CT Shooting

[1 Bad Merc]

Where do these sick people come from???????

How could someone shoot those children ????? :mad2:

I have two children and I cannot fathom what kind of evil this takes to do this crap.

My thoughts and prayers are with those poor people at that school-what a horrible tragedy.

[CWright]

This is incomprehensble. I have been following this all morning. My heart pours out for these families.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I just read the story...I now have tears streaming down my face.

Those poor, innocent kids....

[Curless]

There are no words...

[Fosters]

The maniac that did this is lucky he killed himself. I wish doctors could revive him and put him in a room with the dads of the victims. What caused this lunatic to go off, I simply cannot comprehend...

In before the media turns this into a gun control issue. No, wait, too late...

[Bluerauder]

Just saw this running on the news channel on the TV in the building lobby. How sad. News is reporting between 10- and 20 elementary school kids killed in the senseless shooting. :bigcry:

Wanna bet that there were many indicators that this guy had more than a couple screws loose BEFORE this all happened?

[Curless]

The maniac that did this is lucky he killed himself. I wish doctors could revive him and put him in a room with the dads of the victims. What caused this lunatic to go off, I simply cannot comprehend...

In before the media turns this into a gun control issue. No, wait, too late...

Yes, I am waiting for the Facebook mess of gun control freaks...

[IwantmyMMnow!]

...if there's anything we can do to help/offer support, please let us know...

[Blk04MM]

I just posted about this shooting. Very sad. Very.

And gun control? Will never happen. You take one you have to attempt to take all. That's like drug control. Impossible.

It's some the sick individuals that own the weapons that need to be controlled. Not everyone who owns and carry is a nut case willing to shoot up everything.
My prayers go out to the families and those lost

[Vortech347]

Its aweful. The one place you'd think kids would be OK and not have to worry about this kind of stuff.

There is a company that makes IIIA plating and armor inserts for children's backpacks. They only weigh 18oz. When my little one starts going to school I'll be getting one. It might not do a damn bit of good but may work?

[tbone]

People that do this are quite obviously mentally ill. They want to go out in a blaze of glory to get their name in the news. I think there should be a law or at least an agreement with the lame ass media that the identities of these people are kept secret, denying them their notoriety. I bet this type of crime would drop dramatically.

[Mebot]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families. Such senseless tragedy. There are no words to describe this unspeakable horror...

[MOTOWN]

I really wish the nation would focus on keeping our kids safe instead of arguments and broken pledges to change!
How many times does this have to happen?

[Timw286]

May you rot in hell.

[Blk04MM]

I really wish the nation would focus on keeping our kids safe instead of arguments and broken pledges to change!
How many times does this have to happen?

THIS!^^^^

I agree with. One person can't change the world but we all can help to keep the kids safe

[MERCMAN]

Please keep this thread on track with NO political overtones. If you want to do something, pray for the families of those affected by this terrible tragedy

[DEFYANT]

http://www.lawofficer.com/video/news/run-hide-fight-active-shooter

Arm the teachers!

WATCH THIS VIDEO ON HOW TO SURVIVE AN ACTIVE SHOOTER INCIDENT!

[CBT]

http://www.lawofficer.com/video/news/run-hide-fight-active-shooter

Arm the teachers!

WATCH THIS VIDEO ON HOW TO SURVIVE AN ACTIVE SHOOTER INCIDENT!


I said that a police officer earlier, before I even read this. I would rather my kids get hit in the cross-fire of someone defending them than for them to die hopelessly and helplessly. I could not imagine what the parents must be going through. Or what the cops and emt's must be going through having to wade throught that carnage. :(

[Granddaddy Marq]

I said that a police officer earlier, before I even read this. I would rather my kids get hit in the cross-fire of someone defending them than for them to die hopelessly and helplessly. I could not imagine what the parents must be going through. Or what the cops and emt's must be going through having to wade throught that carnage. :(



DITTO!!! My wife retired from our local school system. The school takes responsibility for our children whall they're at school. Having been intrusted with many children over the years, coaching ball teams, feild tripps, kids with absent parents who didn't know a warn supper. I can assure you we will do all we can to see to they'er safty and wellbeing. I want them to do the same when I intrust them. I can't imagen what the families are going though. My heart goes out to them! I'm going to go throw-up now!

[PonyUP]

I hear everyone say that this will be turned into a gun issue, guess what? It is. It was a gunmen that did it. Mentally I'll? Most definitely. Signs it was coming? Probably present.
Could we not curb this by demanding intense gun training similar to police officers before a gun is purchased? Could we not reduce this by having deep background checks into individuals buying guns?
I can go to a gun show tomorrow, show my drivers license and walk out with a gun, shouldn't it take more?
Gun control is not about taking away guns from law abiding citizens, it's about preventing people that shouldn't have them from getting them legally.
And before we start saying arm the teachers, without training the odds of them being able to fend off a madmen under that stress and that kind of adrenaline is slim at best.
But at Dans request I will give this no further political overtones
My prayers are with those families, a terrible tragedy that until today was unfathomable, has hit and hit hard
It's natural that we all have strong feelings about what happened, and it's easy to have an emotional response, which I have.
My apologies for voicing that, but like all that are feeling this, I really just don't want to see anything like this ever happen again
Elementary kids are do innocent and free, I hope tragedy like this stays far away from all our children

God bless


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Shaijack]

20 Children dead, 7 adults.

[slickster]

**** this world

[WhatsUpDOHC]

I haven't stopped hugging my kids (13 and 8) since I got home from work.


I am aching/dying for the parents and families of these kids.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I haven't stopped hugging my kids (13 and 8) since I got home from work.


I am aching/dying for the parents and families of these kids.

^^^^Ditto (10 and 7 here)...It's been a non-stop hugfest since 5pm for me. I even had tears well up when discussing this with the other half when we met for me to get the kids.

The 'annoying' antics of my kids don't seem so annoying now...

God, what those parents/relatives/guardians of those kids must be going through right now...makes my recent struggles in life seem very, very insignificant....

[DOOM]

No words.....

[rocky]

http://www.fox23.com/mostpopular/story/Bartlesville-student-arrested-after-threats-of/8_kvogaUAkeBdun8oL9skA.cspx

Almost happened here in OK...

[PonyUP]

I struggle with events like this, I struggle with rage, I struggle with sadness and so much. The only thing I can think of is how can we prevent this from happening again. The truth is we can't, someone with the determination to do something like this will find a way, and that's the most depressing of all. We can't prevent, we can only pray for safety


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Spectragod]

http://www.fox23.com/mostpopular/story/Bartlesville-student-arrested-after-threats-of/8_kvogaUAkeBdun8oL9skA.cspx

Almost happened here in OK...

Other than the guy told everyone what he was going to do, now all the school officials are busy patting themselves on their backs for thwarting a crime. All it takes is paying attention, in this case, to the verbal threats that were made, and acting, so many times, people don't take the threats serious, and then the unthinkable happens.

I take a little comfort in knowing that they are in a better place now.

[MM2004]

I have a 13 year old daughter. And I pray everyday that she remains safe.

My heart pours out to everyone that has been impacted by this tragic event.

May God bless them.

Mike.

[MOTOWN]

I pray for god to guide these families thru this nightmare, this has been very heavy on my heart since I learned of it.
May god please bless this country!

[rocky]

Prayers for the families...wasn't trying to take away from what happened just sharing similar news feed close to home.
My boys are 6 and 8 and my girlfriend who lives with me is a middle school teacher and her boy is 3....after all this crap I'm thinking HOME SCHOOL!

[1stMerc]

I spent 4 years working on a psych ward back in the late 70's.
Even that doesn't help to ascertain why anyone one would do such a heinous thing.
Especially to innocent kids.

Prayers to parents freinds and that community.

[SC Cheesehead]

I just found out about this this morning (Qatar time) during my daily call home.

When I got the the site, I had one of the supervisors approach me and asked me how something like this could happen in America. I had no good answer to give him other than some people are very evil.

Incomprehensible.

Thoughts and prayers go out to the families.

[ajdereicup]

Prayers sent out. RIP

[Bigdogjim]

He was an honors student who lived in a prosperous neighborhood with his mother, who liked to host dice games and decorate the house for the holidays.
Now Adam Lanza is suspected of killing his mother and then gunning down more than two dozen people, 20 of them children, at the Connecticut school where she taught before taking his own life.
The 20-year-old may have suffered from a personality disorder, law enforcement officials said.

I just pulled the above from a new wire minutes ago. I know more will unfold in the days ahead.

As with this and act like it there will be more questions then answers.

[blkZooM]

I'm only twenty three have no kids but I hope to never imagine what those families feel I don't think anybody really can even grasp their mind around what these families are going through, things that happen in the world don't usually effect me but these were kids, had a whole life ahead of them cut short for what?

Nothing this man could have said if he were still alive would have made sense, and then he takes the easy way out of it by killing himself and leaves these families devastated forever.. Hopefully this guy burns under hell for what he did today

[MyO4Rawdur]

This is just insane. Work of some kind of evil because no one in their right natural living mind would do some crazy stuff like this. He supposedly had some mental illnesses but that shouldve been the reason he wasnt allowed near his mothers 5 weapons. Thats shady as hell. Not to make this sound any less horrific but I lost a friend earlier today around 5pm from at this point an unknown cause and would just like to add her to your thoughts and prayers. She was 22 and I have a neighbor who lost an uncle as well. Very close to the neighborhood and just reminds you that no one is safe at any given point in their life. Death shows no compassion

[1stMerc]

And that's the rub. Why do these people feel the (what ever it is) need to take other peoples lives and then take the cowardly way out. This will never make sense to me.

It's times like this that you really hope theres a heaven and a hell.

[mike P71]

I have a four year old son who I take to and from pre school every day .i cannot imagine what the parents of the deceased are going through tonight. I have been hugging my son all evening with tears in my eyes .My prayers are with them all. God bless

[dakslim]

I lived two towns away from Newtown while living in Ct. My own grandson is in the 1st grade in New Milford which is almost a carbon copy of Newtown. It scares the crap out of me that this could happen anywhere. I'm heartsick for the parents and relatives of those babies.

[jerrym3]

The maniac that did this is lucky he killed himself. I wish doctors could revive him and put him in a room with the dads of the victims. What caused this lunatic to go off, I simply cannot comprehend...

In before the media turns this into a gun control issue. No, wait, too late...


I'd leave him in a room with the 20 mothers.

The fathers would kill him too quickly.

[Vortex]

People that do this are quite obviously mentally ill. They want to go out in a blaze of glory to get their name in the news. I think there should be a law or at least an agreement with the lame ass media that the identities of these people are kept secret, denying them their notoriety. I bet this type of crime would drop dramatically.

You bring up a good point. These psychotics crave attention and dont care if it happens after they are dead. I dont know what the answer is but Im damn sure open to discussing the options. I dont have kids but I really feel for those in Connecticut today.

[1stMerc]

And now it's about to really hit home, as they are preparing to release the names and possibly faces of the victims.

[Bluerauder]

Over the coming weeks, I suspect that we will hear more about the shooter than we ever hoped to hear.

The emerging details start to paint a picture .... at least for me. The boy killed his mother first. He had a problem at home and maybe felt that he was not getting the attention from his mother that he thought he deserved. News reports indicate that he had a personality disorder. It is not out of the realm of possibility that he thought that he was in direct competition with the school kids for his mother's time and affection. After killing his mother, he took the next logical step to eliminate the threat/competition at the school and targetted the kids and teachers. At some point, his rage subsided and he killed himself after the realization that things were only worse now and not better as his distorted brain lead him to believe. That's kinda how I see it for now ... as we wait for the assessments of the motive from the experts.

Such a sad and tragic event. :bigcry:

There will be much gnashing of teeth over how this could ever happen and how everyone wants to prevent it from happening again. Simple fact is that YOU CAN'T. There are 19,000 high schools in the USA. So, that means probably 38,000 Middle Schools and roughly 114,000 elementary schools. That is pretty close to 175,000 schools when you factor in private and specialty schools. Put 2 security guards in each school and you still can't guarantee absolute safety. Assign Secret Service security to every school kid 24/7 and you STILL cannot guarantee absolute safety.

Yes, there are some things that can be done to minimize such a threat/occurrence. However, the chances of this happening at all are pretty small to begin with. That is thin consolation to the parents, family and friends of the victims in Sandy Hook, CT where it DID happen just like Columbine, VA Tech, and the Amish School in PA.

What's more is that I think as a society, we may be headed in a direction where such an event is even more common than it is now. We've been conditioned that we are not supposed to Judge anyone. Don't do anything that might damage the fragile Self-Esteem of another. The absolute worst thing that you can do is to Disrespect someone and that is grounds for killing them. We have insisted that God has no place in schools or in the public square, yet are surprised when something like this happens.

If you look like an Fn nutcase, dress like an Fn nutcase, act like an Fn nutcase .... don't be surprised if I treat you like an Fn nutcase. :P Take a look at the photo circulating on this CT shooter and draw your own conclusions.

[bill64]

this is awful, Ill admit not a hell of alot causes me to hold back tears, but this sure does.

[Ozark Marauder]

As my son went to middle school and high school in a small city, with less than 10 murders a year, most all were related to family domestic violence issues, I always wondered why they needed in-school resource officers, limited electronic entrance and exit points during school hours, random back pack and locker checks, and police patrols in the parking lot. Now I do....

You can't stop crazy, all you can do is be prepared.

I pray for the lost, the parents, and especially the surviving students, whose lives are forever changed.

OZ

[jerrym3]

Over the coming weeks, I suspect that we will hear more about the shooter than we ever hoped to hear.

The emerging details start to paint a picture .... at least for me. The boy killed his mother first. He had a problem at home and maybe felt that he was not getting the attention from his mother that he thought he deserved. News reports indicate that he had a personality disorder. It is not out of the realm of possibility that he thought that he was in direct competition with the school kids for his mother's time and affection. After killing his mother, he took the next logical step to eliminate the threat/competition at the school and targetted the kids and teachers. At some point, his rage subsided and he killed himself after the realization that things were only worse now and not better as his distorted brain lead him to believe. That's kinda how I see it for now ... as we wait for the assessments of the motive from the experts.

Such a sad and tragic event. :bigcry:

There will be much gnashing of teeth over how this could ever happen and how everyone wants to prevent it from happening again. Simple fact is that YOU CAN'T. There are 19,000 high schools in the USA. So, that means probably 38,000 Middle Schools and roughly 114,000 elementary schools. That is pretty close to 175,000 schools when you factor in private and specialty schools. Put 2 security guards in each school and you still can't guarantee absolute safety. Assign Secret Service security to every school kid 24/7 and you STILL cannot guarantee absolute safety.

Yes, there are some things that can be done to minimize such a threat/occurrence. However, the chances of this happening at all are pretty small to begin with. That is thin consolation to the parents, family and friends of the victims in Sandy Hook, CT where it DID happen just like Columbine, VA Tech, and the Amish School in PA.

What's more is that I think as a society, we may be headed in a direction where such an event is even more common than it is now. We've been conditioned that we are not supposed to Judge anyone. Don't do anything that might damage the fragile Self-Esteem of another. The absolute worst thing that you can do is to Disrespect someone and that is grounds for killing them. We have insisted that God has no place in schools or in the public square, yet are surprised when something like this happens.

If you look like an Fn nutcase, dress like an Fn nutcase, act like an Fn nutcase .... don't be surprised if I treat you like an Fn nutcase. :P Take a look at the photo circulating on this CT shooter and draw your own conclusions.

Was his mother possibly killed trying to stop him?

[DEFYANT]

Arm the teachers!

[PonyUP]

Arm the teachers!

Worse idea possible.

Don't think it's a good idea to have teachers have a beretta on the hip while teaching English, if the gun is in the desk, it would have made no difference.

Having a gun does not guarantee a prevention of a tragedy.

Increase security, increase a police presence, restrict outside access, but giving teachers a gun thinking they could prevent this is incredibly nieve in my opinion


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

My thoughts were this. I think it would be a good idea to have one armed guard at the schools. I also think two physically abled teachers should be taught trained and armed, be it a gun or stun gun. Of course they should go through a yearly refresher course too. It's a great line of defense until more help arrives. It just may make a person think twice about going into a school or it may make that armed person duck for cover for a few minutes buying innocent children and teachers more time to escape.

It's no guarantee. But nothing ever is and it's better than nothing.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[Haggis]

Worse idea possible.

Don't think it's a good idea to have teachers have a beretta on the hip while teaching English, if the gun is in the desk, it would have made no difference.

Having a gun does not guarantee a prevention of a tragedy.

Increase security, increase a police presence, restrict outside access, but giving teachers a gun thinking they could prevent this is incredibly nieve in my opinion


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Still will not prevent all tragedies. What needs to be done is a sentence to fit the crime instead of a slap on the wrist and released in 2-3yrs.

[PonyUP]

My thoughts were this. I think it would be a good idea to have one armed guard at the schools. I also think two physically abled teachers should be taught trained and armed, be it a gun or stun gun. Of course they should go through a yearly refresher course too. It's a great line of defense until more help arrives. It just may make a person think twice about going into a school or it may make that armed person duck for cover for a few minutes buying innocent children and teachers more time to escape.

It's no guarantee. But nothing ever is and it's better than nothing.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

This idea, I like a lot


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

This idea, I like a lot


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Yeah. I like it and it's a tax increase I'd be willing to and i bet many other people would accept.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[CWright]

My thoughts were this. I think it would be a good idea to have one armed guard at the schools. I also think two physically abled teachers should be taught trained and armed, be it a gun or stun gun. Of course they should go through a yearly refresher course too. It's a great line of defense until more help arrives. It just may make a person think twice about going into a school or it may make that armed person duck for cover for a few minutes buying innocent children and teachers more time to escape.

It's no guarantee. But nothing ever is and it's better than nothing.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom


This idea, I like a lot


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


My wife is a 3rd grade school teacher and it just so happened they were put on Lock Down the same day. They had a child on the opposite block from her room to get taken away from his dad because he hit him and gave him a black eye. What makes it even worse is this is a special needs child. If most of you feel the way I felt when I heard this, I feel this idiot needs one big ASS beatin of his own. Anyway, the child was taken away and the dad made threats against the teacher, principal, and the Super Intendent. So.... that long story to say this, I totally agree with what was mentioned above. Someone def would need to be trained and have cont training throughout the year. That would be something I would pay for out my own pocket! I am all about keeping my wife and kids protected but a school should be one of the safest places for a child and the teachers. Whatever it takes to protect our innocent babies! What happened in CT was nothing but plain EVIL!

