The Fiscal Cliff -- 48 days and Counting

[Bluerauder]

This isn't a partisan issue. Its not about the Republicans or the Democrats. This is about the future of America.

I am sure that many of you have heard about the Fiscal Cliff. Maybe some even understand it from an economic point of view. Some may not.

If Congress doesn't act within the next 48 days (less when you take out the holiday recesses), the automatic measures created over the past 2 years will kick in on 1 January 2013. To date, the Congress has not had the stomach to really address the problem. They know that they face a difficult set of problems. This will be the economic version of the perfect storm "Hurricane Sandy" ... and we know the damage it did to New Jersey, New York and other surrounding states. This one has the potential to affect everyone for years.

Without some sort of action, the US economy will get hit with an $800 Billion bogey. The result will be a recession (negative growth in the economy), another 2 million unemployed as the rate moves to 9 or 10%. Automatic cuts in Defense spending of $65 Billion per year. More cuts in discretionary spending of another $65 Billion per year in every other branch of government. Tax increases on virtually everyone as rates expire and the 2% FICA discount reverts to previous rates and others. Everyone ...... everyone will have less to spend (average of $3,000-$4,000 less) so that will come out of the economy as well since spending will go down.

This is not a good time for this to happen and it will stall any possible recovery from our current recession for a couple more years.

How do you think Congress WILL deal with the Fiscal Cliff?

[Curless]

They don't care....their income is secured.

[PonyUP]

Here we go again, another political thread that can't possible end well.

Here's my two cents, the fiscal cliff is nowhere near as scary as being made out to be. First off, because Obama changed the tax cuts to a per paycheck, most will hardly notice.

Secondly, the American society as a whole is irresponsible, so they will continue to spend beyond their means like they have done since the 80s, so the impact on consumers will be minimal.

The budget cuts that automatically kick in are necessary cuts that congress has been scared to touch for fear of angering their lobbyist.

Do we risk a double dip recession? Yes that's a possibility, the military cuts alone will cost many jobs, corporations are already scared and are instituting hiring freezes, which is affecting the DOW, and NASDAQ.

That having been said, the cliff was bi partisan and put in place because both parties knew that they weren't agreeing on anything and this was too important to result in a stalemate.

In other words the cuts were put in place so that nobody wins, and that might be the best thing for the country.

Now lets see if this can be discussed ina bi partisan way not critiquing typos from the autocorrect on my phone, without Obama bashing, saying Democrats have ruined the country and calling for revolution.

In other words IBTL


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Mr. Man]

IBTL...:popcorn:

[Bigdogjim]

I fear the the American public has no clue what is at risk.

Very sad time for America.

[Spectragod]

I say do nothing, go over the cliff. Sit back and listen to all the one's who believed in hope, change and moving forward live the dream they were sold.

It is going to be one ugly ride, mostly for those that are buried in debt and may potentially lose their job on top of that.

Then lets take a look in the middle east and what happened today, let's see if America backs Israel , if not, December 22 may be the real deal.

There was just no way to not make this political, if the current POTUS chooses to maintain his stance of policy, this country will be a mess.

If someone wants to argue this, let's do it via PM, no need to trash the board.

[sailsmen]

Spec has it right.

With 50% of the population getting a check from the Fed Gov't and 33.33% on means tested Welfare, it is means tested Welfare that is the single biggest Budget expenditure, bigger than Defense, bigger than SS and bigger than Medicare there is no future for the Country.

Per the WSJ 75% of the money the Fed Gov't borrowed last year was printed by the Fed Reserve because no one would loan us the money. At current growth rates Fed Gov't spending will exceed the economy in 20 years.

Per the Medicare Trustees Medicare will be insolvent in 12 years.

Simply rolling back Fed Gov't spending to 2008 levels when we had a REpub Pres and a Demo Congress would solve the problem. Alternately cut existing spending 1% per year for each of the next 10 years may solve the problem. There is no political will for either.

We can't print our way out and we can't tax our way out. The only way out is ECONOMIC GROWTH.

[MMBLUE]

The only way out is ECONOMIC GROWTH.

AMEN to that :banana2:

[SC Cheesehead]

FWIW,

USA Future = Greece.

IBTL

[guspech750]

Let the good times roll. Bring on the fiscal cliff.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[Bigdogjim]

Just check the debt clock in my sig.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html (http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[sailsmen]

On a per capita basis the Fed National Debt is 30+% bigger than Greece and is bigger than Italy, Spain and Portugal. Collective known as the PIGS!

Guess that makes us Hogzilla!

[Pat]

My Marauder is not going OVER any Fiscal Cliff. Silverback may go DOWN a strip, or AROUND a track, or THROUGH a traffic lite but he's not going OVER any stinking cliff.

[GAMike]

We have to make forward progress regardless of who is President..... Avert the cliff and begin work on a permanent solution immediatley vs. waiting till the back is against the wall.......

This is no longer entirely about leadership at home...... The entire world is watching and taking notes... We need to once again be the beacon for the entire world to follow....... Both parties need to be responsible to that while doing considerably more than was done in these situation the past 4 years......

I agree 100% with Speaker Boehner... The President has to lead here... Not just in front of the TV Cameras, he has to lead with time and effort at the table........ He is our President like it or not. He and the Congress needs to be compelled to perform... Not to fail..... So lets get all the distracting rhetoric out of the way now and get D.C. to work..... Get timelines/deadlines/outlines for the plan done by end of January, and bring the final bipartisan draft to a vote by April 1.

That will truly show the American People he listened and he learned (as he claims he has)...

jmho...

[beantown mm]

2 things recently that tell a story... These are fringe family members.

1. two 40ish old kids living with their elderly mom for years and coddled by her and uncle sam while on dope etc... mom passes away, 3rd responsible working kid comes in, let the 2 stay in house, renovates the old house to be able to rent one half of it. Responsible kid says to the 2, I will give you your share of the rent we get, you guessed it,, OOHH NOO!!! YOU CAN'T GIVE US ANY MONEY, WE MIGHT NOT GET OUR GOV'T BENE'S AND FOOD STAMPS.........

2. Another 40plus kid literally never held a job living with elderly mom, irritated cousin says to the kid at the house, why don't you try getting a job for once in your life, mom breaks in, NO NO, he can't, I will lose my fuel assistance......


all 3 of these people healthy, able bodied people enabled by family, gov't and me and you....... multiply this by whatever and we got what we got............

[sailsmen]

GAMike - you are asking the people who spent their lfe creating the problem to solve it. What you don't understand is this is what they want.

Just study Davis, Bell, Ayers, Wright and Alinsky for all to become clear.

[GAMike]

To the contrary Billy... I get it, but know that railing against the estblishment has not done a damn thing. This country has to get moving very soon. I am a conservative but also a pragmatist concerned more about the greater good, than who gets the credit.


GAMike - you are asking the people who spent their life creating the problem to solve it. What you don't understand is this is what they want.

Just study Davis, Bell, Ayers, Wright and Alinsky for all to become clear.

[pem]

Winston Churchill was quoted as saying, "trying to spend yourself out of debt is like standing in a bucket and pulling on the handle to pick yourself up"

[Bigdogjim]

OK! Good stuff here and can someone tell me where I sign up for the "free" cellphone?

My phone took a crap and I need a new so where the line?

Thanks.

[sailsmen]

To the contrary Billy... I get it, but know that railing against the estblishment has not done a damn thing. This country has to get moving very soon. I am a conservative but also a pragmatist concerned more about the greater good, than who gets the credit.


This is what many of those in power want. They believe the system in the USA is fundamentally "unfair" by favoring certain groups at the expense of others. To make it "fair" their sole goal is Social Justice via income redistribution until financial collapse makes us all equal by restarting at zero.

They believe the only way "Forward" is to reset the system by collapsing it.

It is called "fundamental change" by going "Forward".

They have clearly stated this as their Goal over and over. Many choose not to hear it.:(

I can assure you their "greater good" is not your greater good nor that of most Americans.

[GAMike]

I guess you should run for office in LA then Billy because the change you seek will not happen unless someone steps out of the shadows.....I have to many skeletons in the closet. May as well make all that time researching pay off:beer:.
This is what many of those in power want. They believe the system in the USA is fundamentally "unfair" by favoring certain groups at the expense of others. To make it "fair" their sole goal is Social Justice via income redistribution until financial collapse makes us all equal by restarting at zero.

They believe the only way "Forward" is to reset the system by collapsing it.

It is called "fundamental change" by going "Forward".

They have clearly stated this as their Goal over and over. Many choose not to hear it.:(

I can assure you their "greater good" is not your greater good nor that of most Americans.

[Ozark Marauder]

So what exactly is this looming menace, and why is it so dangerous? Stripped of its rhetorically charged language the fiscal cliff is simply a legal trigger that will trim the deficit in 2013 by automatically implementing spending cuts and tax increases. In other words, the government will spend less, and more of what it does spend will be paid for with taxes rather than debt. Isn't this exactly what both parties, and the public, more or less want? The fiscal cliff means that the federal budget deficit will be immediately cut in half, shrinking to approximately $641 billion in 2013 from the approximately $1.1 trillion in 2012. What is so terrible about that? I would argue that there is a greater danger in avoiding the cliff than driving over it.

It is amazing that members of Congress can keep a straight face as they claim to want to address our long-term deficit problem while simultaneously working to avoid any substantive action. No doubt an agreement will be reached that will replace the looming fiscal cliff with another one farther down the road (which they can easily dismantle before we actually reach the precipice). Will the rating agencies buy this bill of goods a second time? If we lack the political courage to go over this fiscal cliff, why should anyone think we will be able to stomach going over the next one? Especially since each time we delay going over the cliff, we simply increase its future size, making it that much harder to actually go over it.

The truth is that regardless of what you call it, going over the fiscal cliff is not the problem, it is part of the solution. Our leaders should construct a cliff that is actually large enough to restore fiscal balance before a real disaster occurs. That disaster will take the form of a dollar and/or sovereign debt crisis that will make this fiscal cliff look like an ant hill.

IBTL

OZ

[Haggis]

I am planning for the worst and stocking up on supplies. Barbwire is strung, foxholes are dug with connecting trenches and sandbags are full and in place. Underground bunker should be finished by mid December and ready to move into when/if the ***** hits the fan.

[Bluerauder]

So what exactly is this looming menace, and why is it so dangerous? Stripped of its rhetorically charged language the fiscal cliff is simply a legal trigger that will trim the deficit in 2013 by automatically implementing spending cuts and tax increases. In other words, the government will spend less, and more of what it does spend will be paid for with taxes rather than debt. Isn't this exactly what both parties, and the public, more or less want?

In one sense, you are absolutely correct. Something has to be done to reduce spending, cut the deficit, and increase revenue. The automatic triggers will certainly do that. However, the triggers in place don't necessarily do that in the best way so as to minimize the impacts. What we don't need at this point is more unemployment and negative growth.

The so-called "Entitlements" are protected within the current trigger mechanisms. The right way to go about this is to look at raising revenue smartly and targeting wasteful and inefficient spending in Government rather than "across the board" 10-15% cuts only in the so-called Discretionary accounts.

If you take a salary hit at work, you don't reduce your spending equally across all of your obligations. Or you probably shouldn't do that. Food and housing/mortgage/rent should take the smallest hit. You can't cut gas, electric, and water much, if anything, at all -- unless you implement some in home conservation methods. Eating out at restaurants and entertainment could probably take a big cut. Maybe you REALLY don't need HD TV, 20 premium channels and NFL weekend ticket on cable. Maybe you could get a little more wear out of some clothes rather than getting the newest set of jeans, suit or sneakers.

I am just saying that there are things that the Government spends money on that could be cut with very little impact on "real" readiness and operations.

Nothing should be Off Limits including "Entitlements". Reform in Taxes and Entitlements are both needed to fix the problem permanently. Doing so will take at least another year or even 2. The "Safety Net" has turned into a "Gravy Train" for some and a "Way of Life" for others. It needs a hard look.

We can't keep spending like a drunken sailor (sorry guys) nor raising taxes until the system collapses under its own weight. Once we are ALL equal in poverty, ain't anybody gonna be happy 'cause the "Gravy Train" will have wrecked.

This can be a civil discussion. So no need to say IBTL.

