanks Zack, that was exactly the info I was looking for!

U da man!

[Marauder]

.....I cut 3/4 of a coil after making a call to Kenny Brown. 3/4 is cut on Supercharged cars and 1 full coil is cut on non-S/C cars......
Does Kenny cut the extra 1/4 turn off because of the slightly less weight of the non S/C car? I'm getting my hands on a set of stock MM springs and may go with 3/4 turn to 1 full turn cut off.

[rookie1]

I'm going to put them in my vise and use a SAWSALL to cut the coil clean. It's not made out of kryptonite so I should be able to use a metal blade. Guess I'll know more when I get it pulled out.

john

SAWSALL will work but go slow and use a carbide tipped blade. ASTM spring grades are 1090(super high carbon) or 5160(high carbon,high alloy) typically. Slower blade speed the better.

[TooManyFords]

Thanks for the tips Zack and Rookie1. I better go get a carbide blade before I begin.

John

[rookie1]

Thanks for the tips Zack and Rookie1. I better go get a carbide blade before I begin.

John
you're welcome, after thinking about some more and abrasive wheel would work well also. The factory springs are all sheared as bar stock b4 coiling.

[Logan]

I was chopping down my factory coils tonight, they're going back in tomorrow morning... I started cutting using my trusty carbide bits and sawzall... After 5 minutes of that crap, I pulled out the trusty cutoff wheel and zapped it off... Much easier. Just had to take extra time doing it to make sure the metal didn't heat up much.

I went with a 3/4 cut coil and we'll see how that goes. Being an eibach guy too, I'll add my two pennies on the difference in ride quality tomorrow.

[MI2QWK4U]

Logan, I just dont get what is wrong with the eibachs....mine feel fine.... wish someone could clear this up for us.

[Zack]

Logan, if you wouldnt mind, could you tell us the safety factor doing the front springs in the home garage.
Like I mentioned before, I almost killed myself doing front springs on a 76 Buick years ago. I had just slipped the lower control arm bolt halfway through the hole when the spring compressor gave way, shearing off about 40-50 fine threads off in an instant. Then my shop teacher came by and told me the story of his good friend who was decapitated years ago from a similar experience. Ill still never do front springs, but Im curious.

[Logan]

Well, first off, I'll say this, I'm not doing the swap this time. Don't have the time... Taking it into John Eagle and they'll re-align me while I'm at it...

But the trick to springs is twofold. Respect for the awesome power of a compressed spring, and a top of the line spring compressor. Don't buy cheap spring compressors, but the best damn one you can lay your hands on .

I've seen el-cheapo spring compressors let go before in shop class. Last one I saw damn near went through the top of a fendor on a stang...

Dave, when I first put them on, I was happy, but over time, the ride went to pretty much exactly what Zack described. These springs REALLY need a revalved or adjustable shock, which just isn't available, so... On the bandwagon I jump. :)

If a 3/4 cut coil is good enough for Zack and Kenny Brown, then dammit, it's gonna be good enough for me too. :D

[MI2QWK4U]

Ok Logan, i can appreciate what happened, but why the inconsistency? My car tracks straight and true, feels the same it did when I installed them.

[Logan]

Dunno. I don't have any good answers, I'm just piggy backing on Zack here... ;)

[UncleTim]

I agree with Zack. I had the Eibach springs installed on my 03MM a couple of months ago.These springs are garbage and all they do is ruin my ride and eliminate most of the shock travel. I had a hard time with alignmnent. Hitting ruts is like taking a jackhammer up the ass. Not fun. Oh, it looks cool as long as it's sitting still. Bouncing down the road is fine if you have hydraulics on a 64 chevy and you have Oye Como Va playing on the tune box. But it makes my car look silly and I am going to opt for the altered a-arms so I still have the travel and a decent ride. At least that way I can align it all with little effort. Sometimes we need to step back and admit this was a bad idea. I sure miss my towncar right now. These springs suck.
This is intended to be an information thread, no bashing or anything else.
I had the Eibach springs installed in Early Summer of 03, and a happy customer I was as well. The cornering was improved tremendously as the aggressive stance. The ride quality was not ideal, but pros outweighed the cons. A few months went by and I started to notice my steering wheel felt 'loose' as well as the car not hugging the road like it used to. Bump steer (the movement of the steering wheel as you pass over a hole in the road or bump) was noticeable now where it was not just after installation. At this point I thought I had rack and pinion problems, but winter was knocking and the car was parked.
The story picks up 2 weeks ago, the weather is Marauder friendly and I start to drive the car regularly. Every sensation I felt in the Fall was doubled now, and driving this car is now is not pleasant. Bumps are dreadful. The car is bouncing, not absorbing bumps like it should. Bump steer is awful, especially during WOT runs. Imagine accelerating and fighting the car to go straight (at 80-100mph). Im still thinking suspension problems, but 2 things came to mind.
-Did Eibach have time to test these springs? They may be similar to another car application, but with an aluminum front end???
-Kenny Brown cars have had no problems and achieve the desired results of an Eibach with a superior ride.