[PonyUP]

Yeah. I like it and it's a tax increase I'd be willing to and i bet many other people would accept.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

Probably not even a need for a tax increase. Federal education funding is mostly eaten up by administrative cost with approximately 10% reaching the classroom, clean that up and we could pay for it


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

Probably not even a need for a tax increase. Federal education funding is mostly eaten up by administrative cost with approximately 10% reaching the classroom, clean that up and we could pay for it


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Yes. I've seen articles on the perks these superintendents receive is sickening. Salaries in the 2 to $300,000+, free cars, personal loans forgiven at tax payers expenses, free trips to lavish resorts for so called work related conferences, huge pensions and much more. There is plenty of money to go to the schools for anything that's needed to teach and secure our teacher and children.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Just read an article that came on line about 2 hours ago.

All the kids were 1st-graders, 6 or 7 years old.

I'm at a total loss for words right now....

[Bluerauder]

Probably not even a need for a tax increase. Federal education funding is mostly eaten up by administrative cost with approximately 10% reaching the classroom, clean that up and we could pay for it.

This ^^^^^ statement is misleading and mostly incorrect.

Using the Prince William County, VA School Budget as an example, total funding for schools is $936.9 Million for about 80,000 students.

Local County funding provides 46% (primarily from RE and Personal Property taxes)
State of Virginia provides another 46% (primarily from VA Income taxes)
Federal support is about 8% (from Fed Income taxes)

The 8% from the Feds is what is considered "Categorical" funding and is targeted for specific uses. This money $75 Million is earmarked for programs that support Special Education or Educational/Economically Disadvantaged Students. It is unlikely that ANY money would be diverted from the Federal pot to support increased security. In fact, under the current "rules", it CANNOT be diverted to other uses.

So adding security staff for all of the schools would result in an increase of either State or Local funding requirements or both. That means a tax increase unless something else is cut. My experience is that schools are very reluctant to cut anything. The first thing they argue is that it will increase the student-teacher ratio or prevent any teacher salary increases. That is their Gold Watch. Truth is that the administration (at the PWCS Headquarters) is overly bloated and could be trimmed fairly easily IMHO.

Even if additional security were funded for each school, it would not guarantee this would never happen again. One or two security guards can only be in so many places at once. In an elementary school with 500-600 students with 30 or more classrooms and many other offices, libraries, etc., that leaves alot of areas "uncovered".

This shooter did not come through the main entrance, he shot out windows and came in a non-traditional entrance. Unless there was one of these security guard right there, by the time one of them could reach the scene the shooter could squeeze off many rounds. The shooting at Fort Hood, TX proves this as there were armed Military Police in the same processing room as the shooter in that case. Even then, he was able to get off a ******** of shots before he was shot and subdued.

Would I support a tax increase to improve safety and security in the schools? YES. Am I naive enough to believe that it is an absolute guarantee of safety for the kids? NO I am not.

[sailsmen]

Evil exists. In a civilized society we like to think Evil does not exist. Keep thinking that does not make it go away.

[Guittard22]

Prayers go out to the victims and their love ones it's a dam shame that so many young ones lost there life to a guy that was mad at his mother. This happen 2 towns over from my girl friends family lives. Hit's you hard when it's close to home like this.

WHY DO PPL DO THINGS LIKE THIS !!!!

[Bluerauder]

Evil exists. In a civilized society we like to think Evil does not exist. Keep thinking that does not make it go away.

I do not dispute this ^^^^^ fact. However, I think that the rate of mentally disturbed or maladjusted individuals has increased drastically in the past 50 years. More and more people are on some kind of medication to control something ranging from bi-polar, to stress, to depression, to ADHD, schizophrenia, autism, aspergers syndrome, and numerous others. The Pharmaceutical companies have a pill for everything and anything and are working on more "disorders" everyday. Big money to be had in controlling people's insecurities and idiosyncracies. And of course, you still have those who are self-medicated using alcohol or drugs.

Simple fact is that even slight chemical imbalances in the brain can cause erratic behavior .... not sure that such behavior can be classified as Evil on its own merits. Certainly, the outcome (such as in CT) can be considered Evil.

[Bigdogjim]

We have insisted that God has no place in schools or in the public square, yet are surprised when something like this happens.

If you notice whenever new like a mass shooting hit the media most times it covers people in Chruch praying. Like Charlie said we take God out School then run to Him and pray when something bad happens?

I agree Charlie sad indeed. Still I pray for the dead and the living in Ct.

R.I.P. Kids sorry we failed you.

[CWright]

I try not to impose my beliefs on anyone because I never want to drive anyone away because of a comment from me. All I would like to request is if anyone feels lead to pray for how to fix this kind of problem in our society to please ask for wisdom. God promises that if we ask for wisdom he will give it.

I just saw where another plot was foiled on Friday where an 18 year old student was trying to get kids to go to the auditorium where he could chain the doors behind them and open fire. Something is very wrong with society when this is coming out of it.

Here is the article below.
Oklahoma teen arrested in school shooting plot

Published December 15, 2012
Associated Press

BARTLESVILLE, Okla. – A Bartlesville High School student is in custody on charges he plotted to bomb and shoot students at the campus auditorium on the same day that 28 people were shot and killed at an elementary school in Connecticut.
Police arrested 18-year-old Sammie Eaglebear Chavez at about 4:30 a.m. Friday after learning of the alleged plot Thursday.
An arrest affidavit says Chavez tried to convince other students to help him lure students into the auditorium, chain the doors shut and start shooting. The Tulsa World reports that authorities say Chavez threatened to kill students who didn't help.
The Bartlesville Examiner-Enterprise reports Chavez planned to detonate bombs at the doors as police arrived.
The school district says students were never in danger. Chavez is being held on $1 million bond.

[Bluerauder]

Something is very wrong with society when this is coming out of it.

This ^^^^^ statement really needs to be balanced with some perspective. Society did not commit this heinous act. A very disturbed individual is completely and totally responsible for the death and destruction of innocents at the CT school.

Society may be somewhat complicit in the fact that we have become so politically correct in everything we do and say. It is "wrong" to judge other people for their actions or their stated thoughts without knowing all of their background, their circumstances, their upbringing, their abuse as a child, and so many other things. Lets NOT say anything that might damage the fragile Self-Esteem of anyone. No one says a thing even when they witness the most outrageous acts. It is NOT my place and it is NOT my reponsibility. This is how and why so many of these disturbed individuals fly under the radar.

For instance, take the case of the Fort Hood, TX shooter. He was a psychaiatrist working at Walter Reed Medical Center. He worked with other shrinks. They ALL knew that he was "unbalanced". Instead of getting him into treatment or blowing the whistle, they decided it was better to transfer him. Not their problem anymore. It was someone else's problem. Now a bunch of people are dead at Fort Hood. This tragedy could have been avoided if his supervisor's and co-workers would have, could have diagnosed the issue and raised a flag to someone -- anyone to get this guy off the street and into some kind of treatment program. Such a story is repeated over, and over, and over again with the same results. Everyone knew that he was disturbed, unbalanced, violent, etc. but did NOTHING.

There's an old saying that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

That is society's problem ..... We have been conditioned to DO NOTHING. Of course, everyone cries and gets emotional after the fact. Only action before the fact will prevent a reoccurrence.

[rayjay]

Society may be somewhat complicit in the fact that we have become so politically correct in everything we do and say. It is "wrong" to judge other people for their actions or their stated thoughts without knowing all of their background, their circumstances, their upbringing, their abuse as a child, and so many other things. Lets NOT say anything that might damage the fragile Self-Esteem of anyone. No one says a thing even when they witness the most outrageous acts. It is NOT my place and it is NOT my reponsibility. This is how and why so many of these disturbed individuals fly under the radar.

For instance, take the case of the Fort Hood, TX shooter. He was a psychaiatrist working at Walter Reed Medical Center. He worked with other shrinks. They ALL knew that he was "unbalanced". Instead of getting him into treatment or blowing the whistle, they decided it was better to transfer him. Not their problem anymore. It was someone else's problem. Now a bunch of people are dead at Fort Hood. This tragedy could have been avoided if his supervisor's and co-workers would have, could have diagnosed the issue and raised a flag to someone -- anyone to get this guy off the street and into some kind of treatment program. Such a story is repeated over, and over, and over again with the same results. Everyone knew that he was disturbed, unbalanced, violent, etc. but did NOTHING.

There's an old saying that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

That is society's problem ..... We have been conditioned to DO NOTHING. Of course, everyone cries and gets emotional after the fact. Only action before the fact will prevent a reoccurrence.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of those innocent children and their teachers who did nothing to deserve a lunatic going beserk in their school.

Charlie, as per normal, you are right on the money. I am 99.99% certain it will come out that someone knew about this guy, and did nothing. I can tell you from personal experience how difficult it is to get a EDP treated. Especially if they don't want to be or have been run through the "system" before. BUT, its so inhumane to just store these people away. Uh huh :rolleyes:, these incidents are increasing and will continue to increase due to the road this country is headed down. Its called a rock sled to hell...

May God help us.

[jerrym3]

For once, I agree with sailsman.

Yes, there is evil everywhere.

So why make it so easy for them to do evil things?

His mother was a law abiding citizen, as the vast majority of gunowners are. She wasn't evil.

But, that didn't stop this killer.

This SOB wasn't stupid. If there were a security guard present, he/she would have been his first target. And, the killer would have body protection whereas the security guard would probably not.

And, considering what the payscale would be for a school security guard armed with, most likely, a holstered handgun, someone slightly younger than I would most likely have that job, and I'm old.

There's no simple answer.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

...............

[Spectragod]

Why did the mother have multiple guns in the house and how was the :censor: shooter able to get them?

I can understand having A gun, but more than one? The demographics of the area don't lead me to believe that multiple weapons in the home are needed for protection...possibly not even one.

I've never owned a gun; I've never felt it was necessary, partly because it was prohibited (living in dorms on military base) and partly because of where I have lived. The only time I've shot a weapon was for training purposes in the military.

And before someone mis-interprets what I'm saying, no, I'm not trying to start a discussion on gun control...I just want answers to my questions.

Why more than 1 gun? A lot of people collect firearms, LEO's are probably some of the biggest collectors, Compare it to women collecting Longaberger baskets, to some, it is just an item to collect, I myself have many guns, not that I live in a bad neighbor hood, but because I can A) afford it B) want to C) legally can D) enjoy periodically go shooting E) Some of these are actually for my job.

How about this, why do you need to mod you car, you don't need more power or bling. Or, why do you have more than 1 car, you can only drive 1 at a time?

I think instead of trying to look at the gun as the object that caused all this, lets look at the individual, and more specifically the individuals that had knowledge of this goofs intentions, that is where the focus should be.

Want to protect people......stop making them gun free zones and allow individuals to protect themselves, these kooks will always "hunt" easy prey, the solution is not to make it easy.

Still...... many many prayers are going to be needed for those souls and the family's of the victims, please continue praying for them.

[1stMerc]

The perpetrators of these deeds are never in a mental state to worry/care about any preparedness of their intended victims or the consequences of their actions.

[rayjay]

What Spectragod said, same here. Its not a need, its my hobby and was even before I was a LEO.

So lets say there are no guns. He stabs his mother to death with a homemade shank because knives are no longer legal either and then drives his mother's electrically powered vehicle down the school sidewalk and kills, who knows how many???

The commonality, lunatics are loose and its difficult to stop them. That is what needs to be addressed. The rights of a few should not outweigh the safety of many.

Find Morgan Freeman's take on this on Facebook. Very insightful and daring on his part. I highly commend him for speaking the truth. :bows:

[sailsmen]

Millions who are "Mentally Ill" never commit an EVIL act.
To determine if someone is EVIL you must make judgment on them. Making judgment as pointed out above is not Politically Correct.
Rather than accept there is EVIL many will say they were mentally ill, as in it's is not their fault.
New Orleans has had an EVIL presence for a long time. Were some who have committed EVIL acts "mentally ill"? Certainly. I can assure you the vast majority who have committed EVIL acts were not "mentally ill".

The vast majority of them know right from wrong and CHOSE to commit EVIL acts with forethought and mal intent.

[rayjay]

sailsman, I agree there is evil in the world, but it sometimes goes hand in hand with mental illness. The most violent person I ever dealt with was a 18 yr old, 5'03" 105# woman. She was a complete loon, extreemly dangerous, and probably walking the streets somewhere waiting to pounce on her next victim.

[kernie]

Find Morgan Freeman's take on this on Facebook. Very insightful and daring on his part. I highly commend him for speaking the truth. :bows:

So Morgan Freeman says something you agree with, i agree with a guy on the front line Jack Straw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9748498/Connecticut-school-shootings-gun-controls-reduce-risk-of-massacres-says-Jack-Straw.html

I see nutty stuff spoken all the time on car forums, nobody has anything to say to them, i guess cause they are one of us? I dunno.

As Sailsmen said there are millions who are "mentally ill", impossible to watch\control them all, IMO.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

.............

[rayjay]

So Morgan Freeman says something you agree with, i agree with a guy on the front line Jack Straw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9748498/Connecticut-school-shootings-gun-controls-reduce-risk-of-massacres-says-Jack-Straw.html

I see nutty stuff spoken all the time on car forums, nobody has anything to say to them, i guess cause they are one of us? I dunno.

As Sailsmen said there are millions who are "mentally ill", impossible to watch\control them all, IMO.

Uhm, last I knew the UK's murder rate was up. Guns or no guns, people kill people, the instrument used is inconsequential.

[Spectragod]

As I tried to state in my post, I wasn't taking a stance on gun control/who has guns/how many; I wasn't making a statement that people with mental illnesses are the reason this stuff happens. :shake:

I just want to know why the mother had them and how the :censor: was able to get them....THAT'S ALL!


Uhhhmmmm, you asked why someone would own more than 1 gun, I answered your question.

Why does anyone have anything, because they want it. You won't know the method that was used in the killer obtaining them till the investigation is complete.

[rayjay]

As I tried to state in my post, I wasn't taking a stance on gun control/who has guns/how many; I wasn't making a statement that people with mental illnesses are the reason this stuff happens. :shake:

I just want to know why the mother had them and how the :censor: was able to get them....THAT'S ALL!

I believe we will have the answers when the investigation is finished.

She may have even got them in the divorce, they are not cheap, or ,aybe she is a shooting sports enthusiast herself. The number of women involved in the firearm sports community is growing rapidly. Companies are making and marketing items just for women.

[mike P71]

Just received this e mail looks like a very cool gesture of support

NEW YORK AUTOFEST
A CRUISE IN SUPPORT OF THE FAMILIES
OF NEWTOWN, CT


We are all shocked and terribly saddened by the horrific events in Newtown, CT. I have this unshakable urge to do something but in reflection, I realize, there is nothing any of us can really do to help the survivors and families of the victims. However, a showing of love and support could be appropriate.

I propose to organize a cruise to Newtown of at least 50 vehicles (preferably show vehicles) to simply show our support and sympathy. We could take the Port Jeff Ferry to Bridgeport and them drive North to Newtown. I propose that the first 26 vehicles in the caravan carry the name of one of the fallen, children and adults.

I first would like to see if there is interest among you to do this. I suggest we go on 12/29 or 12/30 which gives me 2 weeks to organize this. If there is interest I'll contact a local Newtown organization (Knights or Lions for example) to help us on their end. I will try and get a special porice from the Port Jeff Ferry and contact the CT highway patrol for a possible escort from Bridgeport to Newtown. Of course there will be no fee to participants other than you will need to pay your own expenses for the trip and ferry.

Club presidents and members, please pass this email on to your members.

Please get back to me ASAP so if there is enough interest I'll get to work on this.

For further information go to www.nyautofest.com, contact Leo at 516-882-5022 or leo@nyautofest.com





(IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE IMAGES IN THIS EMAIL BE SURE YOU HAVE "VIEW IMAGES" TURNED ON)


This email was sent to mja8g@hotmail.com. We are strongly against sending unsolicited emails to those who do not wish to receive our special mailings. Since you're on our list this means you've agreed to be contacted occasionally by email. This is NOT unsolicited email. If you do not wish to receive further mailings simply click on this link or reply to this email with the word REMOVE in the subject line to be immediately removed from the list. Please do not click the SPAM button, this only makes it more difficult for us to know who you are in order to remove you from the list. The most efficient method is simply to respond as instructed. We honor every removal request.

[kernie]

Uhm, last I knew the UK's murder rate was up. Guns or no guns, people kill people, the instrument used is inconsequential.

No it's way down.

The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/19/murder-rate-falls-crime-figures

[IwantmyMMnow!]

...............

[rayjay]

No it's way down.

The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/19/murder-rate-falls-crime-figures

Otae', as I qualified, last I knew. My opinion is that it has nothing what so ever to do with firearm ownership. Thats my opinion. I have seen a stick of butter used to assault a person. I made the arrest for Assault 3rd. The tool is inconsequential, its the act.

[Spectragod]

Why did the mother have multiple guns in the house and how was the :censor: shooter able to get them?

I can understand having A gun, but more than one? The demographics of the area don't lead me to believe that multiple weapons in the home are needed for protection...possibly not even one.

I've never owned a gun; I've never felt it was necessary, partly because it was prohibited (living in dorms on military base) and partly because of where I have lived. The only time I've shot a weapon was for training purposes in the military.

And before someone mis-interprets what I'm saying, no, I'm not trying to start a discussion on gun control...I just want answers to my questions.


No, you didn't answer my question....instead, you gave reasons why you have more than one gun and turned it back on me and asked why I have made mods to my car.

You immediately assumed I was implying that people shouldn't own guns.

I guess instead of posing my question on this site, I should've just waited until the investigation is complete. It's a question that's been on my mind since it was released that she had multiple guns in the house and I felt compelled to ask.

Just because someone asks a question about something doesn't automatically mean that person has an 'issue' with it, though...

Your original remarks I have highlighted for you.

My reasons are generally any other gun owners reasons, you never being a gun owner, clearly doesn't understand that.

You need to be not so thin skinned, no one is picking on you, or accusing you.

I answered the question you asked, and, gave you an analogy to go with it too.

[kernie]

Otae', as I qualified, last I knew. My opinion is that it has nothing what so ever to do with firearm ownership. Thats my opinion. I have seen a stick of butter used to assault a person. I made the arrest for Assault 3rd. The tool is inconsequential, its the act.

How do you debate someone who says, gun or a stick of butter, the tool is inconsequential?

I guess you win, :help:.

[Spectragod]

Otae', as I qualified, last I knew. My opinion is that it has nothing what so ever to do with firearm ownership. Thats my opinion. I have seen a stick of butter used to assault a person. I made the arrest for Assault 3rd. The tool is inconsequential, its the act.


Ding,ding,ding, why is this so hard to understand?:confused:

[Spectragod]

How do you debate someone who says, gun or a stick of butter, the tool is inconsequential?

I guess you win, :help:.