[PonyUP]

In one sense, you are absolutely correct. Something has to be done to reduce spending, cut the deficit, and increase revenue. The automatic triggers will certainly do that. However, the triggers in place don't necessarily do that in the best way so as to minimize the impacts. What we don't need at this point is more unemployment and negative growth.

The so-called "Entitlements" are protected within the current trigger mechanisms. The right way to go about this is to look at raising revenue smartly and targeting wasteful and inefficient spending in Government rather than "across the board" 10-15% cuts only in the so-called Discretionary accounts.

If you take a salary hit at work, you don't reduce your spending equally across all of your obligations. Or you probably shouldn't do that. Food and housing/mortgage/rent should take the smallest hit. You can't cut gas, electric, and water much, if anything, at all -- unless you implement some in home conservation methods. Eating out at restaurants and entertainment could probably take a big cut. Maybe you REALLY don't need HD TV, 20 premium channels and NFL weekend ticket on cable. Maybe you could get a little more wear out of some clothes rather than getting the newest set of jeans, suit or sneakers.

I am just saying that there are things that the Government spends money on that could be cut with very little impact on "real" readiness and operations.

Nothing should be Off Limits including "Entitlements". Reform in Taxes and Entitlements are both needed to fix the problem permanently. Doing so will take at least another year or even 2. The "Safety Net" has turned into a "Gravy Train" for some and a "Way of Life" for others. It needs a hard look.

We can't keep spending like a drunken sailor (sorry guys) nor raising taxes until the system collapses under its own weight. Once we are ALL equal in poverty, ain't anybody gonna be happy 'cause the "Gravy Train" will have wrecked.

This can be a civil discussion. So no need to say IBTL.

I certainly agree there are smarter ways to manage the debt than going over the cliff.
History has shown though, at least recently, both parties refuse to work together. The perception that I have is both parties only want to cut what's important to their opposition so that they can protect their own interests.
With the amount of debt we are talking about the compromise should be

1) take up Boehner on his offer to close loop holes as a revenue stream
2) the President needs to show he can compromise to, instead of raising taxes on individuals making more than $250k, change it to $1 million
3) we were close on a social security fix a few years ago, raise the retirement age to at least secure it for an extended period of time, this worked before. People are living longer, working longer, and with Baby Boomers entering retirement, it needs to be addresses
4) the same process implemented in social security should be do e to Medicare as well
5) programs like the NEA should be eliminated
6) Farm subsidies should be look at to determine how much they are actually needed
7) closing loopholes in tax deduction should also be done with corporate taxes, however we should also lower their tax rate in an effort to get more business domestically and keep corporate profits here rather than see them go abroad
8) military budgets need to be cut. Following these two wars the need for boots on the ground in large numbers is diminished. We don't need to be stacked for another World War, our enemy now carries suitcases and vest bombs

Just my two cents


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Cheeseheadbob]

I would say your response is worth at least 10 cents! :D Well thought out and concise...:up:
I certainly agree there are smarter ways to manage the debt than going over the cliff.
History has shown though, at least recently, both parties refuse to work together. The perception that I have is both parties only want to cut what's important to their opposition so that they can protect their own interests.
With the amount of debt we are talking about the compromise should be

1) take up Boehner on his offer to close loop holes as a revenue stream
2) the President needs to show he can compromise to, instead of raising taxes on individuals making more than $250k, change it to $1 million
3) we were close on a social security fix a few years ago, raise the retirement age to at least secure it for an extended period of time, this worked before. People are living longer, working longer, and with Baby Boomers entering retirement, it needs to be addresses
4) the same process implemented in social security should be do e to Medicare as well
5) programs like the NEA should be eliminated
6) Farm subsidies should be look at to determine how much they are actually needed
7) closing loopholes in tax deduction should also be done with corporate taxes, however we should also lower their tax rate in an effort to get more business domestically and keep corporate profits here rather than see them go abroad
8) military budgets need to be cut. Following these two wars the need for boots on the ground in large numbers is diminished. We don't need to be stacked for another World War, our enemy now carries suitcases and vest bombs

Just my two cents


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Ozark Marauder]

The right way to go about this is to look at raising revenue smartly and targeting wasteful and inefficient spending in Government rather than "across the board" 10-15% cuts only in the so-called Discretionary accounts.

I am just saying that there are things that the Government spends money on that could be cut with very little impact on "real" readiness and operations.

Nothing should be Off Limits including "Entitlements". Reform in Taxes and Entitlements are both needed to fix the problem permanently. Doing so will take at least another year or even 2. The "Safety Net" has turned into a "Gravy Train" for some and a "Way of Life" for others. It needs a hard look.

.

If there is no pain, there is no gain. Across the board cuts are the only way to go. They can find 10 -15 % of as you say, "wasteful and inefficient spending" in each budget across the board. What exactly do you mean by "raising revenue smartly"?

If you recall, the cliff was created by a deal last year when Congress couldn't find ways to trim the deficit in exchange for raising the debt ceiling. When they failed to reach an agreement, Congress knew they had to raise the debt ceiling anyway. The resulting Budget Control Act of 2011, signed in August of that year, offered the pretense that they were dealing with our long-term fiscal crisis and not simply raising the debt ceiling with no strings attached. This was done not only to appease some House Republicans, who had threatened to vote against a debt ceiling increase, but to satisfy the bond rating agencies that had threatened a down-grade if Congress failed to act.

Now the focus turns to how Congress will dismantle the structure it created just 16 months ago. There can be little doubt that they will, as economists are assuring politicians that driving over the fiscal cliff will immediately bring on a recession. The expiration of the Bush era tax cuts for all taxpayers will cost Americans an estimated $423 billion in 2013 alone. Hundreds of billions of across the board spending cuts, including the military, have been delineated. No politician would allow that to happen.

Many currently believe last year's S&P downgrade resulted from the same congressional dysfunction that resulted in the fiscal cliff agreement. The truth is that the downgrade would probably have been much greater, and more rating agencies would have likely joined S&P in taking action, had it not been for the fiscal cliff agreement. If further downgrades fail to be issued when the lame duck Congress inevitably comes up with another can kicking deal, then the agencies themselves could lose any remaining credibility. In my opinion, the only explanation for inaction by the rating agencies would be for fear of regulatory retaliation by a vindictive U.S government.

I do not think it is a coincidence that while the banks are suffering a regulatory backlash as a result of their perceived culpability for the mortgage crisis, the credit rating agencies have been relatively untouched. But the credit agencies played a key role in catalyzing the mortgage crisis by giving questionable ratings to the mortgage backed securities.

My guess is the government simply does not want to open up that can of worms as similar mistakes are being made with respect to the agencies' ratings of government debt.

It does need "a hard look", but more. In my opinion, it is not by doing another can kick down the road because we all know who is at the end of that road....our children and grandchildren...we really can't wait a year or two.

OZ

[sailsmen]

An annual deficit in excess of 3% of GDP cannot be sustained. This is what the rating agencies look at.
The 60 year 1948-2008 annual average deficit was 1.7% of GDP. The average of the past 3 years is 9.9% of GDP.
The 60 year 1948-2008 annual average Federal spending as a % of GDP 19.9%. The average of the past 3 years is 24.7%.
The Fed Base Line Budget has increased 24% as a % of GDP in the past 3 years.
The State I live in after increasing it's Budget 69% in 9 years with no population growth has just increased the current Budget 1% and Healthcare by 7.6%. All we see in the news is how the LA Gov has cut Healthcare spoending when in fact it was increased by 7.6%!
A reduction in an increase is a CUT!

Gov't taking wealth and redistributing it destroys wealth. History has example after example of it.

[prchrman]

my company went through a horrific down turn and made needed adjustments, layed off 5% of the work force, cut the remaining people's salary 5%, reduced inventory since we were not selling anyway, asked for and got 10% reduction in all facilities budgets. they did give us an extra 2 weeks off during the 2 year period that this took place and they also gave us back the 5% and another 5% when we got on good financial footing. you see this is the kind of change you need to right the ship. in america as of now the revenue has decreased and is way down falling way short of spending in the good ole US of A. look at any chart you want on rev vs spend and you see when revenue went down we doubled down on spending which does not make for a good financially responsible budget. we need to make some decisions that will get us back on good financial footing but the dems will not cut entitlements because that is a voting block and pubs will not cut defense or raise taxes (obtw the US revenue was the highest ever in 2007 which was under the bush tax cuts). bush got us into wars and that really took a toll on national debt and then the bubble burst and that had a lot to do with dems pushing their everybody needs to own their own home crap. so you see they all got dirt on their hands and they all do not want to do what it takes because they would rather protect their position or their party than protect our american way of life. there are no more statesmen, only polictical hacks who are bent on hanging on to what they got. so you see one day we will fall back in our own poop and wonder why we stink. my great granddaddy had a saying for life, save 10%, give 10% to God and if you cann't live off the rest you need to change your lifestyle. america needs to change her lifestyle.

[Bluerauder]

If there is no pain, there is no gain. Across the board cuts are the only way to go. They can find 10 -15 % of as you say, "wasteful and inefficient spending" in each budget across the board. What exactly do you mean by "raising revenue smartly"?

Again, I'll agree with most of what you have said. However, I still think that "Entitlement" spending should NOT get a pass in this drill. Certainly there is AT LEAST that much waste, fraud and inefficiency in many of those programs. They should kick in their 10-15% too.

As to raising revenue smartly ... I mean closing loopholes and some tax shelters. They can even adjust the rates to an equitable level. Personally, I am not opposed to paying more taxes. What I AM opposed to is taking my money and pissing it away on programs that have very little oversight, are littered with fraud, have piss poor management, and which tacitly encourage irresponsibility and government dependency. When able-bodied and qualified people (as cited in the post above) prefer government feebies and can do better "On the Dole" than in the workforce, there is a big problem that only grows worse every year.

Can the military and other government agencies and departments find savings. Absolutely. However, the proposed impact to the US Army is another force structure cut of about 100K-120K from its currently level of about 550,000. That size of cut will put us about at the size of the US Army in 1939-1940. We all know how that turned out. There was another massive drawdown in forces at the end of World War II and we initially went into Korea untrained, untested and ill-equipped. Task Force Smith paid the price for that mistake. Other services US Navy, USMC, US Air Force and the Guard and Reserve will have similar cuts.

How much Defense is enough?? I'll let the SecDef, Chairman JCS and the service chiefs figure that one out. But I am not comfortable with 1940 force levels especially in today's volatile world. Brad/Pony-Up seems to think that the current threat is made up of a couple guys with IEDs or bomb vests or unorganized insurgents. Obviously, the days of the huge wars are over. :rolleyes: Haven't we been sucked down that path before? Read history. Take a look at the lessons learned -- or maybe not learned at all.

With the planned reductions, the USA will have the 6th largest army in the world. That means 5 others are larger and not all of them are friendly.

1. China 1.6 Million
2. India 1.1 Million
3. North Korea 950K
4. South Korea 560K
5. Pakistan 550K
6. USA 420K (now about 550K)
7. Vietnam 412K
8. Turkey 402K
9. Iraq 375K
10. Russia 325K
11. Syria 321K

[Mr. Man]

Charlie one thing that I think people overlook is that for every soldier the USA has you can probably double or triple that number when it comes to kill ratios, maybe more considering the technology weapons the US can deploy.

[Bluerauder]

Charlie one thing that I think people overlook is that for every soldier the USA has you can probably double or triple that number when it comes to kill ratios, maybe more considering the technology weapons the US can deploy.

That ^^^^ sounds like "bean counter" speak to me. I have more than 40 years experience in that business, so I don't overlook much. It doesn't work that way at the squad and platoon level. Yes, we want to maintain our overmatch capability. If a company can take out a battalion "under some circumstances", then that is in our favor. If the enemy is in prepared defenses, that 2-3 fold advantage is erased pretty quickly.

The technology gap between our enemies is decreasing everyday. The M1 tank is 30 years old. The M2/M3 Bradley is 25-30 years old. The UH-1 dates to the 1960s. Same for the OH-58. The UH-60 Blackhawk is about 25 years old. How old are the B-52, B-1, F-14, F-16, F-18. The USMC still has some M-60 tanks that date to the 1960s. The USA hasn't bought much new stuff in any significant quantities since the early 1990s (except maybe MRAPs and UAVs). We may still be the best equipped and manned force; but the advantage slips away every day that we don't invest in the future. Defense cuts under "Sequestration" won't help improve that situation.