So I dug my factory springs out, cut 3/4 of a coil off and had them installed for $140. This is no lie folks, every problem I discussed was gone.
The steering wheel feels tight again, the car hugs the road like glue and bump steer has been completely eliminated. Although the car does not sit quite as low as the Eibachs, I am more than satisfied with its stance.
No more bouncing, just a mild mannered car in a straight line with the features of a performance spring in the corners.
As far as I know, I am the only person to comparison test both springs.
Ultimately I am satisfied with cutting the factory springs.
This I can tell you for sure, Eibach springs undergo a complete personality change with time. You may be satisfied, I was not.

[TooManyFords]

UncleTim, you mentioned altered a-arms... Are you holding out on us? Is there such a beast?

[MARAUDERCHICK]

UncleTim, you mentioned altered a-arms... Are you holding out on us? Is there such a beast?
Yeah Uncle Tim......do tell.......:)

[Logan]

Last night I cut my stock springs down by 3/4 coil and installed them this morning and realigned the front end.

Every bit of issue I had with the Eibach's has disappeared and my front end has risen I guess is now only about 3/4" lower than stock. But lemme tell ya, car tracks MUCH better and handles awesome. Can't wait to attack my next super special weekend project... ;)

I'm ALOT happier now that the eibach's are off my car...

So uh... anyone wanna buy some slightly used springs? :)

[Zack]

Im certainly glad this change was worth it to you.
Are you happy with the height? Like I said before, I think we have the best of everything with 3/4 removed.
Anyone care to try 7/8??????

[SergntMac]

Anyone care to try 7/8??????
Don't push your luck, Zack, the spring police are still watching your house.

[Haggis]

....So uh... anyone wanna buy some slightly used springs? :)


AHHH???? NO Thank you!! :lol:

[TooManyFords]

Im certainly glad this change was worth it to you.
Are you happy with the height? Like I said before, I think we have the best of everything with 3/4 removed.
Anyone care to try 7/8??????
From your experience then, is 1 coil = 1 inch?

John

[TAF]

I wanted to post an email I received from Eibach. I can understand the company policy behind not getting involved/responding to Forums. And I can understand that could get "sticky" with them not being a vendor.

I would suggest those of you with questions feel free to contact Blaine at the email or phone number provided. He'll be glad to answer any questions.


FYI...Blaine is the Technician that developed the springs for the Marauder...

[TAF]

Email from Eibach:

Todd,

I have been informed that company policy prohibits us from responding to Forums/Internet message boards. I can however answer any and all questions (via email or phone call)regarding Eibach's products for the Marauder. Please feel free to contact me or post my name, phone # and email address on the Forum and I will do my best to answer any concerns the members may have. Our products carry a 10 year warranty against factory defects in material and workmanship. Thank you for the information and your concern regarding our reputation on the forum.

For what its worth we are willing to work with Marauder owners if enough interest is shown regarding the development of a front strut upgrade. If I can be of any further assistance, please contact me.

Regards,

Blaine
Tech Support
Eibach Springs, Inc.
909.256.8300 X-114

<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p>

techsupport@Eibach.com

[TAF]

Don't push your luck, Zack, the spring police are still watching your house.I guess this was meant for me...

1) Zack...I can assure you I'm not watching the house...


2) IMHO...cutting springs is "ghetto" :D

and...