Your right, "we" win, anything can be used as a weapon, come on down to the states, I have some photo's I can share with you proving it to be a fact.

[kernie]

Ding,ding,ding, why is this so hard to understand?:confused:

Because a stick of butter only makes you taste better?

[DEFYANT]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/6064989-Active-shooters-in-schools-Should-teachers-be-trained-by-police-firearms-instructors/

ARM THE TEACHERS! Or any other law abiding school employee, be it the janitors or the principal!

The police are incapable of preventing these incidents. All we do is clean up the mess, then are left a mess ourselves. Put the guns where the threat is. We put sprinklers, fire exits and fire drills in school. Now we need some fire power in school!

And I am for strict gun control. Guns should not be easily accessible to anyone on a whim. But if the law abiding citizen wants one, he should he allowed to get one. Establish a similar procedure to get a drivers license! Of course the dirt ball will get one regardless, but if more of US good people were carrying, there would be less active shooters - or at least they would be taken out sooner.

[kernie]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/6064989-Active-shooters-in-schools-Should-teachers-be-trained-by-police-firearms-instructors/

ARM THE TEACHERS! Or any other law abiding school employee, be it the janitors or the principal!

The police are incapable of preventing these incidents. All we do is clean up the mess, then are left a mess ourselves. Put the guns where the threat is. We put sprinklers, fire exits and fire drills in school. Now we need some fire power in school!

And I am for strict gun control. Guns should not be easily accessible to anyone on a whim. But if the law abiding citizen wants one, he should he allowed to get one. Establish a similar procedure to get a drivers license! Of course the dirt ball will get one regardless, but if more of US good people were carrying, there would be less active shooters - or at least they would be taken out sooner.


Using the logic here we can arm them with butter!

We can even make it conceal carry butter!

[DEFYANT]

BTW school security is a joke. The doors are locked, but I ALWAYS get buzzed in without so much as a a question as to my intent!

[Spectragod]

Because a stick of butter only makes you taste better?

Your not very bright :shake:, that's a statement, not a question. Remember my offer to you before? It still stands.

[DEFYANT]

Using the logic here we can arm them with butter!

We can even make it conceal carry butter!

I'd agree, if the bad guys were using margarine. They are not. They are using guns to kill our teachers and our children!

Be a Sheep if you want. You'll be cowering behind us Sheepdogs protecting your azz from the Wolves that prey on you!

[rayjay]

How do you debate someone who says, gun or a stick of butter, the tool is inconsequential?

I guess you win, :help:.

I didn't know this was a game. I thought this was a thread on our grieving for the victims of a maniac in CT. I can't even watch the news without tearing up and I am a person who does not cry.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

...............

[kernie]

Your not very bright :shake:, that's a statement, not a question. Remember my offer to you before? It still stands.

When all else fails eh.

[PonyUP]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/6064989-Active-shooters-in-schools-Should-teachers-be-trained-by-police-firearms-instructors/

ARM THE TEACHERS! Or any other law abiding school employee, be it the janitors or the principal!

The police are incapable of preventing these incidents. All we do is clean up the mess, then are left a mess ourselves. Put the guns where the threat is. We put sprinklers, fire exits and fire drills in school. Now we need some fire power in school!

And I am for strict gun control. Guns should not be easily accessible to anyone on a whim. But if the law abiding citizen wants one, he should he allowed to get one. Establish a similar procedure to get a drivers license! Of course the dirt ball will get one regardless, but if more of US good people were carrying, there would be less active shooters - or at least they would be taken out sooner.

Sorry don't thinking arming every teacher is the answer. I don't want someone teaching my kid with a glock on their hip they picked up at a gun show with zero training and a light background check

Last I checked teachers don't always use good judgment, look how many are in prison because of sleeping with students, anything can be used as a weapon right?

Just like the answer is not take away all the guns, the answer certainly isn't arming teachets


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[rayjay]

She may have been a gun girl, period. They were owned legally. Since there are guns in my home I have trained my family on how to safely handle them and when, God forbid, they could be used. My daughter is my shooting partner, has been since she was 8, now 15. Good shot too. Loves 45acps and 5.56 NATO's.

I may be for arming some school employees, if they can demonstrate willingness and ability to act in a active shooter scenario during training. As LEOs we are trained to go to the danger while everyone else goes the other way. The responder to a active shooter can not stop to help victims. Thats how the officer in MN was shot up. He either was not trained or disregarded it. I am very thankful I never had to use the many hours of training I had in this field.

[MrBluGruv]

Guns should not be easily accessible to anyone on a whim. But if the law abiding citizen wants one, he should he allowed to get one.


Do we not all agree on this sentiment here?

Is there a single person that isn't anti-gun-ownership that thinks this wouldn't be the ideal way out of this?


I'm 100% pro-gun-ownership, but we all have to be reasonable here.


I've seen a lot of comparisons with gun ownership and auto licensing. A vehicle can be used as a deadly weapon (as with many many things), but at least the original intent of the tool isn't to do damage; even having said that though, with how dangerous a car can be, just look at how easily they give away licenses to operate them, and how flippantly people operate them on the roadways. I DO NOT WANT that attitude in someone when it comes to owning and operating a firearm.

Bottom line, I don't think it should be EASY to get a gun, but it should be FAR FROM IMPOSSIBLE.

[GAMike]

To be honest I think arming teachers brings a whole other can worms that has not been fully flushed out....

I think the reason why they call teaching a profession like they do Law Enforcement, or Firefighting is because the individual is singularly focused on those aspects of that profession.......

Asking a teacher to be both an enducational professional/first responder with lethal capabilities in most cases does not to my mind keep situations like this from happening..... What happens if a teacher pulls that gun in a typical schoolyard brawl (that I remember from my youth... Maybe different now) Again, another can of worms......

I think it comes down to a positioning of law enforcement resources and access control(s)....

But what do I know..... My older brother and his family, lived 2 towns away from this beautiful community up until 8 mos. ago..... Been through it a few times and never would have thought this kind of thing would have happened there.... Its an absolute travisty that cannot be legislated out of existance......

Managed, minimized, prevented? Hopefully........ Legislated? No way........

[guspech750]

My thoughts were this. I think it would be a good idea to have one armed guard at the schools. I also think two physically abled teachers at minimum depending on the size of the school and how many student there are, should be taught trained and armed, be it a gun or stun gun. Locked in a drawer. No one except for a few staff members would know who these properly trained teachers are. That way no students would know which teachers are the chosen ones and no one can pass judgment. Of course they should go through a yearly refresher course too. It's a great line of defense until more help arrives. It just may make a person think twice about going into a school or it may make that armed person duck for cover for a few minutes buying innocent children and teachers more time to escape.

It's no guarantee. But nothing ever is and it's better than nothing.

Also a good idea would be to have bullet resistant doors at the restrooms and all entry doors.

Also start cutting the excessive pay and get rid of all perks for superintendent and their staff. No more free cars, lavish trips, personal loans that are easily forgiven and much much more. That would generate more than enough money to pay for more security measures, books etc etc.


No amount of laws, protective measures or physical barriers is going to stop someone who is determined to commit such acts.

You can end up banning everything. Guess what. The assailant WILL find an alternative measure of getting what they want and demonstrating that. As has been done over and over through out human history.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[jerrym3]

Definition, Funk and Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary:

gun: a weapon or projectile device from which a missle is thrown by force of an explosive by compressed air, by a spring, etc.

stick of butter: (couldn't find a definition)

automobile: a four wheeled passenger vehicle that carries it's own source of power and travels on roads or streets

I think the key word above is "weapon".

Anything can become a weapon, but that's not it's intent.

The intent of a weapon is to be a weapon.

[MM2004]

This thread has become a huge disappointment to me.

:(

It's purpose was to pray for the loss of innocent children and their families and friends who are suffering as a result of this tragic event.

This has affected many people within our borders as well as abroad.

As I sit here watching the prayer vigil on TV, with our President in attendance, praying with many others thru their tears, I glance down at this thread to see more debates than prayers to the victims.

So, if you do not have the decentcy or respect to acknowledge the pain that so many people are experiencing at this time, and cannot say a prayer for them...

Refrain from sharing whatever it is you're thinking and step away from the keyboard.

Mike.

[Bluerauder]

This thread has become a huge disappointment to me.

:(

It's purpose was to pray for the loss of innocent children and their families and friends who are suffering as a result of this tragic event.

Give us a break, Mike. Everyone who has posted in this thread have exhibited major concern for the families, friends, children, and teachers impacted by this atrocity.

Everyone grieves in a different way. For some that means sitting in front of a TV and bawling your eyes out. For others it means trying to come to an understanding of how this can happen and how to prevent it from happening again. From what I have seen here .... EVERYONE is hurting. Yes, we feel for the kids and the families. We may not do it the same way you do; but it is our way to Grieve and put this terrible event behind us in some fashion.

Leave this thread alone, PLEASE.

[guspech750]

Give us a break, Mike. Everyone who has posted in this thread have exhibited major concern for the families, friends, children, and teachers impacted by this atrocity.

Everyone grieves in a different way. For some that means sitting in front of a TV and bawling your eyes out. For others it means trying to come to an understanding of how this can happen and how to prevent it from happening again. From what I have seen here .... EVERYONE is hurting. Yes, we feel for the kids and the families. We may not do it the same way you do; but it is our way to Grieve and put this terrible event behind us in some fashion.

Leave this thread alone, PLEASE.

Nicely put Charlie. Nicely put.

I don't recall anything being out of line.

I agree. Please do not close this thread.

Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[rayjay]

I don't know how we can put something this horrific behind us. I simply can not watch the news channels for any length of time. I attended a 2 year olds birthday party today and seeing all the children almost made me cry. I can't fathom how someone could be that warped. :mad2:

[Bluerauder]

I don't know how we can put something this horrific behind us. I simply can not watch the news channels for any length of time. I attended a 2 year olds birthday party today and seeing all the children almost made me cry. I can't fathom how someone could be that warped. :mad2:

I understand what you are saying Ray; but the truth is that if you can't get past this .... you will become dysfunctional and end up on medication yourself. It may take a week, it may take several weeks or even longer. For the parents and families who were directly impacted, the problem will be even greater. But you must get past the problem. It is done and there is no turning back on this incident. If it works for you, you can pray for the victims and their families ... and even pray that you can get through this. Works for me. If the TV news is a source of problem .... just don't watch for several days until this dies down in the media.

I don't see this as "warped" and maybe that is some help to me. Using the term, warped indicates to me that this person had some control over their actions and made a conscious decision to do the unspeakable. Its seems pretty clear to me that some sort of mental illness was involved. This guy's brain wasn't working properly and had short circuits or cross wiring that removed all the barriers to rationale thought. Ever had a computer do squirelly crap on you ... all by itself? It isn't evil, it isn't doing it on purpose, it's just confused and puts out bad information and executes erroneous commands. This doesn't necessarily relieve responsibility for individual actions .... but I cannot and will not believe that this shooter had full control over his faculties. Nearly every mass shooting in the past 50 years has been traced back to mental illness. Some are just rooted in pure evil. In this case, I lean toward the mental illness issue. JMHO.

[Bigdogjim]

From what I see in schools in my area there really is no way to "defend" against intruders. Design change's are needed to raise the bar in keeping kids safe.

In short no quick easy fix to the problem. We are going to need some forward thinker's to lead the way.

[rayjay]

From what I see in schools in my area there really is no way to "defend" against intruders. Design change's are needed to raise the bar in keeping kids safe.

In short no quick easy fix to the problem. We are going to need some forward thinker's to lead the way.

Yep, glass doors and windows only keep honest people out. This lunatic merely shot out the door.

Charlie, I equate warped with mental illness, regional saying I guess. Thank you for your thoughts.

[Baaad GN]

Ya know I've been reading a lot and over the last copy of days someone makes statements re mother was a school teacher etc etc only to learn it's not true! Maybe we have to give this some time to learn the facts. I don't think we will solve gun control issues here because we have a real mix of Ideals and lets face it guy's we are all set in our ways and I don't believe I'm going to change somebodies mind preaching my feelings now.
Get the facts, discuss what protections we can start, gun laws will happen or change or stay the same, none of this here will bring back these Angles!
So the few on here that still believe in God say a pray and the others do what you do
in there memory

[GAMike]

To be fair, Mike has a point...... Feeling for these families, supporting them somehow is at the moment the priority. Secondly the "active" professionals need time to review examine and compare to learn..... Then develop a preventive game plan from all sorts of perspectives.... Human Resources, architectural & design, parental involvement/support ect.....

I personally have ideas and consider myself aware and reasonably tactically equipped, but compared with someone like a Defyant or a Rayjay? I don't have a clue..... None of us should be masqarading around like we are some kind of authority when we are not. Now is not the time. Thank you Mike for refocusing this thread. We all mean well for the sakes of the those poor families, no doubt. Maybe we should just chill it down a little bit.... Me included........ Sorry that I got caught up, when I should have been more considerate in my original posting....

[jerrym3]

I teared up watching the towers come down outside our office windows, but I haven't teared up over all the other senseless murders.

This one's different.

[rayjay]

I teared up watching the towers come down outside our office windows, but I haven't teared up over all the other senseless murders.

This one's different.

Little kids, its senseless, purely evil and sickening. What the hell is this country turning into?

I'm already sick of hearing about how guns did this. A demented evil lunatic did this, a gun was just his tool, this time. Car and truck bombs do more damage. How quick we are to forget the Oklahoma City bombing.

[PonyUP]

i'm not sure why, but when I read this this morning I was particularly moved. Obviously this weekend has brought about a alrge range of emotion, as a country we try to heal, we try to come up with solutions that wil prevent this from happening again. We come together to grieve, we get heated with different sides of issues, but in the end, we all jsut want our children to be safe.
Most of you know, I am a big sports fan, which is difficult with some of the stupid things athletes do and say nowadays, but I read the below from Peter Kings column, and I really wanted to post it. Friday certainly reasserts our priorities towards that which is important, and sports becomes a very distant priority, but kudos to Victor Cruz, for not standing pat and doing what he could to help:


In my job, athletes are not very good interviews after 34-0 losses. They don't want to talk after 34-0 losses. They will find every excuse not to pick up the phone after 34-0 losses. But Sunday was different. Victor Cruz is different. This weekend was different, around the country and certainly within a short drive from Newtown, Conn., where 20 elementary school children and six women charged with teaching and protecting them were murdered.
"When I heard about the shootings,'' Cruz said from Atlanta, "I was just fighting back tears. I couldn't stop, all [Friday] night. I took my [11-month-old] daughter, grabbed her, and held her, and she slept with me Friday night. I didn't want to let her go. I don't know ... You drop your child off at school. A routine dropoff, parents do it every day. And this happens, and what can you do.''
The Giants and their ace wide receiver, Cruz, went to Atlanta to play a football game. In the hotel Saturday night, Cruz kept noticing messages on his Twitter feed. All were about someone named Jack Pinto. "Fifty, 100 tweets, right in a row, people wanting me to get in touch with the Pinto family,'' Cruz said. He found out young Jack Pinto, 6, was one of those murdered in Newtown, and Jack was a huge Victor Cruz fan, and so he asked his girlfriend and publicist, Elaina Watley, to try to find the Pintos' phone number in Newtown, and she did. At 10 p.m. Saturday, here he was, on the phone with the father, Dean Pinto, and then Jack's brother Benjamin, and then Dean again.
The conversations weren't long, because no one could talk very well.
"The father was taken aback that the message got to me,'' Cruz said. "I told him I was going to do whatever I could to honor Jack. And Jack's brother, he was very emotional, fighting back tears. He barely got any words out.''
On Sunday morning, Cruz wrote on Twitter: "Today's game is for you Jack.''
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/121217085858-victor-cruz-single-image-cut.jpg
Tami Chappell/Reuters

On one shoe, Cruz wrote in black Sharpie: "Jack Pinto My Hero." On the other, "RIP Jack Pinto."
Falcons 34, Giants 0. Cruz wishes he, and the team, could have played better. But when the family says a murdered boy may be buried in his jersey, and all Cruz wants to do is anything to make them feel better, the game is a game. Now Cruz will do something, privately, he hopes, this week for the family.
"I just want to go down there and help any way I can, if I can,'' Cruz said quietly. "It's hard to know what to do. You just have to put your faith in God and pray."
There is no way to segue to football without seeming totally crass, so forgive me. Before I do, praise to the Giants, in Atlanta, and the Jets tonight, in Nashville, for remembering Sandy Hook Elementary School on their helmets (http://nfl.si.com/2012/12/16/nfl-pays-tribute-to-victims-of-sandy-hook-school-shooting/). And to the Patriots, New England's team, for the Newtown helmet decals (right), and for sending up 26 flares honoring the school victims during a prolonged moment of silence before their game with the 49ers.
It's hard to know what to do.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121217/week-15/#ixzz2FKTbdHCl

[Bluerauder]

i'm not sure why, but when I read this this morning I was particularly moved.

+1 Me too. Instantly choked up about 1/2 way through at the "This game is for you, Jack Pinto" comment. :cry: My grandson is just 6. Its hard not to draw a connection.

[Marauderman]

The talk about removing guns is not the answer!

The answer is removing the notarity of the incident/individual . --just like a person under age --the media cannot state nor acquire their name for public dispay---so we have such a law for that --just turn it around for these type incidents--

If a person realized that there will never be any public information being made public....no names presentd nor printed in any history book--bascially, it never happen should anyone ever be involved with such incidents in the future--other than the police--who would not be allowed to let the infor of whom was involved be known---then ---we have at least done one thing that is doable and will begin anew a phase of having really completed the start of removing maybe this ever happening again..........at least it is something doable over the gun removal crap--which we all know just ain't gonna happen.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Time....

While time is an equal, standard measurement that never changes
One's perspective of it can differ greatly, either compared to others or compared to one's own

Time....

It's the equal, standard measurement that never changes
And is given credit to helping heal wounds, being able to move on in life
Or is seen as an unwanted element, causing something that we cherish to end before we want it to

Time....

An equal, standard measurement that never changes
It seems it has been dragging on forever, trying to cope with and move forward from this tragedy
Yet, my time with my kids this weekend went by quicker than in any other span of my life



Last night, I created the attached flyer. It's fairly simple and I plan to put it in the back window of my car. I don't know how long it will be there...only 'time' will tell.

Anyone is welcome to use it...

[kernie]

Little kids, its senseless, purely evil and sickening. What the hell is this country turning into?

I'm already sick of hearing about how guns did this. A demented evil lunatic did this, a gun was just his tool, this time. Car and truck bombs do more damage. How quick we are to forget the Oklahoma City bombing.


The talk about removing guns is not the answer!