[Mr. Man]

...but think about all those exterestrial weapons we are reverse engineering that your clearance level doesn't make you privy to. ;)

[kernie]

1. China 1.6 Million
2. India 1.1 Million
3. North Korea 950K
4. South Korea 560K
5. Pakistan 550K
6. USA 420K (now about 550K)
7. Vietnam 412K
8. Turkey 402K
9. Iraq 375K
10. Russia 325K
11. Syria 321K[/QUOTE]


Rank Country Spending ($ Bn.)[3] % of GDP World share (%) Spending ($ Bn. PPP)[4]
— World total 1,735 2.5 100 1562.3
1 United States 711.0 4.7 41 711
2 China 143.0 2.0 8.2 228
3 Russia 71.9 3.9 4.1 93.7
4 United Kingdom 62.7 2.6 3.6 57.5
5 France 62.5 2.3 3.6 50.1
6 Japan 59.3 1.0 3.4 44.7
7 Saudi Arabia 48.2 8.7 2.8 58.8
8 India 46.8 2.5 2.7 112
9 Germany 46.7 1.3 2.7 40.4
10 Brazil 35.4 1.5 2.0 33.8
11 Italy 34.5 1.6 2.0 28.5
12 South Korea 30.8 2.7 1.8 42.1
13 Australia 26.7 1.8 1.5 16.6
14 Canada 24.7 1.4 1.4 19.9
15 Turkey 17.9 2.3 1.0 25.2


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_ expenditures

[PonyUP]

That ^^^^ sounds like "bean counter" speak to me. I have more than 40 years experience in that business, so I don't overlook much. It doesn't work that way at the squad and platoon level. Yes, we want to maintain our overmatch capability. If a company can take out a battalion "under some circumstances", then that is in our favor. If the enemy is in prepared defenses, that 2-3 fold advantage is erased pretty quickly.

The technology gap between our enemies is decreasing everyday. The M1 tank is 30 years old. The M2/M3 Bradley is 25-30 years old. The UH-1 dates to the 1960s. Same for the OH-58. The UH-60 Blackhawk is about 25 years old. How old are the B-52, B-1, F-14, F-16, F-18. The USMC still has some M-60 tanks that date to the 1960s. The USA hasn't bought much new stuff in any significant quantities since the early 1990s (except maybe MRAPs and UAVs). We may still be the best equipped and manned force; but the advantage slips away every day that we don't invest in the future. Defense cuts under "Sequestration" won't help improve that situation.

What does get overlooked on Military spending, is planes. The government just completed the super hornet run, I mean I was at the end of the line with the last two being built, and they were already starting the F35 run. From an exec at Lockheed Martin

"The Air Force does not need or want these planes, but it got contracted, so we are building it"

We need to maintain a strong military, but we do have room for cuts including personnel.
Yes there are armies larger than ours, China by their size alone is understandable, but if we have a conflict with China, it will involve bombs
India is larger because of constant threat from Pakistan, again understandable. India is an ally, and invasion would trigger response from us
Except China would be forced to back Pakistan because of their treaties.

While I think personnel reduction could make sense, what really makes sense is closing some foreign bases.

But I just don't feel we are going to have as many boots on the ground because our enemies hide in the shadows. Do we see any country starting a conflict with us, or the US invading another country that wouldn't involve a search for terrorists.
Maybe the answer is not force depletion but change of assignment
Our borders, protecting us not from immigrants, but the flow of drugs, domestic militias, helping keep peace at home during disasters


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[SC Cheesehead]

1. China 1.6 Million
2. India 1.1 Million
3. North Korea 950K
4. South Korea 560K
5. Pakistan 550K
6. USA 420K (now about 550K)
7. Vietnam 412K
8. Turkey 402K
9. Iraq 375K
10. Russia 325K
11. Syria 321K


Rank Country Spending ($ Bn.)[3] % of GDP World share (%) Spending ($ Bn. PPP)[4]
— World total 1,735 2.5 100 1562.3
1 United States 711.0 4.7 41 711
2 China 143.0 2.0 8.2 228
3 Russia 71.9 3.9 4.1 93.7
4 United Kingdom 62.7 2.6 3.6 57.5
5 France 62.5 2.3 3.6 50.1
6 Japan 59.3 1.0 3.4 44.7
7 Saudi Arabia 48.2 8.7 2.8 58.8
8 India 46.8 2.5 2.7 112
9 Germany 46.7 1.3 2.7 40.4
10 Brazil 35.4 1.5 2.0 33.8
11 Italy 34.5 1.6 2.0 28.5
12 South Korea 30.8 2.7 1.8 42.1
13 Australia 26.7 1.8 1.5 16.6
14 Canada 24.7 1.4 1.4 19.9
15 Turkey 17.9 2.3 1.0 25.2


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_ expenditures[/QUOTE]


Good points.

While we still have military superiority I think we need to invade Canada....

Lebensraum.

;)

[PonyUP]

I do want to say, it is so refreshing to have a good debate with open minds on this site, where everyone's opinion is respected


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[kernie]

Good points.

While we still have military superiority I think we need to invade Canada....

Lebensraum.

;)[/QUOTE]


You just want a 2nd blue.

:D

[SC Cheesehead]

Good points.

While we still have military superiority I think we need to invade Canada....

Lebensraum.

;)


You just want a 2nd blue.

:D[/QUOTE]

To the victor go the spoils! :D

[Bluerauder]

... and they were already starting the F35 run. From an exec at Lockheed Martin. "The Air Force does not need or want these planes, but it got contracted, so we are building it"

The program is still in development and if they are building anything, it is prototypes for testing. The program has slipped to about 2018 for full rate production. There are some performance issues and cost issues. The cost of one F-35 in 2010 was about $112 Million per copy. That has increased and has everyone concerned.

The F-35 is NOT a US Air Force program. It is a DoD/Joint/Allied program funded principally by the US but with funding coming from other partner countries. Other countries interested in the F-35 include the UK, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, Turkey, Israel, and Japan. The F-35 is intended in 3 variants (F-35A Conventional, F-35B STOL, and F-35C Carrier based.) The intent is/was to replace service specific planes with a common airframe. Theoretically, this should reduce costs for development and procurement of service unique planes. Until they iron out the performance issues and get the software on track and the costs under control, it probably is not getting much support from the USAF, USMC, or Navy.

We need to maintain a strong military, but we do have room for cuts including personnel. I will agree with this. The question is how much? I personally think that 480,000 US Army active is the lower limit.500-520K would be better. That's still a pretty hefty chunk of cut and the equivalent of 2-3 Divisions (or 6-9 Brigades if you want to look at it that way. You lose the people, their equipment, their support, their housing, their maintenance, etc.

While I think personnel reduction could make sense, what really makes sense is closing some foreign bases.

This is being done constantly and has been on-going for 20 years. US Forces in Germany went from 199,000 in the late 80's to a force of under 40,000 now. All of those bases have been closed. Others have been scaled back. Not much in Korea anymore either. Iraq and Afghanistan will be gone by the end of next year. Stateside bases have been closed and consolidated under several rounds of BRAC. Army and Air Force installations are combining in several locations. Much of this savings has already been taken. Maybe only a trickle left. Cut a division in New York and close Fort Drum. Close a division in Hawaii and close Fort Shafter/Schoeffield Barracks.

But I just don't feel we are going to have as many boots on the ground because our enemies hide in the shadows. Believe it or not, this says that you need MORE not less boots on the ground. It takes manpower to search and destroy.

Do we see any country starting a conflict with us, or the US invading another country that wouldn't involve a search for terrorists. Have we ever? Was anybody surprised when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990?? Bosnia?? Vietnam?? Korea?? 9/11?? Iraq?? Afghanistan??

Maybe the answer is not force depletion but change of assignment
Our borders, protecting us not from immigrants, but the flow of drugs, domestic militias, helping keep peace at home during disasters. US forces are limited in the duties that it can perform domestically under the Posse Comitatus Act. They can't do police work unless martial law has been declared and the Act is suspended by Congress for the emergency.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

My comments in RED ^^^^

[PonyUP]

My comments in RED ^^^^

Thanks Charlie, great information on the F35
It was two prototypes being built, I had the privelage of a private tour because of a program we did with Lockheed Martin at one of my hotels.

The military is a tricky cut, and I am most definitely out of my element on it. Yes it would take an act of congress to do the things I'm talking about, and it is definitely outside the box thinking, but at least would keep our troops employed and their families secure. We have boarders that are easy to smuggle across due to their size.

But I will grant you it is a slippery slope.

We may not have the answers, but at least can talk about solutions and respect all ideas. Now if our government could only do the same 🍺


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[yjmud]

canada the 52cnd state

[Spectragod]

Charlie one thing that I think people overlook is that for every soldier the USA has you can probably double or triple that number when it comes to kill ratios, maybe more considering the technology weapons the US can deploy.


Really????? How did that work out for the Americans at the Consulate in Benghazi?

[Bigdogjim]

I feel the day's of a convental war are long gone. I doubt the need will arise for a "full scale" war anywhere in the World. Too many deterrants to that.

[kernie]

..............

[Bluerauder]

We may not have the answers, but at least can talk about solutions and respect all ideas. Now if our government could only do the same ��

Here, Here :toast: ... I am with you on that. The key to solving this will be compromise and a willingness to listen to the other guy's point of view. There is much truth in both sides.

Cuts can not just focus on Defense or other Discretionary budget agencies like Homeland Defense, Agriculture, Treasury, DOE, DOJ. Department of Education, DOT, etc. and all the other various government entities.

Entitlement spending MUST also be looked at.

Take a look at the qualification requirements for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) aka "Food Stamps" in the District of Columbia. You don't have to provide a picture ID to verify WHO YOU ARE. It is GOOD ENOUGH to bring a relative, friend or neighbor who can validate who you are and where you live. REALLY??? :rolleyes: Not much room for fraud and waste in that set-up is there? Nothing to prevent a person from registering multiple times under different names and even in different states under those rules. I have to show an ID to get into work. Why shouldn't these people be required to prove who they are to prevent fraud to get SNAP.

I am sure that there are similar "qualification" loop holes in TANF, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. If a ship had that many leaks, it would be on the bottom of the ocean.

My daughter teaches 3rd grade. She says that half of the kids at the school are on the Free and Reduced Lunch program. This school serves an area with $500-600K homes. Townhouses are $250-300K easily. Median incomes are near $90K. How in hell can anybody qualify to pay a mortgage on a half million dollar home and still be eligible for free lunches at school? It just doesn't add up in my opinion.

[PonyUP]

Here, Here ... I am with you on that. The key to solving this will be compromise and a willingness to listen to the other guy's point of view. There is much truth in both sides.

Cuts can not just focus on Defense or other Discretionary budget agencies like Homeland Defense, Agriculture, Treasury, DOE, DOJ. Department of Education, DOT, etc. and all the other various government entities.

Entitlement spending MUST also be looked at.

Take a look at the qualification requirements for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) aka "Food Stamps" in the District of Columbia. You don't have to provide a picture ID to verify WHO YOU ARE. It is GOOD ENOUGH to bring a relative, friend or neighbor who can validate who you are and where you live. REALLY??? :rolleyes: Not much room for fraud and waste in that set-up is there? Nothing to prevent a person from registering multiple times under different names and even in different states under those rules. I have to show an ID to get into work. Why shouldn't these people be required to prove who they are to prevent fraud to get SNAP.

I am sure that there are similar "qualification" loop holes in TANF, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. If a ship had that many leaks, it would be on the bottom of the ocean.

My daughter teaches 3rd grade. She says that half of the kids at the school are on the Free and Reduced Lunch program. This school serves an area with $500-600K homes. Townhouses are $250-300K easily. Median incomes are near $90K. How in hell can anybody qualify to pay a mortgage on a half million dollar home and still be eligible for free lunches at school? It just doesn't add up in my opinion.

I'm with you on that Charlie. Welfare and food stamps are good ideas in principal, but seem to lack the regulation that is so pertinent in other programs.