3) I'd be interested in the front strut assembly development by Eibach to compliment my springs (which I still LOVE, BTW)...any other takers?

[Logan]

At least we're in good company Zack...

If it's good for KB, it's good for me and after driving the last day & half on the cut spring, the performance just re-affirms the correct decision was to pull the eibach's, espeically in lieu of having any type of an adjustable shock to match up the them...

You go ahead and keep em on there through MMII so we can watch your car doin' the hooptie hop down the street with your then to be worn out Eibachs... :)

[RCSignals]

"front strut upgrade" what front strut?

[RCSignals]

2) IMHO...cutting springs is "ghetto" :D



Yeah, everyone knows you're supposed to heat them until the car drops to the "right" height :beer:

[jettle]

3) I'd be interested in the front strut assembly development by Eibach to compliment my springs (which I still LOVE, BTW)...any other takers?

Im with you Todd!

[UncleTim]

Uhhhhh....I dunno. I don't have a boat....so I don't need any anchors.


AHHH???? NO Thank you!! :lol:

[CRUZTAKER]

Let it be known that there are alot of Eibach owners that WILL NOT be pitching their springs, myself included.

[MI2QWK4U]

Let it be known that there are alot of Eibach owners that WILL NOT be pitching their springs, myself included.

Why is that Barry? Do you have problems with yours?

[CRUZTAKER]

NOT....as in not getting rid of them. I like them!

[Logan]

Say that again in 6 months. I LOVED them when I put them on... For the first 3 months it was great...

[MMM2003]

I emailed the guy from Eibach. I'm interested to hear what they have to say about all this.

Have any of you, which converted back to cut stock springs, send their Eibach springs back to the factory, to have them evaluate and see if there is something wrong with them?

It seems odd, that they were great to start with and then suddenly got "crappy". I would think that maybe the shocks couldn't handle the additional load and started to give.

Any thoughts?

BTW, I have a set of Eibach springs in the trunk. They don't do me any good there. Hopefully I'll have a chance to drive one of each (cut stock and Eibach) springs, before I get them installed.

TIA,

Peter aka MMM2003

[UncleTim]

I, for one...DO NOT enjoy the ride. Especially when I have a load in the trunk. I do not think the spring engineering was well thought out. I plan on altering my a-arms to get the ride I want AND the profile. The handling should be unaffected and I might upgrade the shocks.



Let it be known that there are alot of Eibach owners that WILL NOT be pitching their springs, myself included.

[TAF]

I did some "spirited-driving" today with a buddy of mine who has an '03 Lexus GS 430...he took the wheel as well...said the Marauder handled MUCH better than his GS...and felt MUCH faster, BTW. :up:


Gotta love those Eibach springs!:D

[RCSignals]

I did some "spirited-driving" today with a buddy of mine who has an '03 Lexus GS 430...he took the wheel as well...said the Marauder handled MUCH better than his GS...and felt MUCH faster, BTW. :up:


Gotta love those Eibach springs!:D

:lol:

Oh, I'm sure it's all because of the springs

[martyo]

:lol:

Oh, I'm sure it's all because of the springsThat, and the car was, shall we say, "well ballasted".

[SergntMac]

Hopefully I'll have a chance to drive one of each (cut stock and Eibach) springs, before I get them installed. TIA, Peter aka MMM2003
I believe that part of the problem here, Peter, has been our inability to comparasion shop.

We bought what the factory offered OEM and liked it, and most of us still do. Then we looked at Kenny Brown's suspension treatment, and liked the lower "slammed" look. Then Eibach offers us front springs that will make our MMs look that way, and we scoop them up. What's missing here?

The chance to measure the drivability, of course. Eibach may have done a wonderful job of replicating the "slammed" look for our MMs, but the calendar says they did not have a lot of time for product research and development. While the "slammed" look wins visual appeal, only time in the field in a driver's hands will reveal the true performance enhancements, or, disappointments. There was little, if any, test driving involved.

Peter, you and I are not that far apart. Let's see what we can do to get together and give you some time behind the wheel of an MM with the KB treatment. Maybe we can locate a third MM with the Eibach springs too, and you can evaluate both before you install the Eibach springs.

This may not be the perfect solution, but it's more field testing than ever took place before. Just my .02C.