The answer is removing the notarity of the incident/individual . --just like a person under age --the media cannot state nor acquire their name for public dispay---so we have such a law for that --just turn it around for these type incidents--

If a person realized that there will never be any public information being made public....no names presentd nor printed in any history book--bascially, it never happen should anyone ever be involved with such incidents in the future--other than the police--who would not be allowed to let the infor of whom was involved be known---then ---we have at least done one thing that is doable and will begin anew a phase of having really completed the start of removing maybe this ever happening again..........at least it is something doable over the gun removal crap--which we all know just ain't gonna happen.


Out of respect for the thread i will stop my anti-gun stance.

Can we stop making it a pro-gun thread?

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Out of respect for the thread i will stop my anti-gun stance.

Can we stop making it a pro-gun thread?

I think this is a resonable request...

[rayjay]

Ok, however its not even about guns. Its about a innocent children being murdered by a maniac. 20 here, 19 in Oklahoma City, in a day care for Gods sake.

[jerrym3]

I have many comments, but, lines in the sand are drawn. Nothing's going to change.

Minds are made up.

After the next incident, all the arguments on both sides will be resurrected.

(Hope I'm wrong.)

[tbone]

No it's way down.

The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/19/murder-rate-falls-crime-figures

Not pro gun, just another take on the issue.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/flashback-english-warn-us-not-to-give-up-our-guns/

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I feel bad...

I went back and re-read this thread and it appears that my question is what caused it to get off-track. I brought into this thread what needs not to be discussed; those discussions can be held in a different venue.

This thread was started to discuss the tragic event that happened and to serve as a venue to discuss our emotions/grief about the situation, not necessarily the who/what/when/where/why/how...that will come about in due time.

I really wish I would have not posed my question in this thread and I am very regretful that I did.

[kernie]

Not pro gun, just another take on the issue.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/flashback-english-warn-us-not-to-give-up-our-guns/

I have plenty of ammo on this subject but i won't be sucked back in here.

:beer:

[IwantmyMMnow!]

............

[duhtroll]

You guys don't understand teachers.

Most teachers will place themselves between a killer and their students, myself included. Our students are our kids too.

I have watched 4 of my own students buried for different reasons. Don't think for a second that I can not only remember their names (and much about who they are), but the same about every child who has been in my class room.

Most teachers will NEVER carry a gun in school, even if allowed to.

Guns in school where kids now know they are within reach, even on someone's hip or locked away will be used in the next killing spree. If they know there is a gun in the office, the office staff just became the first targets.

The solution to this does NOT involve more guns. Period.

The teachers at Sandy Hook elementary are heroes and they should be remembered as such.

This lunatic had enough ammo on him to kill many more people. How many lives were saved because the teachers knew what to do in an emergency? They locked doors, followed procedure and kept most of those kids safe - some by giving their lives so others could remove the other students from harm's way.

Pray for the kids and their families, but also this. The next time some of you open your mouths to criticize what we do and how much of a drain on society we are, remember what ELSE we do during the day to keep your children safe.

[jerrym3]

My friends and I hit the Jersey shore every now and then, grab a coffee, a few beers, stop at a McD's, and head home.

On a Saturday, McD's is loaded with kids at lunchtime. Sometime, there's a birthday party and a clown shows up.

How do we protect those kids? Arm the young girl that takes my BigMac order?

My local mall, of which my town has many, has a merry-go-round 50 ft from an entrance door. Yes, there are mall cops with guns, but who can stop a killer with an automatic weapon from dashing in and shooting up the place in just a few seconds?

On the next block is a baseball/football open playing field. Kids play there all the time in the summer.

Again, how do we protect a crowded baseball field from a crazy person with an automatic weapon and body armor?

We will not, and cannot, outlaw guns entirely, so I don't have an answer.

But if the answer is, arm everybody, the bad guys will load up on body armor because they may be crazy and sick, but they ain't stupid.

We never worried about guns when I was a schoolkid in the 1950's.

What happened?

[tbone]

The sensationalist media giving 24 hour news coverage to clinically insane psychopaths wanting to be remembered, and the internet. THAT'S what happened.

[mike P71]

Here's a true story that may place the events in Conn in perspective. My four year old son attends a pre school which is right next to a High School. Two weeks ago when I was going to pick him up in the afternoon a guy in a Mercedes cuts across three lanes of traffic and almost hits me As I'm following I see him swerve and almost hit a school bus head on. Coincidentally he pulls in to the same parking lot as I do. We get out of the cars and as I'm passing him I say "are you aware that you cut off a number of cars and almost hit a school bus" Hearing this he flys off the handle starts cursing up a storm and starts waving his arms around in the air. I then give him fair warning and tell him to calm down or something real bad is going to happen. I am now fully prepared both mentally and physically to bust his head real bad. He then calms down and walks away . After school every day I take my son to the children's library which is also on the grounds of the two schools .On thurs I see the dude as I'm having a snack with my son in the library cafeteria. He goes to the candy machine ,buys candy and starts staring at me foe about 3 min and leaves. Today he comes in to the cafeteria,buys candy and leans against the wall and pulls out a gravity knife about 5 fingers long and opens the candy with it while looking at me. I take my son to the library room and come out to confront the ******* but the dude is gone I then go to the local police station to report the incident and after fully describing the incident they tell me there is nothing they can do because he has not broken any laws. Now my big fear is that he will harm my son So in light of events this past week I notified Police Here is an excellent example of an unstable individual running loose .Believe me Iam not one to call Police (I am an ex LEO) for trivial reasons what I am now forced to do is ignore the guy (that ain't happening) or devise a way to inflict bodily harm as protection. What would you guys do

[PonyUP]

Here's a true story that may place the events in Conn in perspective. My four year old son attends a pre school which is right next to a High School. Two weeks ago when I was going to pick him up in the afternoon a guy in a Mercedes cuts across three lanes of traffic and almost hits me As I'm following I see him swerve and almost hit a school bus head on. Coincidentally he pulls in to the same parking lot as I do. We get out of the cars and as I'm passing him I say "are you aware that you cut off a number of cars and almost hit a school bus" Hearing this he flys off the handle starts cursing up a storm and starts waving his arms around in the air. I then give him fair warning and tell him to calm down or something real bad is going to happen. I am now fully prepared both mentally and physically to bust his head real bad. He then calms down and walks away . After school every day I take my son to the children's library which is also on the grounds of the two schools .On thurs I see the dude as I'm having a snack with my son in the library cafeteria. He goes to the candy machine ,buys candy and starts staring at me foe about 3 min and leaves. Today he comes in to the cafeteria,buys candy and leans against the wall and pulls out a gravity knife about 5 fingers long and opens the candy with it while looking at me. I take my son to the library room and come out to confront the ******* but the dude is gone I then go to the local police station to report the incident and after fully describing the incident they tell me there is nothing they can do because he has not broken any laws. Now my big fear is that he will harm my son So in light of events this past week I notified Police Here is an excellent example of an unstable individual running loose .Believe me Iam not one to call Police (I am an ex LEO) for trivial reasons what I am now forced to do is ignore the guy (that ain't happening) or devise a way to inflict bodily harm as protection. What would you guys do

I'd report this to school officials as well, in light of Fridays events, they will be more apt to take action.

The sad thing is, in instances like this we are left as a society to be reactive, as when they aren't breaking a law, it's difficult to be proactive.

Also talk with your son, make sure he knows who the man is, and tell him if he sees him on campus outside of your presence to notify a school official and stay far away


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Haggis]

Here's a true story that may place the events in Conn in perspective. My four year old son attends a pre school which is right next to a High School. Two weeks ago when I was going to pick him up in the afternoon a guy in a Mercedes cuts across three lanes of traffic and almost hits me As I'm following I see him swerve and almost hit a school bus head on. Coincidentally he pulls in to the same parking lot as I do. We get out of the cars and as I'm passing him I say "are you aware that you cut off a number of cars and almost hit a school bus" Hearing this he flys off the handle starts cursing up a storm and starts waving his arms around in the air. I then give him fair warning and tell him to calm down or something real bad is going to happen. I am now fully prepared both mentally and physically to bust his head real bad. He then calms down and walks away . After school every day I take my son to the children's library which is also on the grounds of the two schools .On thurs I see the dude as I'm having a snack with my son in the library cafeteria. He goes to the candy machine ,buys candy and starts staring at me foe about 3 min and leaves. Today he comes in to the cafeteria,buys candy and leans against the wall and pulls out a gravity knife about 5 fingers long and opens the candy with it while looking at me. I take my son to the library room and come out to confront the ******* but the dude is gone I then go to the local police station to report the incident and after fully describing the incident they tell me there is nothing they can do because he has not broken any laws. Now my big fear is that he will harm my son So in light of events this past week I notified Police Here is an excellent example of an unstable individual running loose .Believe me Iam not one to call Police (I am an ex LEO) for trivial reasons what I am now forced to do is ignore the guy (that ain't happening) or devise a way to inflict bodily harm as protection. What would you guys do

Shove the knife as far as you can up his a$$.

I have been away all weekend and have not been able to respond before now. The problem is not guns though a weapon is still a tool and not able to kill anyone with someone pulling the trigger. The problem is the laws of this country have become so lax that crimials can commit crimes and all they receive as a sentence is a wrist slap. We need to pass stricter sentences on crimials to fit the crime; rape = crastration; murder = execution and so forth. No more awww the poor guy is not mentally stable; no s_h_i_t Sherlock. Stop babeing crimianls and the crim rate will go down.

Maybe instead of hiring ex-LEOs or a private securty guards the school districts should hire out of work parents or have an trained armed neighborhood watch patrol the schools. No one is going to protect the students then their own parents.

[rayjay]

I'd go back to the PD and ask to see a supervisor. Unless something has changed in the my 28 month retirement, gravity knives are illegal in NYS. The mere possession is a misdeameanor criminal offense. Being an ex LEO you know what you have to see to be able to act.
Notifying the school is an excellent idea, they will act if he is bringing any kind of knife onto their grounds.

[Bluerauder]

What would you guys do?

I would scope out the area pretty well looking for his back-up. These guys tend not to like a one-on-one confrontation when there is a strong likelihood he will come out on the short end. Might be 2-to-1 or even 3-to-1 odds now that he seems to be stalking you at the library. The buddies would also be prepared to testify that "you were the aggressor" regardless of what went down. Be careful and watch your back.

[jerrym3]

With all this back and forth, I fear nothing major will be accomplished, and that just adds to the tragedy.

Unfortunately, these poor kids/teachers will be buried, the story will go off the 24/7 newscycle, we'll be celebrating the holidays, and then we'll watch the NFL playoffs and the Superbowl.

In between there will be a few snowstorms/blizzards, and then we'll be looking forward to nicer weather, baseball season, cleaning and driving our cars more, and old car shows.

Then, the cycle will repeat itself.

[mike P71]

Thanks for the great feedback. I have an appt today with the Ltd at the precinct I visited yesterday. I also have requested to view the video camera tapes from the library to see if the dude in on tape. I also intend to notify both schools. I will keep you posted on what happens today

[Ozark Marauder]

With all this back and forth, I fear nothing major will be accomplished, and that just adds to the tragedy.

Unfortunately, these poor kids/teachers will be buried, the story will go off the 24/7 newscycle, we'll be celebrating the holidays, and then we'll watch the NFL playoffs and the Superbowl.

In between there will be a few snowstorms/blizzards, and then we'll be looking forward to nicer weather, baseball season, cleaning and driving our cars more, and old car shows.

Then, the cycle will repeat itself.

How true....:agree:

OZ

[Haggis]

With all this back and forth, I fear nothing major will be accomplished, and that just adds to the tragedy.

Unfortunately, these poor kids/teachers will be buried, the story will go off the 24/7 newscycle, we'll be celebrating the holidays, and then we'll watch the NFL playoffs and the Superbowl.

In between there will be a few snowstorms/blizzards, and then we'll be looking forward to nicer weather, baseball season, cleaning and driving our cars more, and old car shows.

Then, the cycle will repeat itself.

What else do you want to happen? The world continues to spin on its axis and revolve around the Sun, life goes on. We mourn, we cry, but we do not stop our lives because some idiot decided to kill inocent children.

Evil will continue to happen in this world, you either hide and stick your head in the dirt or continue your life and be glad you have friends and family around you.

[jerrym3]

What else do you want to happen? The world continues to spin on its axis and revolve around the Sun, life goes on. We mourn, we cry, but we do not stop our lives because some idiot decided to kill inocent children.

Evil will continue to happen in this world, you either hide and stick your head in the dirt or continue your life and be glad you have friends and family around you.

Something constructive. OK?

No one says you need to stop living, but, if we keep going as-is, this will repeat.

If "life goes on" is our ultimate goal, we wouldn't have done anything after 9/11.

[Haggis]

Something constructive. OK?

No one says you need to stop living, but, if we keep going as-is, this will repeat.

If "life goes on" is our ultimate goal, we wouldn't have done anything after 9/11.

We disagree, if life did not go on and we stuck our head in the dirt, then we would have not done a thing.

[Odinson]

Just wanted to point out that NYC schools require you go through the front door, where you walk right by a NYPD cop. Every school. Even kindergarten.

Not just for nutjobs, but custody issues too. It's simple. It works. No other changes needed. Don't worry about my son.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

I would scope out the area pretty well looking for his back-up. These guys tend not to like a one-on-one confrontation when there is a strong likelihood he will come out on the short end. Might be 2-to-1 or even 3-to-1 odds now that he seems to be stalking you at the library. The buddies would also be prepared to testify that "you were the aggressor" regardless of what went down. Be careful and watch your back.

Good point ^ ^

This guy appears that he won't do anything unless he thinks he's got an advantage. He 'calmed down' in the parking lot when you confronted him about his driving 'skills'...it was just the two of you. I can only guess that he didn't have anything on him that could give him the advantage.

Then he shows up when you have your son by your side and 'shows' a knife, knowing most likely you won't do anything because he has the advantage.

The right thing to do is always the hardest because you are playing by the 'rules' and the other person isn't. This guy knows nothing is going to happen to him unless you have stone-cold proof that he is a threat. "I was just using my knife to open my candy bar" is his excuse for showing it. He is waiting for you to act against him, which will give him reason to act upon you...he's baiting you into being the 'active' agressor while he plays the role of 'passive' agressor.

I would go back to the police and explain the situation again. Express to them that this guy poses a threat to you and your son and if they would be willing to send an officer to the location, just to get another set of eyes on the guy. If they still balk at helping you out, tell them that you're trying to diffuse a potentially bad situation the right way and without their help it forces you to 'take the law into your own hands'. Document all the steps you have taken so that if, and I hope not, a confrontation ensues, you have proof that you tried to handle it correctly. Maybe try to get a pic of him with his knife? I dunno...just spit-balling here...

You are in a tough situation and I hope it resolves itself without any physical confrontation. The main reason this guy is acting this way is because he feels he's got the advantage...take that away from him.

[stevengerard]

To Mike above, there has got to be rules if not laws about a knife on school grounds. If there isn't, after Friday, there should be. Maybe that is the blessing of me living within a mile radius of one of the highest crime areas of Chicago as well as million dollar mansions - we know this could happen here so maybe we are more aware. If that happened at our high school or grade school there would be 15 leos there just waiting for him. Just two weeks ago on the same block my twins walk to their school some creep tried to abduct some girls (8:30 AM), fortunately with lots of involved parents he was caught, turned out he sexually assaulted a girl the day before on the west side of Chicago. Why was he caught here and not 6 blocks away, luck, timing, more police presence, more parents watching their kids? I don't know.

I feel there are too many hot-heads and too many people not willing to get involved now a days - two extremes. I'm all for the right to own a gun but I think there needs to be limits. People say its not the gun that kills it is the people, to me it is the ability of a gun to make it easy to kill that matters. There is a reason why we have a limit of 16-18 years of age to drive a car, and now we are starting to have graduated licenses, we are learning as a society that it is decreasing teenage deaths. Same with seat belts. Why is it a law, because if it wasn't more people wouldn't wear them. As car guys we all know stories of someone who died because of the seat belt, I know someone personally, but we all know seat-belts save more lives than not. We can argue about trucks filled with fertilizer, knifes etc. But those can be carried-on to extremes in either direction, one can kill someone with a shoelace, if determined enough I'm sure someone can create an atomic bomb (remember that great Barney Miller episode, atomic bomb?)

I kind of like the idea of concealed carry, yet I am not sure I would trust myself to be disciplined enough. if I carried and saw that guy open a candy bar with a knife, would I be smart enough and disciplined enough not to be in his face with a gun? I'd have a hard time not trying to disarm him by hand.

[jerrym3]

We disagree, if life did not go on and we stuck our head in the dirt, then we would have not done a thing.

We disagree with what?

Let me repeat.

What I did not say is that life should stop.

What I said if that if "life goes on" is our only goal, then you have simply turned the other cheek and are doomed to repeat history.

After 9/11, life went on, but, as a country, we did things to try and stop the next potential attack.

As an example, as a frequent business flier, it was one PITA. One of my first post 9/11 flights was to Washington, DC, from Newark.

I don't know if the policy has been lifted, but, due to the shortness of the flight, we could not leave our seats for any reason....any reason.

There were soldiers patrolling the terminals with slung weapons. (The last time I saw that was in the 70's in Saudi Arabia.) Soldiers and military vehicles were all around the White House perimeter.

Bottom line, changes were put into effect almost immediately, yet life went on, as it should.

[sailsmen]

Like many over 40 when I grew up we all had guns or access to guns. On a Friday afternoon a walk through the parking lot would tell you who was headed to the swamp to go hunting for the weekend because you saw the guns in the gun racks mounted in the cars.
At age 10 I brought a shotgun to school for a history class presentation. There was nothing unusual about it.
A fight was with your fists. Real men fought with their fists. When I was in HS shooting someone with a gun over a "dispute" was unheard of.

The guns are the same, it is the people that have changed.

Change the guns all you want it ain't going to change the people.

[Bluerauder]

The guns are the same, it is the people that have changed.

+1. So true. Seems like everything escalates from 0 to Killing in under 10 seconds.

[Mebot]

With all this back and forth, I fear nothing major will be accomplished, and that just adds to the tragedy.

Unfortunately, these poor kids/teachers will be buried, the story will go off the 24/7 newscycle, we'll be celebrating the holidays, and then we'll watch the NFL playoffs and the Superbowl.

In between there will be a few snowstorms/blizzards, and then we'll be looking forward to nicer weather, baseball season, cleaning and driving our cars more, and old car shows.

Then, the cycle will repeat itself.

this is correct. I went to Virginia Tech. ask me how I know.

Sent from my handheld Zack Morris iShoe 4S.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

The guns are the same, it is the people that have changed.

Change the guns all you want it ain't going to change the people.


+1. So true. Seems like everything escalates from 0 to Killing in under 10 seconds.