I support the need for food stamps for a person or family down on there luck. But photo Id's should be required and proof that you have actively been looking for a job, as well as random drug testing. I'll bet that could save billions alone.

Loopholes seem to rule, and there is zero regulation to it.

There are times we are 50 states and times we are one nation.

I'd like to see the government try and crack down on the freeloaders like they try do with the 1%, oil companies, banks and credit cards.

There are definite times we need regulation and welfare is one of them


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Joe Walsh]

Everyone can argue as much as they like....we are ALL already royally F'd!

I always thought that if we cut government spending and eliminated some of the many, overlapping, government agencies that we could balance the budget....WRONG!!

Has anyone seen this little eye opening video???

EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I've been reading this thread all day today...have tried several times to post my thoughts/opinions in some sort of rational expression, but can't seem to get them together. Here are some of them...

--In America, it's more important to make/have/do something right NOW vs right....instant gratification; most are not willing to put time/effort into something for the long haul, and in today's society, 'long haul' is defined as more than a couple years.

--"Freebies"...too many getting them, not enough manpower to track who's getting what. Also, people complain that the 'freebie' they got isn't as good as what others have to pay for.

--Spending...we have a government that is spending beyond it's means...any surprise its citizens are doing the same?

--Politics...95% crooked. New faces, same behaviors.

--Us vs them mentality...I personally don't give a ***** who's to blame...we have serious problems and need to put our fingers in our pockets and fix it! After it gets fixed, then we can have a finger-pointing party.

--Accountability/Integrity...do these even exist any more?

--Most workers expect bonuses/raises/etc just for doing their job; you want a pat on the back because you weren't late, didn't leave early, took a regular lunch hour, and accomplished the tasks your boss asked you to do...every day...really?

I dunno...I'm just overwhelmed trying to voice my opinion on this matter. I'll admit that I've had my head in the sand, but not because I want to...I feel I have no other choice....

[Joe Walsh]

I've been reading this thread all day today...have tried several times to post my thoughts/opinions in some sort of rational expression, but can't seem to get them together. Here are some of them...

--In America, it's more important to make/have/do something right NOW vs right....instant gratification; most are not willing to put time/effort into something for the long haul, and in today's society, 'long haul' is defined as more than a couple years.

--"Freebies"...too many getting them, not enough manpower to track who's getting what. Also, people complain that the 'freebie' they got isn't as good as what others have to pay for.

--Spending...we have a government that is spending beyond it's means...any surprise its citizens are doing the same?

--Politics...95% crooked. New faces, same behaviors.

--Us vs them mentality...I personally don't give a ***** who's to blame...
we have serious problems and need to put our fingers in our pockets and fix it! After it gets fixed, then we can have a finger-pointing party.
--Accountability/Integrity...do these even exist any more?

--Most workers expect bonuses/raises/etc just for doing their job; you want a pat on the back because you weren't late, didn't leave early, took a regular lunch hour, and accomplished the tasks your boss asked you to do...every day...really?

I dunno...I'm just overwhelmed trying to voice my opinion on this matter. I'll admit that I've had my head in the sand, but not because I want to...I feel I have no other choice....

Agreed....
Except that the politicians already have their fingers in our pockets!
And I'm not offering up ONE EXTRA FRIGGIN' CENT until they quit wasting money and come up with a REAL plan to fix this mess!......:mad2:

[GAMike]

You guys are all smarter than me. All I know is, during this process if we don't:
1. Adjust the tax code to remove loopholes and include more of the population on the tax paying roles...

2. Develop a pro business tax structure that brings business back stateside vs. offshore...

3. Reduce the scope of what the Federal Govt. exists for... Establish priorities based on that new mission and identify, then remove the buying of votes with taxpayer dollars for all programs outsite that scope..

4. Programs that assist taxpayers need to be higher than programs that benefit deadbeats.....


We are as Joe so eloquently put it...... "F'd"....... I do know this.... That press conference yesterday was a joke... If that is how Obama intends to lead this country for the next 4 years.... Wow.......:confused:

[Gordy]

............................

[Haggis]

We are as Joe so eloquently put it...... "F'd"....... I do know this.... That press conference yesterday was a joke... If that is how Obama intends to lead this country for the next 4 years.... Wow.......:confused:

Like I have stated, I am planning on going off the grid as much as possible. Friend and family if you want to join me you are more then welcomed.

[sailsmen]

As respects the Federal Income Tax Code if as they say they truly only want to tax the "Rich" with out killing jobs they would keep the current income tax rates for income from an entity to an owner that is taxed as an individual. Simply put a business owner who is taxed as an individual would keep the current income tax rates.
This would allow small business, where 80% of job growth is, to keep the current income tax rates and encourage the forming of small businesses.
There is talk of having capital gains and dividends taxed the same as income tax rates. If you want less of something tax it.
If you started a business and sold it 2 years latter for $100,000 you would pay a 15% capital gain and net $85,000.
Taxing the sale of the business as income tax rates at the current top marginal rate for $100,000 and net $65,000 or 24% less.
Small Businesses across the Nation would be devalued over nite resulting in loans being called, lines of credit yanked and/or reduced.

[sailsmen]

Agreed....
Except that the politicians already have their fingers in our pockets!
And I'm not offering up ONE EXTRA FRIGGIN' CENT until they quit wasting money and come up with a REAL plan to fix this mess!......:mad2:

Why haven't all the GAO's recs from 2011 and again in Feb 2012 to save billions and billions in duplication been implemented????

Could it be it has nothing to do with the Gov't providing services and/or benefits? Could it be it is solely about income redistribution by Gov't taking money and spending it?????

[PonyUP]

As respects the Federal Income Tax Code if as they say they truly only want to tax the "Rich" with out killing jobs they would keep the current income tax rates for income from an entity to an owner that is taxed as an individual. Simply put a business owner who is taxed as an individual would keep the current income tax rates.
This would allow small business, where 80% of job growth is, to keep the current income tax rates and encourage the forming of small businesses.
There is talk of having capital gains and dividends taxed the same as income tax rates. If you want less of something tax it.
If you started a business and sold it 2 years latter for $100,000 you would pay a 15% capital gain and net $85,000.
Taxing the sale of the business as income tax rates at the current top marginal rate for $100,000 and net $65,000 or 24% less.
Small Businesses across the Nation would be devalued over nite resulting in loans being called, lines of credit yanked and/or reduced.

Recent history shows raising taxes actually help. The first decade of the new century under tax cuts, was already on pace for struggling growth. By 2007 the economy was already on pace for its slowest decade of growth since World War II. Then the collapse happened and erased the less than mediocre gains.
Reagan raised taxes, as did Bush Senior and Clinton, but most of the taxes have been cut over the last 12 years.
In my opinion, tax cuts have not necessarily helped. Raising taxes, closing loopholes could be the medicine we are looking for. It tastes terrible going down, but is for our overall health


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[yjmud]

"In my opinion, tax cuts have not necessarily helped. Raising taxes, closing loopholes could be the medicine we are looking for. It tastes terrible going down, but is for our overall health"
+ cut spending

[SC Cheesehead]

"In my opinion, tax cuts have not necessarily helped. Raising taxes, closing loopholes could be the medicine we are looking for. It tastes terrible going down, but is for our overall health"
+ cut spending

BIG cuts.

In ALL areas!

[GAMike]

Got a plan as well... Hope I will never need it.....
Like I have stated, I am planning on going off the grid as much as possible. Friend and family if you want to join me you are more then welcomed.

Companies are so global and flexible now that they don't fight city hall the way they used to for concessions & tax breaks (especially if they perceive they are not being listened too).... They just pack up and move/continue to make investments in countries with favorable economic conditions presently and into the forcastable future......

This is the problem Obama has, as we know...... I have not seen anything that leads me to beleive he has a plan that is encouraging to small business or the conglomerates holding billions offshore/investing in their other bases of operations. The more time goes by, the less they need to invest in America. They are being in their minds forced to adapt to the global landscape and they are... So far from Obama.... No plan... No leadership.. Just the same ole tough guy rhetoric.. It has to come from his administration 1st..... Lets hope in these next couple weeks he backs away from this approach... It does not work.


Recent history shows raising taxes actually help. The first decade of the new century under tax cuts, was already on pace. By 2007 the economy was already on pace for its slowest decade of growth since World War II. Then the collapse happened and erased the less than mediocre gains.
Reagan raised taxes, as did Bush Senior and Clinton, but most of the taxes have been cut over the last 12 years.
In my opinion, tax cuts have not necessarily helped. Raising taxes, closing loopholes could be the medicine we are looking for. It tastes terrible going down, but is for our overall health


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[rayjay]

By any name you want to call it, its still a disaster. God help us. :shake:

[sailsmen]

The Greatest Revenue to the Treasury occurred under the current Tax Rates. At current Growth Rates Fed Spending will exceed GDP in ~20 years. What that means is you cannot tax your way out of it unless you want to become North Korea.
Measurement 60 Year Post WW II Annual Average 1993/2000 2001/08 2009/11
Annual Average Unemployment 5.60% 5.21% 5.26% 9.30%
Annual Average Annual Deficit as a Percent of our Economy -1.70% -0.08% -2.00% -9.90%
Annual Average Public Debt as a Percent of our Economy 40.80% 44.90% 36.10% 62.60%
Annual Average Annual Tax Collections N/A $1.55 Trillion $2.14 Trillion $2.15 Trillion
Annual Average Spending as a Percent of our economy 19.90% 19.80% 19.60% 24.70%

From 1948 to 2008 when ever Fed spending exceeded 19.9% of GDP for 2 or more years UNEMPLOYMENT went up by a min of 50% and stayed there until Fed spending dropped back down to 19.9% of GDP. This occurred regardless of wether GDP grew or shrank. The Budgets that have been proposed have all been 22.5+% of GDP keeping UNEMPLOYMENT at the current high levels.

[Ozark Marauder]

As respects the Federal Income Tax Code if as they say they truly only want to tax the "Rich" with out killing jobs they would keep the current income tax rates for income from an entity to an owner that is taxed as an individual. Simply put a business owner who is taxed as an individual would keep the current income tax rates.
This would allow small business, where 80% of job growth is, to keep the current income tax rates and encourage the forming of small businesses.
There is talk of having capital gains and dividends taxed the same as income tax rates. If you want less of something tax it.
If you started a business and sold it 2 years latter for $100,000 you would pay a 15% capital gain and net $85,000.
Taxing the sale of the business as income tax rates at the current top marginal rate for $100,000 and net $65,000 or 24% less.
Small Businesses across the Nation would be devalued over nite resulting in loans being called, lines of credit yanked and/or reduced.


Recent history shows raising taxes actually help. The first decade of the new century under tax cuts, was already on pace. By 2007 the economy was already on pace for its slowest decade of growth since World War II. Then the collapse happened and erased the less than mediocre gains.
Reagan raised taxes, as did Bush Senior and Clinton, but most of the taxes have been cut over the last 12 years.
In my opinion, tax cuts have not necessarily helped. Raising taxes, closing loopholes could be the medicine we are looking for. It tastes terrible going down, but is for our overall health


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

I used to do my own taxes up to four years ago. It took me a week of evenings to accomplish, IRS booklets strewn all over the kitchen table, attachments, schedules, adding machine tapes, etc, etc, etc. I even tried to run Turbo Tax on my computer, one year, but noticed that it didn't include tax reducing, obscure deductions, still in this behemoth tax code. Now I pay an Enrolled Agent to fulfill all this madness.

The sheer bulk of the tax code -- its complexity, in numbers of rules, words or exceptions, could be trimmed without much political pain to our beloved representatives. Maybe a new method? A method designed to be mostly politically neutral. It does not aim at some utopian fantasy (like the Flat Taxers rave about.) It gores only a few sacred cows. It would be cheap and easy to implement. Only accountants, read..my Enrolled Agent, should hate it for the effects on his lucrative business.

There is nothing on Earth like the U.S. tax code, an extremely complex system that no one understands well. But unique in that, it's complexity is perfectly replicated by a MATHEMATICAL MODEL of the system. Because the mathematical model IS the system.

You could put the entire US tax code into a spare computer somewhere, in government (I'm sure they have a couple laying around) or privately. Try different inputs and tweak every parameter to see how outputs change. There are agencies who already do this, daily, in response to congressional queries. Alterations of the model could be tested under a wide range of sample taxpayers in all the different tax brackets. If you are thorough, the results of the model will be the results of the system.