[MI2QWK4U]

Mac, lets be fair here, no one has any idea what the Eibach testing regime was like. I know when I spoke with Eibach engineer last year he indicated what all they put into the spring in terms of design, engineering, and hands on testing on a vehicle loaned to them by Mercury. I understand he is a company employee, but he was proud of the springs, not a salesman. I have had mine installed for the longest of everyone here, with no noticable problems. Were Zack's springs the ones I bought for you to take back from the trilogy open house? If so they were from the same batch as mine....its more of a curiosity now as to what the problem is.

[MMM2003]

I believe that part of the problem here, Peter, has been our inability to comparasion shop.

Peter, you and I are not that far apart. Let's see what we can do to get together and give you some time behind the wheel of an MM with the KB treatment. Maybe we can locate a third MM with the Eibach springs too, and you can evaluate both before you install the Eibach springs.

This may not be the perfect solution, but it's more field testing than ever took place before. Just my .02C.

Hey Mac,

I'll be at the Dynotune on April 3 in Wauconda. I believe Zack will be there, as well as Barry (Cruztaker). I'm hoping to catch a ride with each one to see how they handle with the different Springs installed.

BTW, I don't think Eibach would release any Springs without proper testing and development. I don't know, but maybe its a combination of different components being added, that make the overall ride different. I'm sure Eibach tested only with a stock MM. If you add the rear sway bar, your control arms, different, bigger brakes and lots more power, this may have an effect on how the springs behave and feel.

Just my $.02.

I would hope that Zack (or Logan) could send his Springs to Eibach for an evaluation and see if anything is wrong with them.

Thanks,

Peter

[SergntMac]

Were Zack's springs the ones I bought for you to take back from the trilogy open house? If so they were from the same batch as mine....its more of a curiosity now as to what the problem is.
Nope. But, one set went to Dennis for testing.

[MI2QWK4U]

I would hope that Zack (or Logan) could send his Springs to Eibach for an evaluation and see if anything is wrong with them.

Thanks,

Peter

That was what I was hoping they would do, I'm glad someone else agrees.
Dave

[MI2QWK4U]

I would highly suggest you folks give Blaine at Eibach a call or email him, his contact info is listed below. I just spent a good hour talking to him about the situation we find in this thread. I had spoken with him last year before I purchased my set, and he was as informative now as he was then. He is not a salesman, he is an engineer that develops systems for cars. I challange anyone here to give him a call with your thoughts, concerns, or observations. It has been suggested by persons here that there wasn't enough lead time to develop and design a spring for our car, since they were so new. He shattered that theory quickly. He indicated the design to prototype to production time is as fast as 2 weeks, to a month. Ask him about the Mazdas they just did, design, prototype, to 12 production units for Mazda in 2 weeks. As indicated the test cars are provided by the Manufacturer, the springs are tested in the labs, metal is sampled for content, etc, etc. these springs hit the market several months after the Marauder was released in summer 02. He personally worked on the Marauder project and says there is no difference between them and any other spring they produce in terms of quality and design. Another falsehood was the phantom "beta units" theory. No such thing exhists. Once the prototypes are tested , they go to production. Now they are willing to produce a top of the line strut that will complement the springs. However they need a commitment from us to purchase 100 sets before they will make them. For us that have springs already, we just get the struts, for those that want both, you will buy the springs and struts as a kit. The cost of these struts will be very reasonable, couple of hundred bucks. Folks, I will say it again, these are good quality springs that do what they are supposed to. I measured my wheelwell lips again today....like I did when I installed my eibachs last year....and low and behold....oh my god...the measurements were identical. NO sag, no droop, no settling. My Marauder has been sitting on those springs for LONGER than any other member here. Period. Without people that are experiencing a problem, Zack and Logan, returning the springs to Eibach for evaluation, we/they can only speculate as to where the problem lies. I wouldnt be supprised if they would pay for your shipping to return them, and replace them without question. I don't find it fair when Eibach can't come in here and explain and defend their product, get slammed when they are willing to produce another quality product for our car! I think its safe to say that no one on the forum will be making a set of front struts in their garage that I can buy in the near future? So give them a call....see if you aren't convinced that the product is good, tech support fantastic, and willingness to cater to our group refreshing. I won't even get into the whole cutting of the spring thing. It's an easy choice, a spring and strut engineered, designed for, and tested on a Marauder by the largest supplier of OEM suspension systems and parts to car manufacturers....OR.. guessing where to cut the stock springs and hoping its the right place, with no engineering at all. No brainer to me and several other customers. Let see if we are interested enough in getting the struts made!! Zack, Logan, send your springs back...please. Rest of you concerned, call Blaine..
Thanks,
Dave