I've been in several lengthy discussions with a friend of mine over the past several days. He's been a great friend for me; we've been friends since the 7th grade. Helped me get through a lot of *****. He's also anti-gun. We've managed to be able to discuss our views without causing any strain on our friendship.

I ended one of our discussions yesterday with the following:

"Guns are merely a symptom; the disease (people) goes merrily on."

For those of you MASH fans, yeah I stole a line and changed some words...

Went out to do some Christmas shopping today and had 2 people comment on my flyer in the back window. Just talked about how afwul it must be for the parents of those kids as well as those acquainted with the adults that lost their lives.

[kernie]

Different views are always a good thing, since nobody wants to hear mine and the 50ish% of Americans who want tougher gun laws either are not here or dare not speak up...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

:beer:

[rayjay]

Different views are always a good thing, since nobody wants to hear mine and the 50ish% of Americans who want tougher gun laws either are not here or dare not speak up...http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

:beer:

Uhm, your reporter is misinformed. The rifle used does not even fit the correct definition of an "assault rifle". My guess is he doesn't know what AR stands for. Nor do most people. I quit reading there. Ok, I read more, 5 shots a second from a G23? More misinformation, period. 5 shots a second from a G23? I carried a G22 on duty, its big brother. I defy anyone to get off 5 shots in a second... Dribble.

The media will beat this to death to wring every ounce of camera time out of it. They should all sustain a sever beating for not leaving these people alone. Why on earth was a Syracuse tv news crew sent there? Then bother some poor guy who was grieveing. :mad2: I have stopped watching the news. Its far to sensationalized and skewed to the point they are out right lieing about who stopped the shooter in Oregon last week.

I will not go quietly into the night and become a subject instead of a citizen.

[stevengerard]

Different views are always a good thing, since nobody wants to hear mine and the 50ish% of Americans who want tougher gun laws either are not here or dare not speak up...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

:beer:

good article, that is why I wrote

"to me it is the ability of a gun to make it easy to kill that matters"

You don't think that a second after that Chief's player killed his girlfriend he didn't instantly regret it? Then he took his own life - at least it was limited to two people but none the less a tragedy, a young girl dead, a baby without parents.

"If you're wondering who else in the United States might fit a "profile" of becoming a mass killer, just look around: They are everywhere, and they're most likely harmless. FULL STORY http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/health/ct-shooting-mental-illness/index.html?hpt=hp_c1 "

[Spectragod]

Different views are always a good thing, since nobody wants to hear mine and the 50ish% of Americans who want tougher gun laws either are not here or dare not speak up...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

:beer:

You have no dog in the hunt, your not a US citizen, you have no input on our laws in our country, kinda like we have no input on what happens in Canada.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Talked to my Mom a little earlier. My sister is a teacher's assistant for special needs kids at a school in Charlotte. Today, an 8th grader brought a gun to school...:shake:

Just sharing info...

[rayjay]

Talked to my Mom a little earlier. My sister is a teacher's assistant for special needs kids at a school in Charlotte. Today, an 8th grader brought a gun to school...:shake:

Just sharing info...

Then the owner should have his azz locked up. It happens a lot more than you may think. People absolutely need to be responsible with their firearms and their storage. How you legislate that is beyond me. When you find the cure for stupid you will be a multi billionaire.

[MrBluGruv]

Different views are always a good thing, since nobody wants to hear mine and the 50ish% of Americans who want tougher gun laws either are not here or dare not speak up...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

:beer:

That writer seriously rubs me the wrong way, not specifically for his anti-gun stance, but more because of his logic train in his arguments.

This in particular bothers me:

"In other words, you pack the means to kill more than a dozen people in moments if you choose, and we just have to trust you to be sensible and hold your temper."

Frankly, I think that the sky is the limit with that logic. You are entrusted with MANY things in a functioning society that could be dangerous, that trust is how it has to work or it would be anarchy (or probably a huge leap back if some of these things were taken away as the alternative.)

Where does this guy live that apparently everyone walks around clearly displaying a piece? I live in Texas for goodness sake and even here it's not very common to outright see.

He's not even holding a consistent line in his argument; he speaks to the evils of anyone owning pretty much any weapon, but then fondly remembers the good ol' days of daddy using his weapon ol' yeller style.

Plus I find it slightly absurd that he criticizes sensationalist media and then employs the writing style that he does.


I can get behind finding the flaws in the current method for obtaining firearms and patching them for a safer society in general, but I don't think I can agree that there should be a general firearm ban. I like to think that I'm fairly objective about things, and I really haven't heard a compelling argument in favor of it.

[PonyUP]

You have no dog in the hunt, your not a US citizen, you have no input on our laws in our country, kinda like we have no input on what happens in Canada.

But he is a member of this board, if we are truly to be an open minded society, we have to accept the opinions of those we don't agree with. Whether he is an American or not, he can have an opinion, we shouldn't shut him down because he's a neighbor to the North


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[MrBluGruv]

When you find the cure for stupid you will be a multi billionaire.

I don't believe that for a second; no one would buy it on account of the fact that they would rather live in blissful ignorance than deal with the tough times in life. :lol:

[MrBluGruv]

But he is a member of this board, if we are truly to be an open minded society, we have to accept the opinions of those we don't agree with. Whether he is an American or not, he can have an opinion, we shouldn't shut him down because he's a neighbor to the North


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

+1 from me.

He isn't casting his vote in our election on the matter, he's sharing his thoughts. I don't think there is anything unreasonable or out-of-line with that.

[PonyUP]

That writer seriously rubs me the wrong way, not specifically for his anti-gun stance, but more because of his logic train in his arguments.

This in particular bothers me:

"In other words, you pack the means to kill more than a dozen people in moments if you choose, and we just have to trust you to be sensible and hold your temper."

Frankly, I think that the sky is the limit with that logic. You are entrusted with MANY things in a functioning society that could be dangerous, that trust is how it has to work or it would be anarchy (or probably a huge leap back if some of these things were taken away as the alternative.)

Where does this guy live that apparently everyone walks around clearly displaying a piece? I live in Texas for goodness sake and even here it's not very common to outright see.

He's not even holding a consistent line in his argument; he speaks to the evils of anyone owning pretty much any weapon, but then fondly remembers the good ol' days of daddy using his weapon ol' yeller style.

Plus I find it slightly absurd that he criticizes sensationalist media and then employs the writing style that he does.


I can get behind finding the flaws in the current method for obtaining firearms and patching them for a safer society in general, but I don't think I can agree that there should be a general firearm ban. I like to think that I'm fairly objective about things, and I really haven't heard a compelling argument in favor of it.

However at some point we have to draw a line. Yes you can kill a boatload of people with a car, or a knife, or other things.

But there needs to be restrictions, you tell me, in what world is it a good idea to be allowed to carry in a bar, drink 5 shots of Jack?

In Nashville this is legal. Have you seen how quick a bar argument can escalate?

I want people to own guns, I'd just like to look a little harder at who's buying them and who is living with those individuals


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Spectragod]

But he is a member of this board, if we are truly to be an open minded society, we have to accept the opinions of those we don't agree with. Whether he is an American or not, he can have an opinion, we shouldn't shut him down because he's a neighbor to the North


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Yep, he sure is, the only problem is when Kernie posts, he posts to stir the *****, not really for anything beneficial.....:rolleyes:

[MrBluGruv]

However at some point we have to draw a line. Yes you can kill a boatload of people with a car, or a knife, or other things.

But there needs to be restrictions, you tell me, in what world is it a good idea to be allowed to carry in a bar, drink 5 shots of Jack?

In Nashville this is legal. Have you seen how quick a bar argument can escalate?

I want people to own guns, I'd just like to look a little harder at who's buying them and who is living with those individuals


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


That's reasonable. I think to be carrying while intoxicated could be treated a lot like driving while intoxicated. I know that hasn't worked wonders for reducing DUI numbers, not particularly at least, but even that can come from a myriad of other factors as well. :depress:

The worst part is having to think of all these contingencies in order to write effective legislation. Is it seriously that hard for people to be responsible in their actions?

[PonyUP]

That's reasonable. I think to be carrying while intoxicated could be treated a lot like driving while intoxicated. I know that hasn't worked wonders for reducing DUI numbers, not particularly at least, but even that can come from a myriad of other factors as well. :depress:

The worst part is having to think of all these contingencies in order to write effective legislation. Is it seriously that hard for people to be responsible in their actions?

Unfortunately, today, I believe not many are willing to accept responsibility for anything. I call it the McDonalds effect. Remember the woman that sued McD's cause she burned herself on hot coffee and won?

That is a metaphor for society today


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[rayjay]

The worst part is having to think of all these contingencies in order to write effective legislation. Is it seriously that hard for people to be responsible in their actions?

You can't, and without going Stalinist you will never disarm this country. Nor do I want to live here if they manage to. Does anyone realize one of the reasons we have never been attacked militarily is because the aggressor would have to fight not just our GIs, but millions of citizens. I saw something recently that the licensed hunters in three midwestern states alone made up the 4th largest army by numbers. I didn't say gun owners, I said licensed hunters. Anyone who actually believes the government will outlaw firearms is delusional.

Kernie, we'll send them next door.

[Spectragod]

Unfortunately, today, I believe not many are willing to accept responsibility for anything. I call it the McDonalds effect. Remember the woman that sued McD's cause she burned herself on hot coffee and won?

That is a metaphor for society today


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


That is so far, the most accurate thing I have heard today...........

[stevengerard]

Unfortunately, today, I believe not many are willing to accept responsibility for anything. I call it the McDonalds effect. Remember the woman that sued McD's cause she burned herself on hot coffee and won?

That is a metaphor for society today


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Don't get me going on that stuff - i agree with you - but not accepting responsibility has been happening for hundred's of years from slavery to me growing up with priests doing way more than preaching.

I hear it all the time, when a kid gets in trouble many parents either say "not my kid" or "your being racist" or tell the kid not to say anything until they talk to a lawyer - our society has learned not to take responsibility for anything - its a shame. All I can do is try to teach my kids to be better.

I must say though I think there are many wonderful people out there and typically most people are good. 99% of people are born good The trouble is many people don't take the time to pause and think what has the other person gone through to make them who they are now.

[jerrym3]

Today's news, an 11 year old pointed a gun at a fellow student. (I believe in was in Nebraska.) Weapon was not loaded.

Heard this out of the "corner of my eye", so if I'm wrong, my apologies.

With all the press lately on guns, security, etc, how does this family let an 11 year old do this? Even if the kid did it as a joke and the gun was empty, if an armed guard or cop, especially this week, saw this kid point the gun, would he be in the right to shoot him?

Few weeks ago, in Pa, a 7 year old was killed while buckling himself up in the back of dad's car. Dad left a gun on the seat, removed the cartridge, but left a round in the chamber.

Somehow, the gun went off.

With so many people owning weapons, even a small percentage of idiots could have a major impact.

That's the big problem. There's no test for stupidity or for something even as basic as temporary rage/anger.

[kernie]

But he is a member of this board, if we are truly to be an open minded society, we have to accept the opinions of those we don't agree with. Whether he is an American or not, he can have an opinion, we shouldn't shut him down because he's a neighbor to the North


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message


+1 from me.

He isn't casting his vote in our election on the matter, he's sharing his thoughts. I don't think there is anything unreasonable or out-of-line with that.


Thanks guys.

:beer:


Yep, he sure is, the only problem is when Kernie posts, he posts to stir the *****, not really for anything beneficial.....:rolleyes:

You are entitled to your opinion on this opinion board.

:beer:

[Spectragod]

Thanks guys.

:beer:



You are entitled to your opinion on this opinion board.

:beer:

Apparently my opinion is the same as some mods on this board.

[MrBluGruv]

Thanks guys.

:beer:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you ever find yourself down Texas way, I'll buy ya a beer. :D And some of our local breweries ain't too bad if I do say so myself. ;)

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Other points I brought up during one of my discussions with my friend...

We have laws that prohibit drugs...do we still have people dying from drugs?
We have laws that prohibit drinking and driving...do we still have people dying from drunk drivers?
We tried to outlaw alcohol...didn't work; it went 'underground', just like guns would if they were outlawed.

What is the common thread that poses the threat in all of the above? People; it's not the crackpipe, it's not the vehicle, it's not the alcohol. Inanimate objects cannot sway a person into using them; the person has to make the decision to lay his hands on them.

Having 'good' laws is only a piece of the puzzle...what point is it to have 'good' laws if they are not enforced properly or if the punishment isn't harsh enough to deter people from breaking them?

[Spectragod]

Today's news, an 11 year old pointed a gun at a fellow student. (I believe in was in Nebraska.) Weapon was not loaded.

Heard this out of the "corner of my eye", so if I'm wrong, my apologies.

With all the press lately on guns, security, etc, how does this family let an 11 year old do this? Even if the kid did it as a joke and the gun was empty, if an armed guard or cop, especially this week, saw this kid point the gun, would he be in the right to shoot him?

Few weeks ago, in Pa, a 7 year old was killed while buckling himself up in the back of dad's car. Dad left a gun on the seat, removed the cartridge, but left a round in the chamber.

Somehow, the gun went off.

With so many people owning weapons, even a small percentage of idiots could have a major impact.

That's the big problem. There's no test for stupidity or for something even as basic as temporary rage/anger.

To answer your question, if an LEO saw the 11YO point a gun @ someone, and if that 11 YO didn't follow commands or they felt another life was in danger, then the correct response is to neutralize the threat.

As far as the gun in the back seat, how can you remove the cartridge and there still be a round in the chamber, if that is what the news said, then that is part of the problem.

A week or so ago, a county south of me, a 17YO "teenager" decided to hold up a gas station with a gun (BB gun), most unfortunate for him, the owner came out of the back room with a shotgun and shot him dead, no charges filed, the BB gun looked like a real gun.

Had it had been real, and he pulled off the robbery, instead of leaving, sometimes they decide to leave no witness's, saw that at a pawn shop in town earlier this year.

We can debate this forever and never get anywhere. There are a lot of guns in the U.S., banning them won't fix anything, I think a mandatory gun owner IQ test is in order, and start making people responsible for their own actions would be a good start. And instead of releasing people committing crimes, how about actually making the stay miserable, i.e. chain gangs, breaking rocks, etc.....

[kernie]

Apparently my opinion is the same as some mods on this board.


I'm sure said mods can speak for themselves. I have the highest respect for them and will moderate my behavior if ever asked.

:beer:


I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you ever find yourself down Texas way, I'll buy ya a beer. :D And some of our local breweries ain't too bad if I do say so myself. ;)

Thanks, if i ever do make it down that way i will take you up on that offer!

:beer:

[guspech750]

People are the problem. I'm a big fan of target shooting. There needs to be more stringent background checks. Mentally I'll people need to be reported so that they are know to be mentally I'll when a background check is done. Funding for treating the mentally ill needs to be reinstated and increased instead of going to countries overseas that hate us. Making our current laws stricter, more punishable. No more plea bargains for criminals or anyone for that matter.

In the end, people are the problem. Always has been. Always will be. End people and the problems will end. :)


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[rayjay]

To answer your question, if an LEO saw the 11YO point a gun @ someone, and if that 11 YO didn't follow commands or they felt another life was in danger, then the correct response is to neutralize the threat.

As far as the gun in the back seat, how can you remove the cartridge and there still be a round in the chamber, if that is what the news said, then that is part of the problem.

A week or so ago, a county south of me, a 17YO "teenager" decided to hold up a gas station with a gun (BB gun), most unfortunate for him, the owner came out of the back room with a shotgun and shot him dead, no charges filed, the BB gun looked like a real gun.

Had it had been real, and he pulled off the robbery, instead of leaving, sometimes they decide to leave no witness's, saw that at a pawn shop in town earlier this year.

We can debate this forever and never get anywhere. There are a lot of guns in the U.S., banning them won't fix anything, I think a mandatory gun owner IQ test is in order, and start making people responsible for their own actions would be a good start. And instead of releasing people committing crimes, how about actually making the stay miserable, i.e. chain gangs, breaking rocks, etc.....

I guess we of the thin blue line all think a like. They'll bring back the assault weapons ban in some form or another, the murders will continue unabated. People will continue to kill people if they have to use rocks. Thats just the way it is. If not a Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite, Mossberg, you name it, then a car or truck bomb. The tool is irrelevant, we have gone too far down a unrepairable road in this country. I suppose some blue ribbon panel of educated idiots piled higher and deeper will make nonsensical recommendations that those of us in the real world look at and say WTF?

In the mean time the people of that Ct town won't care, they are too busy trying to mourn their loss and dodge, cough, journalists... :shake:

[sailsmen]

... I suppose some blue ribbon panel of educated idiots piled higher and deeper will make nonsensical recommendations that those of us in the real world look at and say WTF?....

The ORACLE has foretold the TRUTH!

[IwantmyMMnow!]

With all the 'freebies', 2nd/3rd/4th/umpteenth chances given to our citizens, we have taken on the mindset of, "Ask not what I can do for my country, but what my country can do for me."

Who has the power to change this?

WE, THE PEOPLE....

[mike P71]

Regarding my situation in the library with my son ,two developments today. First I got he guys plate number and through sources I now know all about him. This is my ace in the hole which I hope I never have to use. Second I had a great talk with the Ltd at he precinct and we worked out a procedure where an officer will be called tomorrow to confront and question him. Hopefully this will scare him off If not then we will see . One of the things that makes this forum great is the comraderie and support. Thanks much for the feedback

[duhtroll]

The car and knife argument is ridiculous. Can we put that one away?

The killer, armed with a car would not have made it into the school. Even if he had waited until recess, he most likely could not have run over 26 people and suicide would have been difficult after.

The killer, armed with a knife would not have obtained entry to the building and even if so would have killed significantly fewer people before being wrestled to the ground.

The killer, armed with handguns only and fewer rounds to be spent so rapidly, likely would have killed fewer people.

The killer, armed with a bomb, could have killed more people but at least would have had to make some actual effort building said bomb and may have had to do more than shoot his mother in the face to obtain the material. It also would have given him time to reflect, perhaps, or be discovered.

The issue is speed and availability, not the existence of guns themselves.

EDIT: Add the armed guard scenario. The armed guard has much more of a chance against someone wielding a handgun vs. an AR-15.

[sailsmen]

Regarding my situation in the library with my son ,two developments today. First I got he guys plate number and through sources I now know all about him. This is my ace in the hole which I hope I never have to use. Second I had a great talk with the Ltd at he precinct and we worked out a procedure where an officer will be called tomorrow to confront and question him. Hopefully this will scare him off If not then we will see . One of the things that makes this forum great is the comraderie and support. Thanks much for the feedback

Keep in mind if he is as you say he is he will not hesitate to lie and if he is familiar with the system use it against you. Be prepared to respond to this -"He cut me off, followed me into the parking lot, approached and threatened me. He followed me and is continuing to stalk me".