It should be easy enough to create a program that will take the tax code and experiment with zeroing-out dozens, hundreds of provisions while sliding others upward and then showing, on a spreadsheet, how these simplifications would affect the one hundred representative types of taxpayers. I know this would face a firestorm from powerful interests fighting like hell to keep from losing millions.

Let the program seek and find the simplest version of a tax code that leaves all 100 taxpayers largely unhurt. If one group loses a favorite tax dodge, the system would seek a re-balancing of others to compensate. A computer could do it in a snap.

If the computer finds a new, much simpler tax structure that leaves none of the 100 taxpayers more than 5% worse off than they currently are, then who is going to scream?

Cheaters will holler of course, and those who benefit from the cloud of obscurity allowed by an overly complex tax code. Even if farmers are guaranteed adjustments in other areas, they will protest over the end of Roosevelt-era subsidies. In fact, everybody will complain.

But..a lot of the HEAT will be taken out of their complaints, if they see that their own bottom line is only changed by 5%, or even unchanged. And that is the secret....it's all in the math. To remove enough Heat, so that people can calmly re-assess, negotiate, and accept pragmatic simplification that's good for all.

I hate taxes, but would be willing to pay 5% more, wouldn't you for the sake of simplification.


OZ

[fastblackmerc]

10% flat tax. No deductions, no loopholes.

Everyone.... including corporations & politicians.

[SC Cheesehead]

10% flat tax. No deductions, no loopholes.

Everyone.... including corporations & politicians.

WERD!!!! :up:

[Haggis]

10% flat tax. No deductions, no loopholes.

Everyone.... including corporations & politicians.

Never get it to pass, too simple.

[SC Cheesehead]

Never get it to pass, too simple.

Good point, would raise the unemployment rate.

For IRS employees.... ;)

[1 Bad Merc]

I still think we need to put a small tariff on all the goods that are imported into the USA. Let these major corps. finance our way out of this mess! Why not just add .25 to every product coming into the USA. This way the tax does not discriminate, get's these multi-national corps to pay their share and only hits the people that are buying them. It's fair to everyone and it would drag us out of this hole. If you dont want to pay the quarter then dont buy it! What's an extra quarter if you are going to buy a TV? It would also help our farmers as domestic products would not be taxed and the food prices would stay the same!

We should not worry about economic sanctions because I dont think we export enough stuff to really be worried about it.

Did anyone ever notice why Toyota and other foreign car companies built plants in the US? Because they had tariffs on the importation of cars!

To solve the Post Office crisis why dont we let them raise the cost of stamps to .50 a stamp. That's still really cheap for the survice we get. Heck, I would be willing to pay .60 to send that Christmas card out :) This would help out the Post Office tremondously and save a great american icon.

[Haggis]

I still think we need to put a small tariff on all the goods that are imported into the USA. Let these major corps. finance our way out of this mess! Why not just add .25 to every product coming into the USA. This way the tax does not discriminate, get's these multi-national corps to pay their share and only hits the people that are buying them. It's fair to everyone and it would drag us out of this hole. If you dont want to pay the quarter then dont buy it! What's an extra quarter if you are going to buy a TV? It would also help our farmers as domestic products would not be taxed and the food prices would stay the same!

We should not worry about economic sanctions because I dont think we export enough stuff to really be worried about it.

Did anyone ever notice why Toyota and other foreign car companies built plants in the US? Because they had tariffs on the importation of cars!

To solve the Post Office crisis why dont we let them raise the cost of stamps to .50 a stamp. That's still really cheap for the survice we get. Heck, I would be willing to pay .60 to send that Christmas card out :) This would help out the Post Office tremondously and save a great american icon.
Better yet, stop all foreign aid. I cannot see us giving billions to other countries while we run up the debit.

All Federal Politicians take a 50% pay cut and they pay their fair share of taxes; most of them are millionaires.

[PonyUP]

Better yet, stop all foreign aid. I cannot see us giving billions to other countries while we run up the debit.

All Federal Politicians take a 50% pay cut and they pay their fair share of taxes; most of them are millionaires.

That's an initiative I could get behind


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[SC Cheesehead]

That's an initiative I could get behind


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

+1! :up:
-------

[1 Bad Merc]

Better yet, stop all foreign aid. I cannot see us giving billions to other countries while we run up the debit.

All Federal Politicians take a 50% pay cut and they pay their fair share of taxes; most of them are millionaires.

If we did that then how would these other countries finance their wars and genocides? Man....these foreign countries would just stop running!

[sailsmen]

Raise Income Tax and raise unemployment.

Cutting Federal spending and keeping the current Income Tax rates resulting in the 5.2% average unemployment rates of 1993-2008 is far better than keeping 33.33% of the population on means tested Welfare.

Year GDP Growth 8 Year Average
1992 6242
1993 6587 6.00
1994 6977 6.00
1995 7341 5.00
1996 7718 5.00
1997 8212 6.00
1998 8663 5.00
1999 9208 6.00
2000 9821 7.00 5.75
2001 10225 4.00
2002 10544 3.00
2003 10980 4.00
2004 11676 6.00
2005 12429 6.00
2006 13207 6.00
2007 13861 5.00
2008 14334 3.00 4.63
2009 13938 0.97
2010 14360 3.00
2011 14959 4.00

[Cheeseheadbob]

That is what my candidate for President has been saying for years!!! Of course both sides of the aisle did their best to keep him out of the debates and off the radar...:mad2:





10% flat tax. No deductions, no loopholes.

Everyone.... including corporations & politicians.

[fastblackmerc]

In addition to the 10% flat tax I'd like to see an end to ALL foreign aid!

Once we get our house in order, ie. not one American goes hunger, not one American doesn't have health care, not one American doesn't have a job, not one American doesn't have the opportunity for education......

Then we dole out foreign aid depending on who is "with" us.... if your not with us you get scratch.......

BTW.... when there is a disaster anywhere in the world Americans are the first to help........ what foreign countries are helping the victims of Sandy?

[Dr Caleb]

........ what foreign countries are helping the victims of Sandy?

We are. You know, the country you like to threaten to invade? The one that is always there to back you up by going in first, but you forget about when it's convenient?

Whenever a storm approaches your coast, we warm up the aid. We were the first on scene after Katrina (even before your own governemnt). We were the first onscene in Hati. And when Sandy was predicted to hit, we sent hundreds of power line crews to the east coast, even before the storm arrived.

We always offer to do more, and the US Governent politely thanks us and declines the offer of aid.

[MM03MOK]

We are. You know, the country you like to threaten to invade? The one that is always there to back you up by going in first, but you forget about when it's convenient?

Whenever a storm approaches your coast, we warm up the aid. We were the first on scene after Katrina (even before your own governemnt). We were the first onscene in Hati. And when Sandy was predicted to hit, we sent hundreds of power line crews to the east coast, even before the storm arrived.

We always offer to do more, and the US Governent politely thanks us and declines the offer of aid.
:canada: :canada: THANK YOU!!! :canada: :canada:

[sailsmen]

............... We were the first on scene after katrina (even before your own governemnt).... .

Blatant Lie!

[Dr Caleb]

Blatant Lie!

Do I always have to do your homework for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_response_to_Hurricane _Katrina

[Dr Caleb]

Do I always have to do your homework for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_response_to_Hurricane _Katrina

Our ships actually sailed through the remnants of Katrina to get there.

[sailsmen]

I lived through it. It was my "home" that got hit. I am the "home work".
Private Citizens, local Police-Fire-EMT and LA State National Guard were posted, (on 8-27-05), before Katrina hit and responded first.
After Katrina hit, ( 8-29-05 levees broke), the USCG, LA State Wild Life and Fish, LA State Police, LA Police-Fire-EMT and additional LA State National Guard responded second.
All State emergency response plans are based on local and State as the first responders.
Federal troops were deployed to staging areas near New Orleans on 8-26-05

I am not going to be silent while you post a BLATANT LIE that disparages the truly heroic acts of family, friends and thousands upon thousands of others as though it never happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Originally Posted by dr caleb View Post
............... We were the first on scene after katrina (even before your own governemnt).... .

BLATANT LIE

[sailsmen]

Per USCG - "In the first nine hours after Katrina came
ashore, Air Station New Orleans helicopters rescued 137 people."
"8-31-05 1,259 rescued from roof tops".
http://www.uscg.mil/history/katrina/katrinaindex.asp

From the source you site - "...the deployment of a Vancouver heavy urban search and rescue team, which arrived in Lafayette, Louisiana on the evening of August 31, 2005, arriving on a WestJet Airlines aircraft. Due to security and logistics issues in the disaster area surrounding New Orleans, the team started operations on September 3, saving 30 people that day. They returned to Vancouver on September 6, reportedly saving over 110 people during their deployment."

Lafayette is 150 miles from New Orleans and was unaffected by Katrina. By the time your advance team arrived in Lafayette the USCG had already rescued 1,259 from roof tops. A private individual in a helicopter rescued my sister, a hospital worker, from the roof of a hospital at great risk to himself.

[Dr Caleb]

I am not going to be silent while you post a BLATANT LIE that disparages the truly heroic acts of family, friends and thousands upon thousands of others as though it never happened.


When did I post anything of the sort?

I posted Canadian troops were there September 2nd, and by FEMAs own timeline, they weren't there till the 4th.

What you choose to read into it beyond that is not my responsibility.

[SC Cheesehead]

Original Thread Topic: How will Congress deal with the Fiscal Cliff (1 January 2013)??

Latest post to the thread:

When did I post anything of the sort?

I posted Canadian troops were there [in response to Hurrincane Katrina] September 2nd, and by FEMAs own timeline, they weren't there till the 4th.

What you choose to read into it beyond that is not my responsibility.

Looks like our bretheren from the GWN have done it again:

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/280x289px-LL-76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpe g (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=04fea777994d26cd84e01a5e54 f4c01d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Ft%2F607976%2Fthe-hopelessly-derailed-odac-objective-dac-anticipation-discussion-thread&v=1&libid=1353445154526&out=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F7%2F76%2F76d31508_c85 1d40e_Derail_1.jpeg&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co m%2Fimgres%3Fimgurl%3Dhttp%3A% 2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F7%2F76%2F76d31508_c85 1d40e_Derail_1.jpeg%26imgrefur l%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Ft%2F607976%2Fthe-hopelessly-derailed-odac-objective-dac-anticipation-discussion-thread%26usg%3D__mgZ6Q3n4NchC6 vZRRi9ROONzBog%3D%26h%3D289%26 w%3D280%26sz%3D36%26hl%3Den%26 start%3D1%26zoom%3D1%26tbnid%3 D2wAEHeQBEA0qEM%3A%26tbnh%3D11 5%26tbnw%3D111%26ei%3DDO-rUJL_FKSayQHV-4CwAw%26prev%3D%2Fsearch%253Fq %253Dthread%252Bderailed%2526h l%253Den%2526safe%253Dactive%2 526gbv%253D2%2526tbm%253Disch% 26itbs%3D1&title=The%20Hopelessly%20Derai led%20ODAC%2FObjective%20DAC%2 0Anticipation%2FDiscussion%20T hread&txt=&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_135344512584 12)


IBTL...:shake:

[sailsmen]

When did I post anything of the sort?

I posted Canadian troops were there September 2nd, and by FEMAs own timeline, they weren't there till the 4th.

What you choose to read into it beyond that is not my responsibility.

BULL CRAP! That is not what you posted!
8-26-05 "Following the declaration of a state of emergency, federal troops were deployed to Louisiana to coordinate the planning of operations with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).[2] 922 Army National Guard and 8 Air National Guard are deployed." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Originally Posted by dr caleb View Post
............... We were the first on scene after katrina (even before your own governemnt).... .

[sailsmen]

You can post all you want about how GREAT Canada is but I am not going to be silent while you post LIES that disparage and minimize the heroic acts of thousands of our private citizens and our GOVERNMENT RESPONDERS.
Your post is insulting and belittles all those who sacrificed to rescue others as though none of it happened and Canada WAS FIRST TO RESPOND, LEADING THE WAY while all others were non-existant.