Blaine
Tech Support
Eibach Springs, Inc.
909.256.8300 X-114
techsupport@Eibach.com

[CRUZTAKER]

I'll be at the Dynotune on April 3 in Wauconda. I believe Zack will be there, as well as Barry (Cruztaker). I'm hoping to catch a ride with each one to see how they handle with the different Springs installed.
Peter
I will absolutely pass the keys to you sir...

[RCSignals]

A couple of observations.

It has been stated that this discussion is "unfair" to Eibach because they can't post here. Eibach can post here, they choose not to.

Again "front struts" are mentioned. Again I ask, "What front struts?"
Our cars do not use a strut suspension system. What is missing here?

[jettle]

A couple of observations.

It has been stated that this discussion is "unfair" to Eibach because they can't post here. Eibach can post here, they choose not to.

Again "front struts" are mentioned. Again I ask, "What front struts?"
Our cars do not use a strut suspension system. What is missing here?

Whats the diff between a strut and shock?

They look more like what was called a strut on my Acura than what was referred to as shocks on my mustang.

[MI2QWK4U]

A couple of observations.

It has been stated that this discussion is "unfair" to Eibach because they can't post here. Eibach can post here, they choose not to.

Again "front struts" are mentioned. Again I ask, "What front struts?"
Our cars do not use a strut suspension system. What is missing here?

I agree on the choice to post is theirs, but non-the-less, they could explain better themselves than us trying to pass on info we gleen from them.

As for the front struts, directly from the Marauder brochure and their website... and I quote..."front suspension: Performance handling; independent short and long-arm (SLA), coil-over-shock springs with Tokico monotube double acting, gas-pressureized hydraulic shocks with 28 mm stabilizer bar"

Look in your sales brochure, in my 2003 edition it is pictured in the performance section pages, and the info is listed in specifications page in the very back of the brochure. This info is also mirrored at the mercuryvehicles.com website under the Marauder and performance section. This is what Eibach proposes developing for us if we have enough interest. These would be adjustable as well...very high quality.

Let me know if you have any other questions....
Dave

[jettle]

okay good to know they are shocks not struts.

I would still like to know the diff if someone knows...

[RCSignals]

As for the front struts, directly from the Marauder brochure and their website... and I quote..."front suspension: Performance handling; independent short and long-arm (SLA), coil-over-shock springs with Tokico monotube double acting, gas-pressureized hydraulic shocks with 28 mm stabilizer bar"

Look in your sales brochure, in my 2003 edition it is pictured in the performance section pages, and the info is listed in specifications page in the very back of the brochure. This info is also mirrored at the mercuryvehicles.com website under the Marauder and performance section. This is what Eibach proposes developing for us if we have enough interest. These would be adjustable as well...very high quality.

Let me know if you have any other questions....
Dave


Exactly, they are not "struts"

[MI2QWK4U]

Exactly, they are not "struts"


Gotcha RC, I understand what you meant now, sorry I misspoke, I am used to the Mustangs and the struts. Thanks for catching that.
Dave

[jettle]

Exactly, they are not "struts"

RC,

You caught the error so whats the diff?

I knew what everyone was referring to all along but I am just courious now what the diff is.

Thanks,
Jeff

[jettle]

Found it...

This is copied off the monroe website...

Q: What is the difference between shock absorbers and struts?
A. Struts and shocks are very similar in function, but very different in design. The job of both is to control excessive spring motion; however, struts are also a structural component of the suspension. Struts can take the place of two or three conventional suspension components and are often used as a pivot point for steering and to adjust the position of the wheels for alignment purposes.

[TripleTransAm]

Let me take a stab at it.

I believe a strut serves as a locating member of a suspension, unless this definition is solely reserved for the MacPherson strut and not generally applicable to all struts.