[Spectragod]

The car and knife argument is ridiculous. Can we put that one away?

The killer, armed with a car would not have made it into the school. Even if he had waited until recess, he most likely could not have run over 26 people and suicide would have been difficult after.

The killer, armed with a knife would not have obtained entry to the building and even if so would have killed significantly fewer people before being wrestled to the ground.

The killer, armed with handguns only and fewer rounds to be spent so rapidly, likely would have killed fewer people.

The killer, armed with a bomb, could have killed more people but at least would have had to make some actual effort building said bomb and may have had to do more than shoot his mother in the face to obtain the material. It also would have given him time to reflect, perhaps, or be discovered.

The issue is speed and availability, not the existence of guns themselves.

EDIT: Add the armed guard scenario. The armed guard has much more of a chance against someone wielding a handgun vs. an AR-15.

And your experience in this field is............?

Your living in a dream world, you need to look at facts instead of what the news media is telling you.

[duhtroll]

Or how about I have worked in schools for the last 21 years - since I don't watch any "media" I'm wondering what you're referring to. Nothing I said is in dispute unless you can give valid reasons how a Cadillac could have killed those 20 kids/6 staff members.

I own guns. I shoot guns. I won't carry one at school.

Surveyed the staff over lunch. Only two teachers would volunteer to carry if they were allowed. Both of them are avid Rush listeners. Go figure.




And your experience in this field is............?

Your living in a dream world, you need to look at facts instead of what the news media is telling you.

[jerrym3]

And your experience in this field is............?

Your living in a dream world, you need to look at facts instead of what the news media is telling you.

It's not what the media is telling us.

It's what common sense is telling us.

How many Oklahoma Cities have we had?

Mass killings by knife?

Sure, anything can be used as a weapon, but it would be silly to say "how come we don't outlaw rocks, clothes line, hardcover books, and adjustable wrenches?"

The argument I'm hearing is "you can't stop these nutbags 100% of the time, so why bother at all?"

Today, that just doesn't work for most people. Maybe seven days ago, but not today.

[Bigdogjim]

Mass killings by knife?



Actually by box cutter Sept.11, 2001 2,997 people and 4 jets highjacked over American sky's all with a simple box cutter.

[duhtroll]

So what was Flight 93, then? The terrorists with their box cutters were overtaken by passengers who were unarmed.

As long as we are taking stuff that doesn't matter and bringing it into the discussion...


Actually by box cutter Sept.11, 2001 2,997 people and 4 jets highjacked over American sky's all with a simple box cutter.

[sailsmen]

I have a far greater fear of my children being enslaved by a dictatorial government then being killed at school. Why is my fear greater, because based on History that is the more likely threat.

The action and firing speed of an AR-15 is the same as is ~75% of the guns in the USA. The focus on the gun is a distraction to allow another step towards tyranny.

I will never, ever forget awakening in the middle of the night as a child to the dog barking, my mom screaming and father yelling stop or I will shoot. A drug crazed maniac had broken into our house. My father held him with his M1 Carbine until the police arrived.

32,000 people a year are killed in Autos that are required to be built to Gov't safety standards and are operated by people licensed by the Gov't. On average 51 people a year are killed by Lightning.

300,000 Federal Laws of which 4,600 are in the Criminal Code. I think the problem is way too many laws.


I say the Federal Gov't should pass a law requiring all who believe in gun free zones to display a symbol designating same on their person, home, vehicle and place of work. This way the criminals will know where to go and I will know where not to go.

A gun free zone is a shooting gallery for those of EVIL intent.

[PonyUP]

I have a far greater fear of my children being enslaved by a dictatorial government then being killed at school. Why is my fear greater, because based on History that is the more likely threat.

The action and firing speed of an AR-15 is the same as is ~75% of the guns in the USA. The focus on the gun is a distraction to allow another step towards tyranny.

I will never, ever forget awakening in the middle of the night as a child to the dog barking, my mom screaming and father yelling stop or I will shoot. A drug crazed maniac had broken into our house. My father held him with his M1 Carbine until the police arrived.

32,000 people a year are killed in Autos that are required to be built to Gov't safety standards and are operated by people licensed by the Gov't. On average 51 people a year are killed by Lightning.

300,000 Federal Laws of which 4,600 are in the Criminal Code. I think the problem is way too many laws.


I say the Federal Gov't should pass a law requiring all who believe in gun free zones to display a symbol designating same on their person, home, vehicle and place of work. This way the criminals will know where to go and I will know where not to go.

A gun free zone is a shooting gallery.

Just curious, so gun owners are never victims of crimes?

The thought that owning a gun will prevent you from being the victim of a crime is ludicrous

Evil will happen no matter what, the only way to stop it is to be brave in the face of it, I can do that with or without a gun

I've asked this before, but the pro gun people on this site haven't answered, and I'd like to hear their take

Shouldn't it be more difficult to get a gun than walking into a gun show, flashing my drivers license and walking out with a gun?

No one is trying to take away your guns, because it won't happen

This bill they are talking about is ridiculous, reduce magazines from 18-15 bullets, won't make a difference

Ban AR 15s? Something will replace it

How about a mandatory training program, extensive background search, medical and mental history, and have to requalify every 3 years

Law abiding carriers should care less about this, because they'll pass, if you can't pass then maybe you shouldn't own a gun

Using the car analogy, you have to pass a test to get the license, after school, and retest as you get older

Also the car analogy doesn't hold water, people get into accidents for many reasons, liquor, road conditions, blowouts and stupid.

Last I heard no body slipped on the ice and killed themselves with a gun


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[kernie]

Last I heard no body slipped on the ice and killed themselves with a gun


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

This tragedy is close.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-gun-parking-lot-killing-7-year-old-son-article-1.1216076

[rayjay]

No mention made of anything other than gun control by Mr. Obama today. I guess mental health and violent video games being mentioned by almost everyone eluded him. Seems I was misled, NPR decided not to report the rest of the story. I guess it did not fit their agenda.

School teachers are not police officers. I have serious issues with them being responsible to take down a active shooter especially enlight of their involvement with the possible victims. They would need to respond IMMEDIATELY, not after saving their own class. There is no time for victims with a active shooter loose. A cop in MN learned that the hard way. We had one sole mission. Remove the threat. The horrified faces of education administrators from schools and colleges that attended a tabletop exercise I participated in was very telling. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. You do not train just once.

[Spectragod]

Or how about I have worked in schools for the last 21 years - since I don't watch any "media" I'm wondering what you're referring to. Nothing I said is in dispute unless you can give valid reasons how a Cadillac could have killed those 20 kids/6 staff members.

I own guns. I shoot guns. I won't carry one at school.

Surveyed the staff over lunch. Only two teachers would volunteer to carry if they were allowed. Both of them are avid Rush listeners. Go figure.

Ironically, I've been an LEO for 21 years, How can a Cadillac kill 20+ people, drive it up the sidewalk when school is letting out.

Since only Rush listeners are willing to put their lives out there for you, I would take a pass, I'd just line up for the slaughter.

PonyUp had a good suggestion, you can add fields to you license, after going through a battery of mental health tests, shooting courses, safety courses and background tests, then you can buy a firearm, you can add to it as well, to make it a concealed weapons permit as well.

But, you will also have to start taking the law serious and punish those who break it as opposed to the slap on the wrist that most get.

[CWright]

I sold all of mine! :D

[MOTOWN]

I sold all of mine! :D

Errrrr I would have spent all my money at that sale!

[CWright]

Errrrr I would have spent all my money at that sale!


;).........

[jerrym3]

[QUOTE=Spectragod;1247503]To answer your question, if an LEO saw the 11YO point a gun @ someone, and if that 11 YO didn't follow commands or they felt another life was in danger, then the correct response is to neutralize the threat.

As far as the gun in the back seat, how can you remove the cartridge and there still be a round in the chamber, if that is what the news said, then that is part of the problem.

I did not present the story accurately. My error.

Seems his father accidentally shot him.

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7loZUtJQH0gA4UBXNyoA; _ylu=X3oDMTE2bWgydGpzBHNlYwNzc gRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA01 TWUMwMDFfMTI5/SIG=12rp1d37v/EXP=1355989657/**http%3a//thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/147865/7yearold_shot_to_death_in

[duhtroll]

OK. Question for you. Put your uniform on for this.

I am a civilian. I ask you, "if I am present at a public mass shooting, the police have been called and I have a choice whether to run away, hide or pull my sidearm and start shooting at the perp while innocents are present, what do you suggest I do?"

What is your department's official policy on telling civilians what to do in this case?

Oh, and 20 people killed by a car? How many times has that happened in the US? Intentionally? OR do people choose something much easier and more effective?

Understand I am only after two things here.
1) elimination of the lack of background checks for gun permits/purchases / eliminating the gun show loophole
2) A ban on large magazines

A cogent argument for why any US citizen needs either of those things does not exist.



Ironically, I've been an LEO for 21 years, How can a Cadillac kill 20+ people, drive it up the sidewalk when school is letting out.

Since only Rush listeners are willing to put their lives out there for you, I would take a pass, I'd just line up for the slaughter.

PonyUp had a good suggestion, you can add fields to you license, after going through a battery of mental health tests, shooting courses, safety courses and background tests, then you can buy a firearm, you can add to it as well, to make it a concealed weapons permit as well.

But, you will also have to start taking the law serious and punish those who break it as opposed to the slap on the wrist that most get.

[MOTOWN]

Ive read this thread and tried to remain silent! The bottom line is this not a gun control issue those who do mass destruction with guns either buy them legally before going crazy ,or break into someone's house and steals them!
Reducing magazine capacity is another feel good fix for dummies it won't change a thing, just the need to carry an extra mag or two or three!
As for schools we simply do not live in a society where you can just walk in freely!
Schools need to be locked down with armed gaurds or police officers as this type of terrorist attack will happen again if we don't make changes today!

[rayjay]

"I am a civilian. I ask you, "if I am present at a public mass shooting, the police have been called and I have a choice whether to run away, hide or pull my sidearm and start shooting at the perp while innocents are present, what do you suggest I do?"


Have you been trained or did you just buy a gun? If you were trained you know the answer. If you are not trained, leave the guns home.

A citizen stopped the mall shooting in Oregon last week, not the police. The active shooter profile says they pick a soft target, expect no resistance and usually commit sucide when confronted. A off duty Deputy shoot a potentential mass murder last night. Unfortunately the police did not arrive in time to save 27 people in Newtown. But their response saved an unknown number more.

There are many answers, gun control is only a component. A ban on AR type rifles? Worthless. Smack a few people while they grow up, priceless.

Forgot, the car killings, they've happened, just not on a large scale, yet. Not sexy enough for the media.

[rayjay]

Kernie? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html#ixzz2FXGd2t8Z

[Leadfoot281]

We already know how to stop school shootings.

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2012/12/19/we-know-how-to-stop-school-shootings-n1470804


http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss335/1911Kimber/MISC/gun-control.jpg

"If guns kills people, mine must be defective." ~ Ted Nugent.

[rayjay]

We already know how to stop school shootings.

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2012/12/19/we-know-how-to-stop-school-shootings-n1470804


http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss335/1911Kimber/MISC/gun-control.jpg

"If guns kills people, mine must be defective." ~ Ted Nugent.

Yep, our illustrious governor is calling for a "special session" of our legislature and senate next week. He wants to further tighten the most restrictive gun laws in the country already. Pure politics... and people ask why we are moving to SC. Get a friggin clue.

[jerrym3]

I put some lights on the back deck this afternoon.

About a block away is a grammar school. Kids were outside (decent weather day in NJ), and I could hear, as corny as it may sound, the laughter of little children.

Got a bit choked up.

Who's going to protect these kids?

Arm the principal/teachers, but what happens when the kids get on the schoolbus?

Arm the drivers?

My retired friend drives a schoolbus. He's just about to hit the age of 71. (I'm almost 70.)

We do not have the reflexes of a 45 year old. That's a fact of old age.

I exercise regularly, lift weights, walk 5 miles or ride an indoor bike for 40 minutes, but, I'm still 70. Nothing I can do about that.

We're old, and we'd still do everything we can to protect innocents, but, the key words here are "everything we can".

I hope it never happens.

[rayjay]

I put some lights on the back deck this afternoon.

About a block away is a grammar school. Kids were outside (decent weather day in NJ), and I could hear, as corny as it may sound, the laughter of little children.

Got a bit choked up.

Who's going to protect these kids?

Arm the principal/teachers, but what happens when the kids get on the schoolbus?

Arm the drivers?

My retired friend drives a schoolbus. He's just about to hit the age of 71. (I'm almost 70.)

We do not have the reflexes of a 45 year old. That's a fact of old age.

I exercise regularly, lift weights, walk 5 miles or ride an indoor bike for 40 minutes, but, I'm still 70. Nothing I can do about that.

We're old, and we'd still do everything we can to protect innocents, but, the key words here are "everything we can".

I hope it never happens.

Thats pretty damn good for 70. :up: Hell, I'm fallin apart at 57. :(

[duhtroll]

A citizen stopped the mall shooting in Oregon last week, not the police. .

Uh, no, he didn't. HE didn't do anything other than effectively say "yeah, the killer saw me with a gun so he decided to kill himself."

Proximity does not grant causality.

And since Ann Coulter has made it here to be considered an "expert" on something other than which brand of tinfoil to use for the hats...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings

I don't agree with everything in the above article, but it raises some good points.

[duhtroll]

Columbine had an armed security guard with another nearby. That is the worst school shooting on record. For how long, is the question.

Reducing magazine capacity makes the shooter reload more often and therefore reduces innocent deaths. Because...math.

There is nothing for "dummies" about not wanting 30+ round magazines available for non-military personnel. It is simple logic.


Ive read this thread and tried to remain silent! The bottom line is this not a gun control issue those who do mass destruction with guns either buy them legally before going crazy ,or break into someone's house and steals them!
Reducing magazine capacity is another feel good fix for dummies it won't change a thing, just the need to carry an extra mag or two or three!
As for schools we simply do not live in a society where you can just walk in freely!
Schools need to be locked down with armed gaurds or police officers as this type of terrorist attack will happen again if we don't make changes today!

[rayjay]

Uh, no, he didn't. HE didn't do anything other than effectively say "yeah, the killer saw me with a gun so he decided to kill himself."

Proximity does not grant causality.

And since Ann Coulter has made it here to be considered an "expert" on something other than which brand of tinfoil to use for the hats...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings

I don't agree with everything in the above article, but it raises some good points.

He drew down on him, but did not shoot as he did not have a safe shot, whereby the scum went around the corner and croaked himself. Perfect fit for the active shooter model. Cowards, period. Thats according to local newspaper. Keep eating the fodder your fed by the national media.

[rayjay]

Columbine had an armed security guard with another nearby. That is the worst school shooting on record. For how long, is the question.

Reducing magazine capacity makes the shooter reload more often and therefore reduces innocent deaths. Because...math.

There is nothing for "dummies" about not wanting 30+ round magazines available for non-military personnel. It is simple logic.

Actually it was a police officer that followed the department procedure as it was then written. He retreated to parking lot awaiting backup, IIRC. That would never happen today under current training and doctrine. Somebody taking out the active shooter reduces casualities. Harden the target and they move on.
Quite frankly I have never seen so much disinformation fed to the public as I have after this tragedy. We still allow 30 people per day (CDC stat) to be killed by intoxicated drivers in this country. Why is that?

[MOTOWN]

Columbine had an armed security guard with another nearby. That is the worst school shooting on record. For how long, is the question.

Reducing magazine capacity makes the shooter reload more often and therefore reduces innocent deaths. Because...math.

There is nothing for "dummies" about not wanting 30+ round magazines available for non-military personnel. It is simple logic.

Yeah ok you have no clue! but ok:bs:

[jerrym3]

When I think of sll the brave men and women that died for this country so that this SOB could have access to a legal military weapon owned legally by his mother, and used that weapon of mass destruction to kill 20 little kids.............

I just don't understand.

And the answer is, arm the schools? Great, if we're back in the 1800's, and schools consist of one big room.

And, disregard the schoolbuses, playgrounds, public ballfields, merry go rounds in malls.....just arm the schools?

I don't know.

I look at the pictures of Muslims jumping up and down in the streets, all waving their rifles over their heads, and I think, aren't we better than that? Is that what the USA has lowered itself to?

Go ahead, jump all over me if it makes you feel good. I really don't care. Someone needs to talk sense.

[rayjay]

When I think of sll the brave men and women that died for this country so that this SOB could have access to a legal military weapon owned legally by his mother, and used that weapon of mass destruction to kill 20 little kids.............

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

[Spectragod]

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

And why should Bloomberg have any say in what happens across the U.S.? He should worry why HIS city has so much gun violence, when you cannot legally own a gun in that city, without going through major hoops and $$$ to back it up.

But your right, the semi autos are not assault weapons, just because the look like one, that is usually the only similarity. Just as parts off an Israeli Uzi won't transfer to an Uzi in the states, 2 completely different weapons, people buy these to collect, shoot for fun, in competition etc.,

I want an explanation of the 2 shooters that were originally reported, multiple times....... I have a theory, just won't post it here, I can't wait to see what the media spin is though.

[jerrym3]

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

Guess we're hearing different information, and I apologize for using wrong terminolgy regarding his choice of weapon, because we all know that that's the most important issue here, not how we'll guard kids in schoolbuses or playgrounds or anywhere where we don't have an armed guard.

I read he used the semi in the school, and a rifle was found in his trunk.

How did these innocent kids get shot as much as 11 times with handguns?

And, had there been another possible shooter, the statewide/nationwide search would be on every news outlet known to man to warn others that a killer is on the loose.

I believe there was one killer who did this, and one alone. But, with the legal weapon he had, he did the work of many.

I'm sure you know many people that you would not trust with your Marauder, yet it's OK for them to own a weapon?

Where's the logic in that?

[PonyUP]

And why should Bloomberg have any say in what happens across the U.S.? He should worry why HIS city has so much gun violence, when you cannot legally own a gun in that city, without going through major hoops and $$$ to back it up.

But your right, the semi autos are not assault weapons, just because the look like one, that is usually the only similarity. Just as parts off an Israeli Uzi won't transfer to an Uzi in the states, 2 completely different weapons, people buy these to collect, shoot for fun, in competition etc.,

I want an explanation of the 2 shooters that were originally reported, multiple times....... I have a theory, just won't post it here, I can't wait to see what the media spin is though.

I agree there is still a lot to learn, most of which we will probably never hear. At the end of the day, the answer can't be more guns, just like the answer to all our economic problems can't be cut taxes.