[PonyUP]

Well thread lasted much longer with a civil tone than expected, but once again we travel for their down the downward spiral.
Do we really need to bash on Canada, can we not respect that they love their country as much as we love ours

Respect gentlemen, it should be given as well as its received


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Bluerauder]

Originally Posted by dr caleb View Post
............... We were the first on scene after katrina (even before your own governemnt).... .

The point is that Canada sent help. FEMA had their thumbs up their azz from the beginning. Mayor Nagin was useless throughout. Makes no difference who was there firstest with the mostest.

BTW -- Looks like Congress is leaning toward Option #5 Buy some Time but throw in some revenue increases (read taxes) and some budget cuts (read Defense). About 21% picked this probable course of action. Of course, there is always a chance that they will not do anything afterall.

[PonyUP]

The point is that Canada sent help. FEMA had their thumbs up their azz from the beginning. Mayor Nagin was useless throughout. Makes no difference who was there firstest with the mostest.

BTW -- Looks like Congress is leaning toward Option #5 Buy some Time but throw in some revenue increases (read taxes) and some budget cuts (read Defense)

It does look like number 5 will be the option. Which is only delaying the inevitable. At some point I think the Bush tax cuts will have to be rolled back.

I believe that even congress said at the time of passing the cuts, they aren't sustainable past the set timeline which is why the timeline was put in place.

But there is so much more to be negotiated, but I fear the stalemate will continue.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[sailsmen]

No - his point is no one did anything so Canada rescued first and lead the way. Very insulting and disparaging
FEMA being the Federal Gov't will always be what it is, the 900lb Gorilla with it's thumb up its azz.
That is why in part every emergency plan has the State and Local Gov't First Responders as the First Responders.
As respects DC Gov't only cares about Gov't. There will be no reductions in current spending and there will continue to be tax increases and spending increases until complete collapse.
The Takers have out voted the Payers.
The sooner the better for all.

[kernie]

I don't suppose anyone wants to hear about big increases in voluntary taxes{sin taxes} or the America first fund?

[SC Cheesehead]

I don't suppose anyone wants to hear about big increases in voluntary taxes{sin taxes} or the America first fund?

You guys gonna start paying extra taxes for them boxes of Budweiser that get swilled down north of the border?

;) ---------> :beer:



post count +1, IBTL...

[kernie]

[QUOTE=SC Cheesehead;1237495]You guys gonna start paying extra taxes for them boxes of Budweiser that get swilled down north of the border?

;) ---------> :beer:

Ha! They re-named our entertainment center\hockey rink the Budweiser gardens, it was the John Labatt center, Labatt's was born in London. It ruffled a few feathers around here, 'what's an American brewery's name doing on our hockey rink!' Lol.

:beer:

[PonyUP]

[QUOTE=SC Cheesehead;1237495]You guys gonna start paying extra taxes for them boxes of Budweiser that get swilled down north of the border?

;) ---------> :beer:

Ha! They re-named our entertainment center\hockey rink the Budweiser gardens, it was the John Labatt center, Labatt's was born in London. It ruffled a few feathers around here, 'what's an American brewery's name doing on our hockey rink!' Lol.

:beer:

What is Hockey? No season as of yet, this will cripple them to the point of going back to being televised on the outdoor life network again


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[kernie]

[QUOTE=kernie;1237503]

What is Hockey? No season as of yet, this will cripple them to the point of going back to being televised on the outdoor life network again


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

They sure are shooting themselves in the foot, both sides. Of course us SAPS in leaf-nation are not missing much. :(

At least i have the Blue Jays to look forward to, they bought most of the Marlins! You ball fans in Miami must be pizzed!

:beer:

[PonyUP]

[QUOTE=PonyUP;1237509]

They sure are shooting themselves in the foot, both sides. Of course us SAPS in leaf-nation are not missing much. :(

At least i have the Blue Jays to look forward to, they bought most of the Marlins! You ball fans in Miami must be pizzed!

:beer:

I would think the Marlin fans would be used to it,2 massive sell offs in the last 12 years is pretty bad.

With the Arod debacle and Red Dox nation still reeling, could be good for the Jays


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

[QUOTE=PonyUP;1237509]

They sure are shooting themselves in the foot, both sides. Of course us SAPS in leaf-nation are not missing much. :(

At least i have the Blue Jays to look forward to, they bought most of the Marlins! You ball fans in Miami must be pizzed!

:beer:

I want Mark Buehrle back damn it. :(


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[SC Cheesehead]

It's all about the NFL now, fellas, and I'm feeling pretty good. Da Bears got an azz whoopin' last night, the 'Queenies are floundering back in third spot in the NFCN; who cares about some goofy "fiscal cliff" anyway, life is good in Titletown!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/AtxYyuBCMAAV71_.jpg

[PonyUP]

It's all about the NFL now, fellas, and I'm feeling pretty good. Da Bears got an azz whoopin' last night, the 'Queenies are floundering back in third spot in the NFCN; who cares about some goofy "fiscal cliff" anyway, life is good in Titletown!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/AtxYyuBCMAAV71_.jpg

Well you still have to play the Bears once, and the Vikings twice, I wouldn't make more room in the trophy case just yet


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[CBT]

Well you still have to play the Bears once, and the Vikings twice, I wouldn't make more room in the trophy case just yet


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

I love you, man.

[SC Cheesehead]

Well you still have to play the Bears once, and the Vikings twice, I wouldn't make more room in the trophy case just yet


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


I love you, man.


Hmmmm, do I sense the need for some beverage wagers to be be placed, with payoffs to occur in KY? (Man, I LOVE free beer! :D -------> :beer:)

[CBT]

Hmmmm, do I sense the need for some beverage wagers to be be placed, with payoffs to occur in KY? (Man, I LOVE free beer! :D -------> :beer:)
I'm fully prepared to Thelma and Louise the Marauder off any fiscal cliff, hopefully I land around Louisville. You're on, sucka.

[PonyUP]

I'm fully prepared to Thelma and Louise the Marauder off any fiscal cliff, hopefully I land around Louisville. You're on, sucka.

I concur, it's on Cheese Balls


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Dr Caleb]

:canada: :canada: THANK YOU!!! :canada: :canada:

:beer:


The point is that Canada sent help. FEMA had their thumbs up their azz from the beginning. Mayor Nagin was useless throughout. Makes no difference who was there firstest with the mostest.


:beer:



Looks like our bretheren from the GWN have done it again:IBTL...:shake:

My apololgies for the offtopic. I was only responding to what, in hindsight, might have been a rhetorical question by fastblackmerc. Had I known that it would have been misinterpreted so badly, I would not have bothered.

:stupid:

[SC Cheesehead]

:beer:



:beer:



My apololgies for the offtopic. I was only responding to what, in hindsight, might have been a rhetorical question by fastblackmerc. Had I known that it would have been misinterpreted so badly, I would not have bothered.

:stupid:


You're too sensitive, bubba, lighten up!


After all, with everything going to $h!t down here, you may have a boatload of roomies up your way real soon! :D

[MMBLUE]

I can not believe this thread is still alive !!!!!!

[GAMike]

, with everything going to $h!t down here, you may have a boatload of roomies up your way real soon! :D


Tru Dat Rex:burn:

[SC Cheesehead]

Tru Dat Rex:burn:


Hmmm, if we go up there as undocumented aliens, will we be "entitled?" :dunno:

[GAMike]

Hmmm, if we go up there as undocumented aliens, will we be "entitled?" :dunno:

Entitled to drink beer:D With yours and my background i'm thinking we should be able to secure jobs as beverage inspectors without too much difficulty.... That should keep us off the welfare roles. Pay us in Gold, Molson or LaBatts..... Works for me:beer:

[Bluerauder]

Well our esteemed "friends" in the White House and in Congress have run the string on this out to the last few hours. Not very likely that anything will get done today. Unfrickin'Believeable. The Prez can't lead. The Pols can't compromise. Hi, Ho, Hi, Ho ..... its Over the Cliff we Go. What ********s. :rolleyes:

[Haggis]

Well our esteemed "friends" in the White House and in Congress have run the string on this out to the last few hours. Not very likely that anything will get done today. Unfrickin'Believeable. The Prez can't lead. The Pols can't compromise. Hi, Ho, Hi, Ho ..... its Over the Cliff we Go. What ********s. :rolleyes:

See you at the bottom. :banana:

[RF Overlord]

You guys shouldn't be bashing our esteemed Congress. It's difficult and complex issues like this that make them worth every penny of the raises they vote for themselves.

[Blk Mamba]

It's all just to show us how much power they have over us, regardless of political affiliation, we are all under their thumb, and now it hurts everyone, they need to be thrown out of their offices, and on their asses, I'd be fired if I didn't do my job in a timely manner, just sayin.

[cat in the hat]

Hey, as long as everything will be decided by Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell, I'm sure it will be swell.

[Bigdogjim]

Told you before sometime you got to tear it down and re-build it!

At least when I go over the cliff I'll be a MARAUDER:burnout:

[Ozark Marauder]

Ht_qjv54iB8=

Hmmm.....Thanks Kentucky for a sane voice in the political wilderness

OZ

[sailsmen]

Understanding that many of those in power believe, 1) the US Constitution was a document created by Supremacists to maintain power for Supremacists by enabling Wealth to be stolen and accumulated, 2) the process to change the Constitution is prohibitive and 3) equality can only be obtained by Income Redistribution until complete collapse results in everyone starting at zero.

Study what Davis, Bell, Ayers and Wright have proposed.

". It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it’s been interpreted, and the Warren court interpreted it in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, it says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn’t shifted. One of the I think tragedies of the civil rights movement was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributed change and in some ways we still suffer from that." - President Obama

[sailsmen]

All this focus and effort on increasing the tax rates on those who currently pay the highest income tax rate to raise enough revenue to pay for ~7 days to run the Fed Gov't is a diversion to the fact that at current growth rates Fed spending will equal 100% of GDP in 20 years.
The Magician says look at this hand while the other hand??????

[GAMike]

So because the President cannot risk a true bipartisan compromise with the House of Representatives (where the process is supposed to begin according to the Constitution), he sends VP Biden to the Senate to effect a vote that further confuses and polarizes low information voters, who he feels gives him some sort of mandate..... So much for leadership.... So much for working hard within the framework of government..........

The House of Representatives needs to not only push back, they need to educate people and expose this tactic for what it is......... An attempted end around of the American People.........

[sailsmen]

It is not about solving the spending caused Fiscal Catastrophe it is all about Redistributing Income, all else is irrelevant.

The House has already passed several fiscal Bills, including bi-partisan bills that Sen Reid has pocket vetoed.

How many votes did Obama get on his 2013 Budgets? In the Senate 0 and 0.

[fastblackmerc]

I say in all the elections coming up in the next 4 years vote ALL incumbents OUT!

They obviously aren't listening to their constituents, so it's time to go!

Just like the NHL situation.... I personally will not go see a professional hockey game this year.

Have to hit them in their pocketbook to get their attention.

[cat in the hat]

It is not about solving the spending caused Fiscal Catastrophe it is all about Redistributing Income, all else is irrelevant.

The median income in the US is about $50k. You're not going to be able to generate any sympathy for people who make 10x that.

By the time the people in the middle class who make maybe 50% more than the median - people in the $75-100k range - realize that they're next, it's already over.

[GAMike]

Here I alluded to a procedural sidestep by the POTUS..... I now read, that the request to negotiate this deal in the Senate came from SOH Boehner.......

My mistake..... Was wondering why he was so quiet this weekend.... Guess this is the Senate doing his job for him so the fallout (whatever it may be) won't stick to him.

Like Fast Black Merc says....... Vote em all out... Wipe the slate clean.......


So because the President cannot risk a true bipartisan compromise with the House of Representatives (where the process is supposed to begin according to the Constitution), he sends VP Biden to the Senate to effect a vote that further confuses and polarizes low information voters, who he feels gives him some sort of mandate..... So much for leadership.... So much for working hard within the framework of government..........

The House of Representatives needs to not only push back, they need to educate people and expose this tactic for what it is......... An attempted end around of the American People.........

[prchrman]

taxes now, spending cuts never.

[J-MAN]

taxes now, spending cuts never.

You left out new spending!

[sailsmen]

The median income in the US is about $50k. You're not going to be able to generate any sympathy for people who make 10x that.