In the MM's case, the wheel is located by two A-arms, an upper arm and a lower arm. Each point of contact with the wheel is through a ball-joint... hence, we should have 2 ball joints per side. The spring generally acts between one of these arms and the front frame. The shock absorber does the same. Some variations of this setup are coil-over shock absorbers, where the spring acts between 2 pads attached to each end of the shock, or between one pad on the shock and the front frame. My WS6 uses this coil-over design... remove the shock absorber and the spring comes along with it. But it still has 2 A-arms locating the front wheel.

The MacPherson strut removes the top A-arm, to make more room in the engine bay. This leaves only the lower A-arm, with the rest of the locating done by the strut, which is essentially a really big beefy shock absorber. The spring usually is installed in a coil-over setup, between the top strut mount and some mounting pad on the strut itself. This is why a spring compressor is required to remove a strut.

Some cars use a Modified MacPherson strut. Same setup with the single A-arm, but the spring is located between the A-arm and the frame, leaving the strut to act solely as a combination shock absorber and suspension link. My GTA is set up this way, the only option they had to stuff a V8 in such a tight engine bay.

If anyone has a different perspective on 'strut' I'd be interested in knowing if there's a non MacPherson definition of a strut.

[ts-pa]

To possibly answer the difference question...

Traditional shocks only control up & down suspension travel while the upper & lower contol arms control steering movements. On the other hand, struts replace the upper control arm and have the shock absorber built internally, it may also contain the spring. Some reasons manufacters choose struts is space savings in the engine compartment and simplified assemblies.

I hope this helps.

[Logan]

I'll be first in line if Eibachs brings out a shock/spring combo tailored for our application.

[SergntMac]

Thanks for your eloquent diagram of the issues at hand, Dave. I appreciate your time in preparaton of your post. I also appreciate the contact info for Eibach.

[MI2QWK4U]

Thanks for your eloquent diagram of the issues at hand, Dave. I appreciate your time in preparaton of your post. I also appreciate the contact info for Eibach.

Are you serious this time, or am I being slammed?

[CRUZTAKER]

Are you serious this time, or am I being slammed?
I feel that Mac is serious...and I am slammed!:rock:

[merc406]

Didn't see any slammin on anyone......

[Logan]

Mac ain't like that... He was actually being sincere...

[Marauder]

Im certainly glad this change was worth it to you.
Are you happy with the height? Like I said before, I think we have the best of everything with 3/4 removed.
Anyone care to try 7/8??????

7/8??? I just cut 1 full coil off of my car going with KB doing 1 turn on non-S/C cars. :D

I just got my hands on a set of stock MM springs from a member who was super happy with his Eibachs.

[SergntMac]

I just cut 1 full coil off of my car going with KB doing 1 turn on non-S/C cars. I just got my hands on a set of stock MM springs from a member who was super happy with his Eibachs.
Cool...Watch your tire sizes now, 255/45/18 is the max with 1 coil cut. Happy motoring!

[Marauder]

Cool...Watch your tire sizes now, 255/45/18 is the max with 1 coil cut. Happy motoring!
Yup, I'm going to do 255/45-18 up front and 295/45-18 in the rear with widened rims. :D

Little by little I'm modding my baby. :D :D

[SergntMac]

Yup, I'm going to do 255/45-18 up front and 295/45-18 in the rear with widened rims. Little by little I'm modding my baby.
Good combination, you'll love the drive. I couldn't get my Pirellis in 295, so I went with 285/45 in the rear. I'm also down as far as I can go on the air suspension, and everything fits just fine, hugs the road like you won't believe. Zack's Watts link ought to tune things up real nice too.

[sailsmen]

CrownVic what brand tires are you running?

[Marauder]

CrownVic what brand tires are you running?
I'm still running the stock BFGs but will be going with Nitto 555's....the regular ones, not the drag radials.

[roadpig58]

ok sarge- here`s a dumb question- cut them from the top or bottom
or does it matter? thanks- roadpig

[cyclone03]

ok sarge- here`s a dumb question- cut them from the top or bottom
or does it matter? thanks- roadpig

Not Sarge,but cut the top.With the spring out it becomes very clear.

[roadpig58]

thanks for the info cyclone-- roadpig