There is too little research and background done on people buying guns. I will submit once again, that a law abiding citizen purchasing a gun should not care how deep we want to dig. It should be a challenge to buy a gun, but a breeze if you are a person that should own one.
Per an article I read in the tribune, geographically the south owns the highest percentage of legal weapons, and yet New Orleans, Nashville, and Atlanta still have high crime rates.
Everyone can get a drivers license, doesn't mean everyone should drive. I've seen some of the most idiotic actions of drivers take place since I moved to Atlanta, now picture these sane idiots have a gun, get loaded at a bar with their gun, I'm sure a whole lot of good can come from that.

The current bill being proposed is crap, and Ray, I heard the same reports he just used the hand guns

Mandatory training, continual qualification, deep background checks including medical and mental history of proposed owner and the immediate family.
Will it prevent this? No, does it help keep guns away from people who should not be buying them?maybe

At the end of the day, the country is crying for something to be done, politically speaking bring pro gun right now is suicide. Producing another bill to reduce mags and restrict rifles, no teeth, but you look proactive to your constituents.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[rayjay]

jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen. :rolleyes:

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

[PonyUP]

jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen. :rolleyes:

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

Well put Ray, everyone wants an answer, I guess the truth is, there isn't one


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[GAMike]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but couldn't.. In support of Ray's comments below, I would Two more things..... What about incidents where armed law abiding citizens have inserted themselves in situations and thwarted a crime/saved someones life????

Again the media never covers these situations with the same ferocity as they do, daily gun related violence that happens in every city in this country.

Second point.... The south as Ponyup has pointed out has more registered gun owners per capita...... Yet Chicago (& Gary), The "D", D.C./Baltimore, Oakland, L.V., STL. Are not in the south.... Sure we have N.O., ATL, Memphis, Miami+++ What does all this mean? In states/cities where there are very strict gun ordinances, there are still too many people being wounded/killed with guns......... The numbers don't really matter, because its beyond ridiculous..... Life is cheap these days... Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart, legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument.

The real question for America...... How do we as a society prove the value of every human life, and how do we get young people to believe the life of another human is invaluable and sacred???? Gun legislation won't matter if this question is ever answered and communicated by the media, educators and parents..... JMHO.... Sorry for the vent... Just an opinionated concealed carry guy frustrated by a media fed society that lacks a worthy & honorable "code" between people(s). Maybe One day we will get there.... It certainly won't be legislated thats for sure....


jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen. :rolleyes:

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

[Ladyhawke]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but couldn't.. In support of Ray's comments below, I would Two more things..... What about incidents where armed law abiding citizens have inserted themselves in situations and thwarted a crime/saved someones life????

Again the media never covers these situations with the same ferocity as they do, daily gun related violence that happens in every city in this country.

Second point.... The south as Ponyup has pointed out has more registered gun owners per capita...... Yet Chicago (& Gary), The "D", D.C./Baltimore, Oakland, L.V., STL. Are not in the south.... Sure we have N.O., ATL, Memphis, Miami+++ What does all this mean? In states/cities where there are very strict gun ordinances, there are still too many people being wounded/killed with guns......... The numbers don't really matter, because its beyond ridiculous..... Life is cheap these days... Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument.

The real question for America...... How do we as a society prove the value of every human life, and how do we get young people to believe the life of another human is invaluable and sacred???? Gun legislation won't matter if this question is ever answered and communicated by the media, educators and parents..... JMHO.... Sorry for the vent... Just an opinionated concealed carry guy frustrated by a media fed society that lacks a worthy & honorable "code" between people(s). Maybe One day we will get there.... It certainly won't be legislated thats for sure....

Thank you, Mike.

[rayjay]

Spot on Mike. Someone please show me anyplace in the second Amendment where it mentions sportsman or hunting.

We need a combination of things to happen to avert tragedies like Newtown. I fear that the demonized gun will be the only issue. If that is the case, another Newtown will happen. Its just a matter of where and when.

We are not being told the truth here. IIRC one of the victims was shot 31 times. Thats a rage killing, plain and simple. Why? What did these poor kids do to this monster? Did he think they would just pop right back up and reset?

[Spectragod]

Spot on Mike. Someone please show me anyplace in the second Amendment where it mentions sportsman or hunting.

We need a combination of things to happen to avert tragedies like Newtown. I fear that the demonized gun will be the only issue. If that is the case, another Newtown will happen. Its just a matter of where and when.

We are not being told the truth here. IIRC one of the victims was shot 31 times. Thats a rage killing, plain and simple. Why? What did these poor kids do to this monster? Did he think they would just pop right back up and reset?

Going to happen again, and it did today, 4 firefighters shot at a fire they were responding to, of course, this may not be tragic to everyone like small children. So lets see...... all the sheeple are feeling so sorry for the kids and the teachers that were shot, now they are voluntarily turning their guns over to the local and state police, really?

Do they figure they are going to go out and shoot some kids? I wonder what these sheeple are going to do when crime comes knocking on their door, unable to protect themselves, they will call the police and wait, I'm guessing that the police will be overwhelmed with calls and response time will be a memory of what it used to be.

We need to straighten out all the nut jobs that are on the loose, dump all the violent video games, violent tv shows, violent movies, put God back into this country, or it will only go down the drain even more.

I won't even get into late term ********................:mad2: No tragedy there, were more worried about guns as opposed to actual murder. :shake:

[GAMike]

So I am not religious per se', but I understand the necessary balance it offers to a fragile mind. I don't mean this as an insult. I beleive in God..... I somewhat disdain organized religion as it panders for funds to continue its preachings. That being said, I understand the balance it provides for people who may othewise come unhinged in its absense.......

Whatever the pressure that keeps people from doing the unthinkable, Christian religion in modern times is One of the greatest barriers to evil, because it offers a "compass" of sorts. It checks its own to a greater degree..... Mainstream Muslims seem to be peaceful, but how vigilant are they with extremists in their midst?

Anywho, as a society, we owe it to our fellow neighbors and citizens to hold up a "standard" of acceptable behaviour. If the basis of that comes from religion? Great..... If it comes from parental teachings? Ok.... More often than not, it comes from a cocktail of both+++. The least of which is Govt who wants to appear pious and rightious, but is anything but protective of their own ability to source/retain power.......

Lets open our eyes, to who protects our individual person, and how we can ea. aid/protect ea. other daily. I am my brothers/neighbors/friends keeper.... Are you????

Merry Christmas!:beer:

[Spectragod]

So I am not religious per se', but I understand the necessary balance it offers to a fragile mind. I don't mean this as an insult. I beleive in God..... I somewhat disdain organized religion as it panders for funds to continue its preachings. That being said, I understand the balance it provides for people who may othewise come unhinged in its absense.......

Whatever the pressure that keeps people from doing the unthinkable, Christian religion in modern times is One of the greatest barriers to evil, because it offers a "compass" of sorts. It checks its own to a greater degree..... Mainstream Muslims seem to be peaceful, but how vigilant are they with extremists in their midst?

Anywho, as a society, we owe it to our fellow neighbors and citizens to hold up a "standard" of acceptable behaviour. If the basis of that comes from religion? Great..... If it comes from parental teachings? Ok.... More often than not, it comes from a cocktail of both+++. The least of which is Govt who wants to appear pious and rightious, but is anything but protective of their own ability to source/retain power.......

Lets open our eyes, to who protects our individual person, and how we can ea. aid/protect ea. other daily. I am my brothers/neighbors/friends keeper.... Are you????

Merry Christmas!:beer:
I am certainly my brother's keeper.....

You are 100% right on the above, I only wished I could have phrased it better.

I understand the pandering of funds, it keeps the doors open, just like casino's need people to lose, and this board needs people to donate to keep it running, nothing stays open for long without a financial backing.

Merry Christmas.... :beer:

[duhtroll]

I guess we need to arm all the firefighters now, too. Teachers, firefighters, mall cops and mall workers, the list will go on and on. Sorry, grandma - the firefighter can't carry you down the stairs on his back anymore because he has to carry a gun and wear body armor in addition to all of his other gear.

Paying for the security in the schools in addition to all of the above as proposed by the NRA will cost quite a bit, too. I guess the gun culture is OK with the inevitable tax increases that will come from arming everyone.

The Oregon mall shooting was not stopped by an armed civilian. The facts are the shooter's gun jammed and he was a horrible shot to begin with. Nick Meli's story has not been corroborated by the Sheriff or anyone else so far. And even if he DID pull his weapon, the only person who could answer why the shooter ran away is the shooter himself. Given that most of the other shooters in mass public situations kill themselves, it also makes perfect sense that since he couldn't clear the weapon he realized he was out of options. We'll wait for the security video on that one.

As far as the Columbine shootings, the security officer in question exchanged fire with one of the shooters to no avail. So much for training. Could Neil Gardner, the security officer/deputy in question, have prevented additional deaths? Maybe - but that is unknowable. The argument being presented by the NRA isn't about that, however.

The NRA position of armed security (or "hardening the target" as above) as a deterrent obviously didn't apply to Columbine, because both shooters knew there were armed security personnel present yet still chose that target vs. plenty of softer targets available.

RE: large cap. magazines: It takes a few seconds to reload and those few seconds could save lives. I guess people are still going to deny the math and say my information is wrong, but that doesn't change the facts.

The argument against banning large capacity magazines is essentially "it won't stop everyone or eliminate all innocent deaths, so why bother making any changes?"

I asked earlier why any citizen would need large capacity magazines with which to hunt, or why people need to be able to buy guns without background checks. So far no one has stepped up on that one.

Why are those two changes unreasonable?

[GAMike]

I asked earlier why any citizen would need large capacity magazines with which to hunt, or why people need to be able to buy guns without background checks. So far no one has stepped up on that one.

Why are those two changes unreasonable?

From an earlier post
"Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument."

Sorry Troll, but I did answer your question (maybe not in a format you desired, but answered none the less). Your reasking your question is exactly why the process moves slow..... Keep asking the same question until you get the answer(s) you agree with..... Sorry but that is a baseline liberal tactic, for anything they deem a threat to the liberal agenda.


I personally, would not mind a more extensive background check (the subject of magazine size, is a publicity stunt and thats all), but the conversation won't stop there and you know it.... It will just open the flood gates. Then even those who don't want to be "sheep" will become, or become an outlaw.....

[rayjay]

Everybody is entilted to their opinion. Why did this guy in my home town only serve 18 years? I'd like to know the opinion of the parole board. Oh, and as a ex felon the law says he can't have guns of any type. Bad murder breaking the law... :rolleyes: Laws are wonderful, as long as people follow them. Criminals do not. We had a perfect example Monday.

[cat in the hat]

"The Bill of Rights," as introduced to the first US Congress and comprising what became the first ten ammendments to the US Constitution, is one of the key founding documents of the United States. It is not only a vital symbol of our country and the freedom that we have always strived for, it is a landmark in world history.

No previous generation has seen a need to delete anything in "The Bill of Rights" or make any changes to it since it's ratification in 1791. Admittedly, there are a lot of people that would like to do that very thing; they sincerely believe that they are more qualified to determine the principles that should guide this country than Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and the other men who founded it.

Today, those people would choose to repeal the 2nd Ammendment; it is an obsolete relic written with feather pens by men in powdered wigs. People don't need guns, it's stupid. It is not suited for the modern world, it must go for the common good.

Once that boundary is crossed, what next ? Will some less enlightened administration find trials to be adverse to the common good some day, or decide that the unwarranted seizure of property would be a great asset to it ? Will some future "President" decide that freedom of speech is inconvenient ?

The question isn't whether or not people need guns, it's whether or not people need the Bill of Rights. Much of the freedom and stability that we have enjoyed in this country for more than two centuries can be attributed to the strength and enduring value of the core guiding principles embodied by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Either we continue to stand for them, or we cease to be the same country.

[PonyUP]

"The Bill of Rights," as introduced to the first US Congress and comprising what became the first ten ammendments to the US Constitution, is one of the key founding documents of the United States. It is not only a vital symbol of our country and the freedom that we have always strived for, it is a landmark in world history.

No previous generation has seen a need to delete anything in "The Bill of Rights" or make any changes to it since it's ratification in 1791. Admittedly, there are a lot of people that would like to do that very thing; they sincerely believe that they are more qualified to determine the principles that should guide this country than Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and the other men who founded it.

Today, those people would choose to repeal the 2nd Ammendment; it is an obsolete relic written with feather pens by men in powdered wigs. People don't need guns, it's stupid. It is not suited for the modern world, it must go for the common good.

Once that boundary is crossed, what next ? Will some less enlightened administration find trials to be adverse to the common good some day, or decide that the unwarranted seizure of property would be a great asset to it ? Will some future "President" decide that freedom of speech is inconvenient ?

The question isn't whether or not people need guns, it's whether or not people need the Bill of Rights. Much of the freedom and stability that we have enjoyed in this country for more than two centuries can be attributed to the strength and enduring value of the core guiding principles embodied by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Either we continue to stand for them, or we cease to be the same country.

This is the classic challenge, where does gun control equate to repealing the 2nd Amendment and outlawing guns?

The simple fact of the matter is, there are people out there that should not be able to legally own and operate a gun (most likely the same people should not be allowed to own and operate a vehicle)
I can't speak for everyone, but I will say for the tenth time on this thread, it should be more difficult to own a gun than to walk into a gun show, flash a drivers license, and walk out with a hand cannon 20 minutes later.

No one, and I repeat no one, is talking about repealing the 2nd amendment, it's a huge leap to say they are.

But the answer is not, and cannot be arm everybody. That just lends to the kill em all and let God sort em out mentality, which you might be fine with until you're the one that's killed.

And don't think for a second that if you own a gun you can prevent it, gun owners are as much a victim of murder as anyone else


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[sailsmen]

". It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it’s been interpreted, and the Warren court interpreted it in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, it says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn’t shifted. One of the I think tragedies of the civil rights movement was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributed change and in some ways we still suffer from that." - President Obama

[Mr. Man]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but couldn't.. In support of Ray's comments below, I would Two more things..... What about incidents where armed law abiding citizens have inserted themselves in situations and thwarted a crime/saved someones life????

Again the media never covers these situations with the same ferocity as they do, daily gun related violence that happens in every city in this country.

Second point.... The south as Ponyup has pointed out has more registered gun owners per capita...... Yet Chicago (& Gary), The "D", D.C./Baltimore, Oakland, L.V., STL. Are not in the south.... Sure we have N.O., ATL, Memphis, Miami+++ What does all this mean? In states/cities where there are very strict gun ordinances, there are still too many people being wounded/killed with guns......... The numbers don't really matter, because its beyond ridiculous..... Life is cheap these days... Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart, legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "that's enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... That's why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument.

The real question for America...... How do we as a society prove the value of every human life, and how do we get young people to believe the life of another human is invaluable and sacred???? Gun legislation won't matter if this question is ever answered and communicated by the media, educators and parents..... JMHO.... Sorry for the vent... Just an opinionated concealed carry guy frustrated by a media fed society that lacks a worthy & honorable "code" between people(s). Maybe One day we will get there.... It certainly won't be legislated that's for sure....

Like you Mike I am late to the party but the answer seems fairly simple. Consequences...this is the term that has for some reason gone out of the American psych.

Used to be you did something bad and there was a consequence for it now there's an excuse. We live in a touchy feely country now and we are willing to make excuses for bad behavior.

My answer to the gun control argument would be have as many guns as you want I don't care. Commit a crime with a gun your gone forever, no 3 strikes rule, no mommy didn't hug me as a child, no I'm only 13 so I get out in 5 years. If you are convicted by your peers in court your gone, no bail, no parole, no I'm dying and I have 3 months to live, GONE.

This will also cut down on many other policing problems as well. :)

[PonyUP]

". It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it’s been interpreted, and the Warren court interpreted it in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, it says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn’t shifted. One of the I think tragedies of the civil rights movement was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributed change and in some ways we still suffer from that." - President Obama

Thank you for copy and pasting something that has nothing to do with the conversation, it's very helpful.

I now understand your posts

1) someone mentions guns- copy and paste redistribution of wealth

2) someone mentions budget or fiscal cliff- copy and paste something about the GDP

3) somebody calls me out on my copy and paste- ignore, copy and paste more


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

When my Father inlaw was fire chief of a nearby town. The village trustees wanted to get rid of the police all together and arm the firemen and play both rolls. After that didn't fly. The. village trustees still wanted to arm the firemen. It never happened. And At that time I thought it was crazy. But after reading about the firemen shot few days ago. Perhaps it's not a bad idea.

Criminals won't stop at anything. Laws do not apply to them. Look at what Timothy McVeigh did. Fertilizer and Nitromethane are not banned.


Never forget.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."



Go ahead and ban all you want. Then sooner or later a Hunger Games like society will begin. It's not out of the realm of possibilities of that happening when people can not defend the rights of human beings against an overbearing government. It's happened in mankinds past and it will happen again if people keep wanting more and more government controls.

Let the games begin.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[cat in the hat]

This is the classic challenge, where does gun control equate to repealing the 2nd Amendment and outlawing guns?

The simple fact of the matter is, there are people out there that should not be able to legally own and operate a gun (most likely the same people should not be allowed to own and operate a vehicle)
I can't speak for everyone, but I will say for the tenth time on this thread, it should be more difficult to own a gun than to walk into a gun show, flash a drivers license, and walk out with a hand cannon 20 minutes later.

No one, and I repeat no one, is talking about repealing the 2nd amendment, it's a huge leap to say they are.

But the answer is not, and cannot be arm everybody. That just lends to the kill em all and let God sort em out mentality, which you might be fine with until you're the one that's killed.

And don't think for a second that if you own a gun you can prevent it, gun owners are as much a victim of murder as anyone else


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

Yes, they are. This is just a few I felt like pasting in, there are hundreds.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/12/25/opinion/doc50da6bf91b59c189927470.txt

http://www.winonadailynews.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/jerome/article_e169ed88-d60c-11e1-b8db-001a4bcf887a.html

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21568735-only-drastic-gun-control-could-make-big-difference-small-measures-can-help-bit-newtowns

http://www.examiner.com/article/repeal-the-second-amendment?cid=rss

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-12-23/news/bs-ed-shooting-rights-20121223_1_second-amendment-strict-gun-possession-laws-people

[PonyUP]

Yes, they are. This is just a few I felt like pasting in, there are hundreds.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/12/25/opinion/doc50da6bf91b59c189927470.txt

http://www.winonadailynews.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/jerome/article_e169ed88-d60c-11e1-b8db-001a4bcf887a.html

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21568735-only-drastic-gun-control-could-make-big-difference-small-measures-can-help-bit-newtowns

http://www.examiner.com/article/repeal-the-second-amendment?cid=rss

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-12-23/news/bs-ed-shooting-rights-20121223_1_second-amendment-strict-gun-possession-laws-people

And that's the problem with the Internet, everybody can google links to support their decision, I just refuse to do it.