By the time the people in the middle class who make maybe 50% more than the median - people in the $75-100k range - realize that they're next, it's already over.

You are correct it is over. That's the point I have been making.

Although in theory it's possible there is no will to stop redistribution until complete collapse and barring an unforeseen giant leap in technology we are going to experience Argentina 2001. Argentina 2001 is the closest scenario I can find.

With in 7 years of the collapse ending those that currently have the Wealth will have 80% of it back and with in 10 years 99% of it back. Most people are not risk takers, the few that are is what generates wealth.

All that will result is unnecessary suffering, primarily impacting the poor.:mad:

I encourage people who I think have the skills to start their own business all the time. Two different groups asked to meet with me for feed back in the past several months and both I have encouraged to proceed with their new business plans.

I have taken measured risks on a number of occasions and have made a measured return as a result.

[sailsmen]

Using current growth rates Fed spending will equal 100% of GDP in 20 years. 100% taxation - here comes CastroMaoPotStalin! Gotta Love our elected "officials".:D

[jerrym3]

You are correct it is over. That's the point I have been making.

Although in theory it's possible there is no will to stop redistribution until complete collapse and barring an unforeseen giant leap in technology we are going to experience Argentina 2001. Argentina 2001 is the closest scenario I can find.

With in 7 years of the collapse ending those that currently have the Wealth will have 80% of it back and with in 10 years 99% of it back. Most people are not risk takers, the few that are is what generates wealth.

All that will result is unnecessary suffering, primarily impacting the poor.:mad:

I encourage people who I think have the skills to start their own business all the time. Two different groups asked to meet with me for feed back in the past several months and both I have encouraged to proceed with their new business plans.

I have taken measured risks on a number of occasions and have made a measured return as a result.

If your projections are correct, what good is starting a new business if there's no customers with money?

[SC Cheesehead]

I never thought I'd say this, but maybe it's time to move on...

http://internationalliving.com/

[kernie]

I never thought I'd say this, but maybe it's time to move on...

http://internationalliving.com/


I kinda thought you liked SC...

[Bigdogjim]

Me? I staying put here in NJ:)

[SC Cheesehead]

I kinda thought you liked SC...

Still get some cold weather here, maybe time to move further South... ;)

[MrBluGruv]

If your projections are correct, what good is starting a new business if there's no customers with money?

The funny part about this is that that's the other aspect of what he's been saying all along: break 'em all until everyone has nothing and are all equal in that way (except of course the glorious policy writers, they are above the general populace, so sayeth them.)

I guess the final sentiment you could come to in this situation is "do you want to die fighting or sitting?"

[SC Cheesehead]

The funny part about this is that that's the other aspect of what he's been saying all along: break 'em all until everyone has nothing and are all equal in that way (except of course the glorious policy writers, they are above the general populace, so sayeth them.)

I guess the final sentiment you could come to in this situation is "do you want to die fighting or sitting?"


Tax the rich, feed the poor
'Til there are no rich no more

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy

Ten Years After: I'd Love to Change the World

[sailsmen]

Giving up is 100% certainty to fail.

[cat in the hat]

Giving up is 100% certainty to fail.

Both sides are in the business of telling you that the sky is falling. It's not.

[PonyUP]

Both sides are in the business of telling you that the sky is falling. It's not.

Plus 348 million


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[PonyUP]

Wait for it though, there will be a post that goes on for four pages about redistribution of wealth


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[WhatsUpDOHC]

Tax the rich, feed the poor
'Til there are no rich no more

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy

Ten Years After: I'd Love to Change the World
You forgot "Oh Yeah!".......
Thanks. Now this song will be in my head all day.

[SC Cheesehead]

Wait for it though, there will be a post that goes on for four pages about redistribution of wealth


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


Well, Brad, if you're increasing taxes, but not making any subtantive effort to cut spending or reduce the deficit, then what is the objective other than getting high earners to pay their "fair share"? :dunno:

[PonyUP]

Well, Brad, if you're increasing taxes, but not making any subtantive effort to cut spending or reduce the deficit, then what is the objective other than getting high earners to pay their "fair share"? :dunno:

I couldn't agree more Rex, we absolutely have to cut spending which will be the debate for the next two months as we approach the debt ceiling deadline
But all the googling and copy and pasting speaking of an apocalypse and Obamas goal being to bankrupt the country as it is his absolute desire to bankrupt the wealthy and give to people who aren't working is ridiculous and I'm fed up with it.
What he is trying to do is return to the Clinton tax rates. History has proven cutting taxes during time of recession does not work. Reagan knew it,George HW Bush knew it and Clinton knew it.
My hope is that now that he got his tax increase on the rich, the compromises will come in spending cuts, I agree with Mitch McConnels press release of yesterday.
Either way, it is not Obamas goal to destroy the world and all the copy and pasting of the sky falling is ridiculous


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[GAMike]

I hope you are right Brad. We need to skip the week of gloating and credit taking........ Congress needs to go right back to work so that the sequester and the debt ceiling discussions/negotiations get finalized/agreed upon well in advance of the last minute of the last day......

my personal problem (as well as many business leaders {of which, I am not One :)}) is that I don't trust Obama. While he claims a goal of his is to shore up the middle class, his policies have not addressed the loss of home equity, jobs and a clear economic vision forward that business leaders need for planning purposes..... Even if he'd address ea. in detail, we have seen so much double talk, sidestepping and abandonment of campaign promises during the first 4 years, its gonna take a year of Obama making decsions, that stick to his campaign trail promises without exception, for the unconvinced to give him a 2nd chance......... He's kept 1 so far.... Raising taxes on the wealthy. Sandy Bill up next (minus the "pork" hopefully), then sequester and debt ceiling........ Interested to see what gets "bundled" into the backside of those issues, and who calls who out for it....... Would have been good if Obama had slammed the pork in the Sandy Bill before going back to Hawaii.......


I couldn't agree more Rex, we absolutely have to cut spending which will be the debate for the next two months as we approach the debt ceiling deadline
But all the googling and copy and pasting speaking of an apocalypse and Obamas goal being to bankrupt the country as it is his absolute desire to bankrupt the wealthy and give to people who aren't working is ridiculous and I'm fed up with it.
What he is trying to do is return to the Clinton tax rates. History has proven cutting taxes during time of recession does not work. Reagan knew it,George HW Bush knew it and Clinton knew it.
My hope is that now that he got his tax increase on the rich, the compromises will come in spending cuts, I agree with Mitch McConnels press release of yesterday.
Either way, it is not Obamas goal to destroy the world and all the copy and pasting of the sky falling is ridiculous


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[PonyUP]

I hope you are right Brad. We need to skip the week of gloating and credit taking........ Congress needs to go right back to work so that the sequester and the debt ceiling discussions/negotiations get finalized/agreed upon well in advance of the last minute of the last day......

my personal problem (as well as many business leaders {of which, I am not One :)}) is that I don't trust Obama. While he claims a goal of his is to shore up the middle class, his policies have not addressed the loss of home equity, jobs and a clear economic vision forward that business leaders need for planning purposes..... Even if he'd address ea. in detail, we have seen so much double talk, sidestepping and abandonment of campaign promises during the first 4 years, its gonna take a year of Obama making decsions, that stick to his campaign trail promises without exception, for the unconvinced to give him a 2nd chance......... He's kept 1 so far.... Raising taxes on the wealthy. Sandy Bill up next (minus the "pork" hopefully), then sequester and debt ceiling........ Interested to see what gets "bundled" into the backside of those issues, and who calls who out for it....... Would have been good if Obama had slammed the pork in the Sandy Bill before going back to Hawaii.......

What's frustrating about the Sandy Bill was the lack of vote. Yes the Senate bill had over 900 million in extra spending, some related to areas not effected by the storm and predating the storm. However the house version worked on by Christie, Cantor, and King had all of that removed. Boehner promised a vote yesterday, then tried to skip town without calling it. Now in an effort of spin control, he called for a vote on 9 billion tomorrow and the remaining 51 billion on the 15th
Where I grow frustrated is, this move is absolutely appalling delaying relief for an area in desperate need of it is not a party issue, but a humanity one.
However all of Obamas critics that have such a pointed finger towards him fail to point that same finger and their own parties leaders that have failed them.
Make no mistake about it, Obama has failed this country, but he hasn't done it alone


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[SC Cheesehead]

Mike, Brad, ^^^^^^ SPOT ON with both posts!

I have absolutely had it with the :bs: posturing and finger-pointing on both sides of the aisle. Time to suck it up and make the hard decisions now, not keep kicking the can down the road.

If we're going to raise taxes, let's do it across the board and use the revenues raised to pay down the deficit, not fund more pork! :mad2:

[Ozark Marauder]

Well, Brad, if you're increasing taxes, but not making any subtantive effort to cut spending or reduce the deficit, then what is the objective other than getting high earners to pay their "fair share"? :dunno:

Just a question; what percentage of your total gross income would you consider fair share?

[fastblackmerc]

Just a question; what percentage of your total gross income would you consider fair share?

I would like to see a flat 10%.

No other deductions.

Corporations included.

[SC Cheesehead]

Just a question; what percentage of your total gross income would you consider fair share?

A "fair" share IMO is equal across the board.


I would like to see a flat 10%.

No other deductions.

Corporations included.


^^^^^ What he said.

10% across the board. If you earn a paycheck, you pay 10% of it in taxes; and if you're an incorporated entity, the same rules apply.

[Ozark Marauder]

No deductions at all? What about charity? How far down the income ladder does the 10% flat tax go. Do the people who are earning at or below the poverty rate pay also?

OZ

[fastblackmerc]

No deductions at all? What about charity? How far down the income ladder does the 10% flat tax go. Do the people who are earning at or below the poverty rate pay also?

OZ

Everyone pays 10%

Everyone...........

[CWright]

I got this today from a State Rep I work with very closely. It's put in simple terms.

“Fiscal Cliff” put in a much better perspective.


Lesson # 1


: * U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000


* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000 *


New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000


* National debt: $16,424,100,000,000 *


Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000 ..


Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:


* Annual family income: $21,700


* Money the family spent: $38,200


* New debt on the credit card: $16,500


* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710


* Total budget cuts so far: $38.50

Got It ??


......OK now, Lesson # 2:

Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

Let's say, You come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood.... and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

What do you think you should do ...... Raise the ceilings, or remove the S@#t?

[Cheeseheadbob]

i got this today from a state rep i work with very closely. It's put in simple terms.

“fiscal cliff” put in a much better perspective.


lesson # 1


: * u.s. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000


* fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000 *


new debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000


* national debt: $16,424,100,000,000 *


recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000 ..


let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:


* annual family income: $21,700


* money the family spent: $38,200


* new debt on the credit card: $16,500


* outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710


* total budget cuts so far: $38.50

got it ??


......ok now, lesson # 2:

here's another way to look at the debt ceiling:

let's say, you come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood.... And your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

what do you think you should do ...... Raise the ceilings, or remove the s@#t?
^^^^^^
Bravo!!!!

[Cheeseheadbob]

This strips the argument down to the core! Both parties, and it pains me to say that because we only have two recognized parties, are significantly more worried about their own collective job security than the rest of the citizens they supposedly represent!

Make no mistake about it, Obama has failed this country, but he hasn't done it alone


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[PonyUP]

I got this today from a State Rep I work with very closely. It's put in simple terms.

“Fiscal Cliff” put in a much better perspective.


Lesson # 1


: * U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000


* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000 *


New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000


* National debt: $16,424,100,000,000 *


Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000 ..


Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:


* Annual family income: $21,700


* Money the family spent: $38,200


* New debt on the credit card: $16,500


* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710


* Total budget cuts so far: $38.50

Got It ??


......OK now, Lesson # 2:

Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

Let's say, You come home from work and find there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood.... and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

What do you think you should do ...... Raise the ceilings, or remove the S@#t?

Well said, very well said, if only our politicians could understand it


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[SC Cheesehead]

Everyone pays 10%

Everyone...........

What he said.

You want fair, everyone paying something is fair.

BTW, to put the current tax structure in perspective:

Already the most progressively taxed nation in the world, the U.S. becomes more top heavy with the new tax code, analysts say.
With income tax hikes concentrated on only those individuals earning more than $400,000 and couples making more than $450,000, about 40 percent of all federal income taxes will now be paid by just .7 percent of all federal income tax returns, according to preliminary numbers from Tax Foundation Chief Economist William McBride.
"We are currently the reigning champion of progressivity. This deal will make our tax code even more progressive," said McBride. "We cannot sustain a situation where the top 1 percent pays 40 percent of the tax burden, while the bottom half roughly on average pays no income taxes."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/03/tax-hikes-start-this-week-for-all/#ixzz2Gx2uVA9a

[Mr. Man]

This strips the argument down to the core! Both parties, and it pains me to say that because we only have two recognized parties, are significantly more worried about their own collective job security than the rest of the citizens they supposedly represent!
Been saying it for years, term limits for Congress. Might need the States to get this done.

Raise the time limit for representation for the House to four years and two terms. Then two terms for the Senate at the present 6 year time. Then President for two terms and if you can't get it done in that time it's time you should move on anyways. Since most people won't be President that limits your career to 20 years if you are popular with the constituency, which is a good long career.

[SC Cheesehead]

Been saying it for years, term limits for Congress. Might need the States to get this done.

Raise the time limit for representation for the House to four years and two terms. Then two terms for the Senate at the present 6 year time. Then President for two terms and if you can't get it done in that time it's time you should move on anyways. Since most people won't be President that limits your career to 20 years if you are popular with the constituency, which is a good long career.


Big +1 to the above.

The Founding Fathers never intended representation to be a career opportunity, about time we get the program back on track.

[Marauderjack]

Big +1 to the above.

The Founding Fathers never intended representation to be a career opportunity, about time we get the program back on track.

Problem is that not only are the Foxes in the Chicken Coup they also "OWN" the damn thing!!:mad2::argue:

How do we STOP this ridiculous insanity......BOTH PARTIES are guilty!!:shake:

[SC Cheesehead]

Problem is that not only are the Foxes in the Chicken Coup they also "OWN" the damn thing!!:mad2::argue:

How do we STOP this ridiculous insanity......BOTH PARTIES are guilty!!:shake:

True, that.

Unfortunately... :(

[PonyUP]

Problem is that not only are the Foxes in the Chicken Coup they also "OWN" the damn thing!!:mad2::argue:

How do we STOP this ridiculous insanity......BOTH PARTIES are guilty!!:shake:

The only way to stop it is to be active participants in the process. We need to rally the vote, write our representatives and most importantly, actively vote on city, state, and federal elections.
We need to make educated decisions based on facts and not soundbites from 24hr new stations and media.
We need to stop repeating what radicals stat as fact but rather make an effort to learn the truth for ourselves.

And lastly, no one should be allowed an opinion on the political process unless they participate in it.

Unfortunately none of the above happens


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[RF Overlord]

A friend once said: "Anyone who WANTS to be a politician...SHOULDN'T be."

[SC Cheesehead]

A friend once said: "Anyone who WANTS to be a politician...SHOULDN'T be."


Can I get a witness, brother!

[sailsmen]

Big +1 to the above.

The Founding Fathers never intended representation to be a career opportunity, about time we get the program back on track.

We are not represented. 1 representative represents 724,000! How can 1 person possible represent that many different people. Using the original representation The House should have 43,500 members.

All they care about is themselves. They do not care about you or me or the Nation.

They view themselves as a member of a whole separate class, Royalty. How many became multi millionaires while in office?

I refuse to stand or applaud to recognize any of them.

As Public Servants they should be applauding and bowing before us.

I support 1 term for all offices. 1 term and you are representing the people. More than 1 term and you are representing yourself.

[jerrym3]

We are not represented. 1 representative represents 724,000! How can 1 person possible represent that many different people. Using the original representation The House should have 43,500 members.

All they care about is themselves. They do not care about you or me or the Nation.

They view themselves as a member of a whole separate class, Royalty. How many became multi millionaires while in office?

I refuse to stand or applaud to recognize any of them.

As Public Servants they should be applauding and bowing before us.

I support 1 term for all offices. 1 term and you are representing the people. More than 1 term and you are representing yourself.

Sounds like you favor a true Democracy where everybody votes on everything. Nice idea, never happen.

Now, how did they become multi millionaires?

Answer, special interests with money to burn.

And, who are the special interests with money to burn?

Answer, corporations.

And, who runs the corporations?

Answer, not me or you.

So, we go round and round and round and................

[Marauderjack]

The only way to stop it is to be active participants in the process. We need to rally the vote, write our representatives and most importantly, actively vote on city, state, and federal elections.
We need to make educated decisions based on facts and not soundbites from 24hr new stations and media.
We need to stop repeating what radicals stat as fact but rather make an effort to learn the truth for ourselves.

And lastly, no one should be allowed an opinion on the political process unless they participate in it.

Unfortunately none of the above happens

I agree but how the HELL can anyone change such a corrupt system......archaic voting on TUESDAY ONLY...duh....and all the OLD FOLK vote counters required to get the results in from 7:00 PM to Midnight.....IMPOSSIBLE!! Hell, it takes American Idol 24 hours to do their foolishness with state of the art computers!!:shake:

ALSO.....the "programmed" voting machines along with the damn media screw it up even more!!

We are "Force FED" what the Washington "Electorate" want to feed us with NO available argument.......MAKES ME SO DAMN MAD!!!:mad2::mad2:

I'm finished......for now!!:cool:

[SC Cheesehead]

...President Obama signed a last-minute deal crafted by the Senate and finally passed by the Republican-controlled House that avoided tax increases for most middle-class earners. But the agreement failed to cut the country’s estimated $16.4 trillion debt or resolve other major fiscal concerns, the watchdog groups argue.

“We don’t think it’s time for a standing ovation and slaps on the back,” says the bipartisan group Fix the Debt. Washington lawmakers “haven’t actually solved anything yet. In fact, they punted on the most difficult issues.”


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/06/budget-watchdogs-extend-campaign-say-recent-fiscal-deal-doesnt-cut-it/#ixzz2HI2sNixo

Seems everybody but the Washington hacks can see how ineffective Congress is.:rolleyes:

[rayjay]

Kinda reminds ya of Rome doesn't it?

[Bluerauder]

The massive impacts of Government inaction start Friday, 1 March. Absolutely NOTHING is gonna happen this week. Expect to see 2 Million more Americans on the unemployment rolls. Forced furloughs for many workers. Huge cutbacks across the board with these senseless Sequestration cuts. Economic impacts wil be devastating. This Presidency is Failed. This Congress is a Joke.

[Haggis]

I hope nothing is done and the whole government shuts down.

[Marauderjack]

I hope nothing is done and the whole DAMN government shuts down.

Fixed it fer ya!!;)

[sailsmen]

Per Lawerence Kudlow - "Please remember that these so-called cuts come off a rising budget baseline in most cases. So the sequester
would slow the growth of spending. They’re not real cuts in the level of spending."

With the sequester Fed spending will increase this year by ~$15,000,000,000. After having increased 21+% in the past 4 years.

At current growth rates Fed spending will exceed the economy in less than 20 years.

The amount of the annual sequester is equal to what the Fed Reserve prints in 1 month for QE or ~2.3% of annual Fed spending.

FEDERAL SPENDING IS NOT BEING CUT! There is only a reduction in the GROWTH of spending.

[CBT]

Obama is going to be here inside the shipyard today to tell us all everything will be okey dokey, then hand out free puppies. :beer:

[guspech750]

Obama is going to be here inside the shipyard today to tell us all everything will be okey dokey, then hand out free puppies. :beer:

He's with me in my heart and soul everyday making me feel good.

I win.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[Bluerauder]

FEDERAL SPENDING IS NOT BEING CUT! There is only a reduction in the GROWTH of spending.

While this ^^^^^ statement may be true at the macro-budget level, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE at the program level. Real cuts are planned. Furlough notices have gone out to Government civilians who will essentially take a 20% pay cut starting on Friday. Term employees have been given their walking papers. Contracts for on-going repairs and maintenance will be delayed or cancelled completely. Deployments are being cancelled. Training is being curtailed. Expect that alot of this will bleed over into major impacts in the commercial and civil sectors. Not sure how much more of this "Change" we can take.

Of course Obama is on the news saying that teachers will go first along with FBI agents. Police and Fire Services trimmed. Border Patrols will be cut back. Department of Justice (DOJ) will stop criminal trials. Prisons will let criminals go. The classic "Gold Watch" game.

Unemployment, Welfare and Food Stamps (I mean Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program [SNAP]) will grow.

Watch the DOW and NASDAQ this week to see their confidence levels piss away any 401(k) you might have.

[CBT]

While this ^^^^^ statement may be true at the macro-budget level, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE at the program level. Real cuts are planned. Furlough notices have gone out to Government civilians who will essentially take a 20% pay cut starting on Friday. Term employees have been given their walking papers. Contracts for on-going repairs and maintenance will be delayed or cancelled completely. Deployments are being cancelled. Training is being curtailed. Expect that alot of this will bleed over into major impacts in the commercial and civil sectors. Not sure how much more of this "Change" we can take.

Of course Obama is on the news saying that teachers will go first along with FBI agents. Police and Fire Services trimmed. Border Patrols will be cut back. Department of Justice (DOJ) will stop criminal trials. Prisons will let criminals go. The classic "Gold Watch" game.

Unemployment, Welfare and Food Stamps (I mean Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program [SNAP]) will grow.

Watch the DOW and NASDAQ this week to see their confidence levels piss away any 401(k) you might have.


Good point, hadn't thought of that, may have to turn on the t.v. here at work.

[guspech750]

Fk it. Let it happen. We need a complete government collapse.

We could deploy an aircraft carrier to Lake Michigan and put huge beat down on Rahm Emanual.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[CBT]

The Navy couldn't afford to park an aircraft carrier downtown, that's about 120 parking meters at what, 22 bucks an hour? :D


Fk it. Let it happen. We need a complete government collapse.

We could deploy an aircraft carrier to Lake Michigan and put huge beat down on Rahm Emanual.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[guspech750]

The Navy couldn't afford to park an aircraft carrier downtown, that's about 120 parking meters at what, 22 bucks an hour? :D
:lol:

:lol:


True. Might really bankrupt our Navy then.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[sailsmen]

Means tested welfare is the single largest Budget item. Larger than Defense, larger than SS and larger than Medicare.
The Fed Reserve is pumping TRILLIONS into the Stock Market by printing money. Last fiscal year the Fed Reserve bought 75% of the Fed Gov't Debt. In 2012 the Fed Reserve bought more Debt from the Fed Gov't than was issued meaning it is printing and GIVING the Fed Gov't money. The largest holder of Fed Gov't Debt is the Fed Reserve.

As a % of GDP Revenue to the Fed Gov't equals the 60 year post WWII average. As a % of GDP Fed spending is ~20% higher than the 60 year post WWII average.
Federal Gov't Debt on a per capita basis is 35% greater than Greece.

How Big can the BUBBLE get?

[CBT]

Audit the Federal Reserve!!

[Mike M]

i say do nothing, go over the cliff. Sit back and listen to all the one's who believed in hope, change and moving forward live the dream they were sold.

It is going to be one ugly ride, mostly for those that are buried in debt and may potentially lose their job on top of that.

Then lets take a look in the middle east and what happened today, let's see if america backs israel , if not, december 22 may be the real deal.

There was just no way to not make this political, if the current potus chooses to maintain his stance of policy, this country will be a mess.

If someone wants to argue this, let's do it via pm, no need to trash the board.


+111111111

[Mike M]

means tested welfare is the single largest budget item. Larger than defense, larger than ss and larger than medicare.
The fed reserve is pumping trillions into the stock market by printing money. Last fiscal year the fed reserve bought 75% of the fed gov't debt. In 2012 the fed reserve bought more debt from the fed gov't than was issued meaning it is printing and giving the fed gov't money. The largest holder of fed gov't debt is the fed reserve.

As a % of gdp revenue to the fed gov't equals the 60 year post wwii average. As a % of gdp fed spending is ~20% higher than the 60 year post wwii average.
Federal gov't debt on a per capita basis is 35% greater than greece.

How big can the bubble get?


+111111111111

[rayjay]

Hmm, I wonder if the ChiComs will call in their markers?