There has been zero pieces of legislation to repeal the second amendment.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[guspech750]

Be careful of what you wish for from the government. You will never get it back. And then the slide down the slippery slope starts and never stops. Look around the rest of the world. People are not free.

Where do they want to go? They want to come to the USA.

So go ahead and start the path down the slippery slope towards banning this and banning that and eventually leads to getting rid of the 2nd amendment. Once that is gone. Our government can literally throw the constitution in to the dumpster out back and write up all new laws since there would be nothing the once most free people could do or say about it.

It's already happened in many countries around the world.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[cat in the hat]

And that's the problem with the Internet, everybody can google links to support their decision, I just refuse to do it.

There has been zero pieces of legislation to repeal the second amendment.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

You said that no one is talking about repealing the 2nd Ammendment.

I showed you that a whole lot of people are, in fact, talking about that exact thing.

My bad.

[PonyUP]

You said that no one is talking about repealing the 2nd Ammendment.

I showed you that a whole lot of people are, in fact, talking about that exact thing.

My bad.

Okay, allow me to be direct, no one with any kind of power, meaning elected officials, is trying to repeal the second amendment. But that is the NRAs and conservatives favorite rallying call. "Oh my God, they want to change gun laws, they are trying to prevent us from forming a militia to prevent a tyranistic government from taking over."

What I find amusing is the interpretation if the second amendment. It was written during a time where no one could possibly foresee the future. It was written to legalize our rebellion from Britain, it was not written so that the guy that flunked out of 6th grade with a meth problem could buy a gun. And yet, provided he had no criminal record a meth addict could do exactly that.

I'm sorry but there is zero argument you can make, or zero links you can copy and paste that will make me believe we don't need deeper restrictions and background checks on people buying guns. And law abiding citizens that should own guns should have zero problem with it.

Answer this without googling, shouldn't be harder to get a gun than a fishing license? Or a drivers license for that matter?


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[GAMike]

Brad..... The fact that these discussions are out there... That the media is promoting them means that there are discussions on Capital Hill about these very things....... If it ever reaches the floor it would tear this country apart...... If Obama or any other President seeks to circumvent the traditional process (like he did with Obamacare) LOOKOUT! Just sayin.....

You are reasonable... I am (somewhat:o) The people advocating either side of this argument in the halls of power, are not....... There is NO end game for them other than a 100% swing of the pendulum to their side of the argument....... Neither is right. Neither will stop. The issue makes strides based on what Cat in the Hat said..... Government fearing its citizens, or Citizens fearing our Govt......

Mr. Man- I am onboard with your choices and consiquences theory. There are still too many young people tho, that either don't think or don't care that rational action by folks like us will not effect...... A shame, but true..



And that's the problem with the Internet, everybody can google links to support their decision, I just refuse to do it.

There has been zero pieces of legislation to repeal the second amendment.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[sailsmen]

To obtain the Goal of banning guns the Second Amendment does not have to be repealed. There are lots of "common sense regulations" the Gov't can pass to obtain the Goal of banning Guns for the common folks.
The most basic right is the right of self defense. There are those in power who believe the individual has no rights, that all rights are vested with the Gov't.
The first 3 steps to tyranny are 1) divide into groups, 2) give some groups more rights than other groups and 3) disarm the population.

A friend who was in the military for 20 years and recently retired told me 3 months before retirement he was sent a survey asking him if he would confiscate legally owned guns from USA citizens. He refused to complete the survey. He also said during the past 2 years they conducted war games against the USA Civilian population.

After Katrina NOPD entered peoples homes with out a warrant, searched and confiscated legally owned guns.

[cat in the hat]

Okay, allow me to be direct, no one with any kind of power, meaning elected officials, is trying to repeal the second amendment. But that is the NRAs and conservatives favorite rallying call. "Oh my God, they want to change gun laws, they are trying to prevent us from forming a militia to prevent a tyranistic government from taking over."

What I find amusing is the interpretation if the second amendment. It was written during a time where no one could possibly foresee the future. It was written to legalize our rebellion from Britain, it was not written so that the guy that flunked out of 6th grade with a meth problem could buy a gun. And yet, provided he had no criminal record a meth addict could do exactly that.

I'm sorry but there is zero argument you can make, or zero links you can copy and paste that will make me believe we don't need deeper restrictions and background checks on people buying guns. And law abiding citizens that should own guns should have zero problem with it.

Answer this without googling, shouldn't be harder to get a gun than a fishing license? Or a drivers license for that matter?


1. The editorial boards of prominent newspapers and magazines may not have the direct legislative power of elected officials, but they are extremely powerful nevertheless. Things don't begin with legislative action, they build up to it.

2. The 2nd Ammendment has been interpreted to mean exactly what it says by the US Supreme Court many, many times. I understand that it was written a long time ago, and now a lot of people don't like what it says, but that's what it says. It's not like the Bible, where you can pick and choose the parts that suit you (as guaranteed by the 1st Ammendment), it's a legal document.

3. Interestingly enough, the US Constitution does not specifically guarantee you the right to go fishing, or drive a car, or watch TV, or pick your nose. It does, however, specifically guarantee you the right to own a gun. Go figure.

4. All of these mass shootings are committed by people with deep mental problems. Mental health records are considered to be confidential medical records and are not available to the Police; also, obviously, even if a person is a raving lunatic, if they've never been diagnosed or treated there are no records to check. If you can figure out a way to account for this, without abrogating the rights that the citizens of this country guaranteed to themselves when they founded it, I have zero problems with it.

[rayjay]

IMHO, if the 2nd Amendment is repealed, the 4th Amendment will be suspended to allow implementaton. You won't get either back. Welcome to Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. -or- the start of the 2nd revolution. The sheeple in the socom bastions will lay down, the remainder will rise up. A divided country ripe for the picking.

[sailsmen]

Be careful of what you wish for from the government. You will never get it back. And then the slide down the slippery slope starts and never stops. Look around the rest of the world. People are not free.

Where do they want to go? They want to come to the USA.

So go ahead and start the path down the slippery slope towards banning this and banning that and eventually leads to getting rid of the 2nd amendment. Once that is gone. Our government can literally throw the constitution in to the dumpster out back and write up all new laws since there would be nothing the once most free people could do or say about it.

It's already happened in many countries around the world.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

But they are smarter than all those, (Russians, Chinese, Koreans, Germans, Cubans, Italians), who go it wrong when they "ruled" their people.

[GAMike]

A friend who was in the military for 20 years and recently retired told me 3 months before retirement he was sent a survey asking him if he would confiscate legally owned guns from USA citizens. He refused to complete the survey. He also said during the past 2 years they conducted war games against the USA Civilian population. Have also heard about these so called "war games"

After Katrina NOPD entered peoples homes with out a warrant, searched and confiscated legally owned guns.

With regards to NOPD entering homes...... Where they occupied, or abandoned Sail? Was it actually NOPD, or Contractors.... National Guard?
Ray Nagin set that entire city up for failure:shake:. He had no playbook despite all the warning signs. Because of this we will never know the full extent of the many abuses of power and conversely the many instances of heroism that actually occurred in NO.... Yet we are expected at times to have an inordinate amount of faith in politicians.......

[sailsmen]

NOPD and the "National Guard" illegally took lawfully owned guns from citizens by illegally searching their occupied home and off their person.
There were "National Guards" from other states where guns are essentially banned and they were confiscating guns.
The NRA took legal action against New Orleans to stop it and the City Atty was held in contempt because the City refused to comply.

I used to frequent Cooter Browns. I know lots of Liberals who became firm believers in the Second Amendment as a result of Katrina and who have exercised their right.

Uptown businesses rebound from Katrina's chaos
By Richard A. Webster Staff Writer “City Business”
2005-10-01 5:54 PM CST

NEW ORLEANS - After 32 chaotic days of desolation and darkness, clashes with armed gangs of looters and long hours spent repairing damage from the bruising blows of Hurricane Katrina, Art Depodesta reopened his restaurant at Cooter Brown’s on Thursday evening.
Paul Cosma, owner of the neighboring Uptown Auto Specialists, said despite New Orleans "ghost town" status business at Cooter Brown’s has been brisk.
"All the SWAT guys and cops from out of town are coming in," Cosma said. "Last night 30 of them came by in an hour. But who knows what’s going to happen in the long run. It’s the whole uncertainty of everything. None of us know what's going to happen."
Depodesta said all he can do is get his place up and running and hope for the best.
"The colleges are a big part of our business so without them it will definitely hurt," Depodesta said. "This was going to be a record year for us … but if we can hold out until after the first of the year business will pick up again."
Depodesta pays $30,000 a year for insurance and $5,500 a month in utilities, but he said it is the rising price of gas that has him most worried.
"Everything comes in by truck and if they have to pay more for gas the delivery prices go up which means I could have to jack the price of a burger up to $10 and if that happens no one gets paid," Depodesta said.
The structural damage to the Cooter Brown’s building was limited though the roof peeled off directly above Depodesta’s newly renovated second floor apartment. He and Cosma patched it up only to have Hurricane Rita undo all of their work.
The real damage occurred inside the restaurant’s freezers, Cosma said.
"Can you imagine $20,000 worth of oysters, roasts, pastramis, hams, burgers, chickens and every kind of food you have at a restaurant like that? Can you imagine freezers full of this kind of food gone bad? It was pretty rude."
Depodesta and Cosma sprayed the freezers with bleach using a pump sprayer, then pressure washed them. After all of that work, two of the freezers blew up when the electricity returned.
Due to the loss of his freezers and a limited staff, Cosma said Depodesta will offer a limited menu.
"He'll be doing a limited menu only because many of his workers don't even have a place to live so he can’t bring his whole crew in,” Cosma said. "I loaned him my truck so he can make food runs out to his suppliers in Harahan."
It has been hard work repairing and rebuilding his business but nothing compared to what took place in the aftermath of Katrina, said Depodesta.
Protecting the store
The trouble started almost immediately after Katrina passed, even before the first Uptown businesses rebound from Katrina's chaos
By Richard A. Webster Staff Writer “City Business”
2005-10-01 5:54 PM CST

NEW ORLEANS - After 32 chaotic days of desolation and darkness, clashes with armed gangs of looters and long hours spent repairing damage from the bruising blows of Hurricane Katrina, Art Depodesta reopened his restaurant at Cooter Brown’s on Thursday evening.
Paul Cosma, owner of the neighboring Uptown Auto Specialists, said despite New Orleans "ghost town" status business at Cooter Brown’s has been brisk.
"All the SWAT guys and cops from out of town are coming in," Cosma said. "Last night 30 of them came by in an hour. But who knows what’s going to happen in the long run. It’s the whole uncertainty of everything. None of us know what's going to happen."
Depodesta said all he can do is get his place up and running and hope for the best.
"The colleges are a big part of our business so without them it will definitely hurt," Depodesta said. "This was going to be a record year for us … but if we can hold out until after the first of the year business will pick up again."
Depodesta pays $30,000 a year for insurance and $5,500 a month in utilities, but he said it is the rising price of gas that has him most worried.
"Everything comes in by truck and if they have to pay more for gas the delivery prices go up which means I could have to jack the price of a burger up to $10 and if that happens no one gets paid," Depodesta said.
The structural damage to the Cooter Brown’s building was limited though the roof peeled off directly above Depodesta’s newly renovated second floor apartment. He and Cosma patched it up only to have Hurricane Rita undo all of their work.

[sailsmen]

The real damage occurred inside the restaurant’s freezers, Cosma said.
"Can you imagine $20,000 worth of oysters, roasts, pastramis, hams, burgers, chickens and every kind of food you have at a restaurant like that? Can you imagine freezers full of this kind of food gone bad? It was pretty rude."
Depodesta and Cosma sprayed the freezers with bleach using a pump sprayer, then pressure washed them. After all of that work, two of the freezers blew up when the electricity returned.
Due to the loss of his freezers and a limited staff, Cosma said Depodesta will offer a limited menu.
"He'll be doing a limited menu only because many of his workers don't even have a place to live so he can’t bring his whole crew in,” Cosma said. "I loaned him my truck so he can make food runs out to his suppliers in Harahan."
It has been hard work repairing and rebuilding his business but nothing compared to what took place in the aftermath of Katrina, said Depodesta.
Protecting the store
The trouble started almost immediately after Katrina passed, even before the first levee broke.
After the heaviest winds died to a breeze, Depodesta and Cosma drove to the St. Charles Tavern on St. Charles Avenue - armed with guns to defend themselves.
"Paul had his Sig and I had my .45," Depodesta said. "We're all strapped up and the guys in the Tavern are handing us beers through the window. They had their weapons out, too."
And that’s when Depodesta said he saw them — stolen cars tearing up and down St. Charles Avenue packed with masked men pointing guns at innocent people stumbling down sidewalks in search of information.
"Besides the flooding the biggest problem we had were these idiots after the storm," Depodesta said. "They were like animals. The cops are trying to rescue people and these idiots are going around shooting people. There aren’t enough cops to begin with and they don’t get paid anything anyway so they couldn’t help. The one thing I learned was don’t count on anyone but yourself. And never go to a shelter."
Depodesta and Cosma returned to their businesses and prepared for the worst. It wasn't long before gangs of thugs appeared on Carrollton Avenue.
"They started coming down the street and when they got close I let loose with a 12 gauge and they went running," Depodesta said. "One guy came back in a truck with a gun but we had the drop on him. I had a buddy here with an HK and I had my 12 gauge. When the guy in the truck saw that he decided he didn’t want to play anymore. Let’s just put it that way."
Things proceeded to get weirder, Depodesta said.
"They stole a damn forklift, drove it down to Rite Aid and lifted open the gates. Me and Paul went down there and cut all of the wires out of it. The last thing I want is a guy driving around here with a forklift."
A few days after the storm, Cosma grabbed a pair of bolt cutters from a suspected looter.
"First the kid said it was his uncle’s, then he said he was going to come back and shoot us," Depodesta said. "I said, 'Go ahead man. It’s like martial law. In fact there is no law so come on back here because I know damn well I’m a better shot than you and have better weapons.' I made it through the storm and had no flooding and then I got to watch some animals tear apart the place I built? I don’t think so."
When the military arrived four days after Katrina made landfall, Depodesta said they attempted to confiscate his weapons.
"I made it clear that wasn’t going to happen and they left me alone."
Return to normal?
Cosma re-opened Uptown Auto Specialists on Monday. There was a lot of debris to be cleaned up but no structural damage.
With the hundreds of broken down and waterlogged vehicles scattered around New Orleans, it would appear that auto repair shops are primed for a banner season, but Cosma said that may not be the case.
"It could be a total bust this time," he said. "All these cars have been sitting around in this (stuff) for so long. Typically when we have a storm cars are maybe two days in the water and you get them drug in and we take them apart immediately. But these cars have been sitting in the water or been wet for a month. A lot more cars are going to be totaled than in previous times."
Cosma, however, said his most pressing concern is providing financially for the 10 people he employs.
"As an employer you’re responsible for all of your employees so how would you feel as an employer if you couldn't provide to your employees what you promised when you hired them? I feel like (crap). I’m responsible for 10 people and there's only so much I can do.
"We're coming back and we'll see what happens but if there's no business I'll have to let them go. But I don't foresee that happening and I don't want to do that to happen because it's hard to get good employees. The toughest thing is I've been in business for over 20 years and I don't know what's going to happen."

[sailsmen]

For the deniers, listen to Brian Williams interview 5 years latter, particularly the 7 minute mark, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asYWzCHNQKs
"State Troopers had to cover us by aiming at the man in the street..."

Several of my relatives got out by joining the caravan Brian Wiliams refers to.

[PonyUP]

IMHO, if the 2nd Amendment is repealed, the 4th Amendment will be suspended to allow implementaton. You won't get either back. Welcome to Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. -or- the start of the 2nd revolution. The sheeple in the socom bastions will lay down, the remainder will rise up. A divided country ripe for the picking.

Agreed Ray, however we have been losing constitutional freedoms for some time in the name of safety. Look at the travel industry following 9/11.
The constitution was set so that it could be altered and grow through time through amendments.
I don't want good people to lose their right to bear arms, but I think we all can agree that there are some people that should not be allowed to own a gun, and I feel we need to put policies in place to try out best to detect those people.
Reducing mag capacity or banning assault rifles is nonsense and will do nothing to curb the problem
We have to dig into the background and mental facilities of those buying the guns.
Will it prevent crime? No. Will it stop spree killings? No, but it will make it more difficult.
What I struggle with, is everyone of these spree killings has been done with a legally purchased gun by either the shooter themselves, or through direct relatives. Surely we can do something about that without infringing on a good persons right to bear arms.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[Marauderjack]

View THIS with an OPEN mind..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3l2HpBTOzvU

This "Fiscal Cliff" stuff is the LEAST of our worries folks!!:confused:

[PonyUP]

View THIS with an OPEN mind..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3l2HpBTOzvU

This "Fiscal Cliff" stuff is the LEAST of our worries folks!!:confused:

I watched it, and understand the points, but I think this is just another norm and the continued evolution of a naturally suspicious society. We never take anything at face value anymore, everything has to have a Hollywood twist
People believe we faked the moon landing
People believe bombs caused 9/11 and that Bush did it intentionally to start a war to clean up after daddy
People believe the Mob killed Kennedy

And so much more, why do they believe it, because its more interesting than the truth and its an attempt to continue to implement fear and push agendas

People can believe what they want, are there cover ups? CIA conspiracies? Sure, but is everything a conspiracy? No




The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[sailsmen]

A National Tragedy is the Auto Deaths, most of which are operator error. In 2011 32,367 Auto Deaths.
Clearly there needs to be increased safety measures for Autos and increased license requirements. The number of Auto Deaths has only been reduced 18% since 1992.
Banning those who are on any type of medication, cannot read English or who have ever received any type of counseling are reasonable requirements that will result in increased safety.
Also limiting who can buy an Auto to those who can meet the license requirements. Autos that have over 100Hp are not needed, Autos that weigh over 3,000lbs pose a threat to others, 4WD autos are not needed, etc.

The number of murders has been reduced from 1992 23,760 to 2011 14,612. Annual murder rate in the USA has been reduced 50% since 1992 of which those committed with guns in 2011 is 68% or ~9,500 annually.

[PonyUP]

A National Tragedy is the Auto Deaths, most of which are operator error. In 2011 32,367 Auto Deaths.
Clearly there needs to be increased safety measures for Autos and increased license requirements. The number of Auto Deaths has only been reduced 18% since 1992.
Banning those who are on any type of medication, cannot read English or who have ever received any type of counseling are reasonable requirements that will result in increased safety.
Also limiting who can buy an Auto to those who can meet the license requirements. Autos that have over 100Hp are not needed, Autos that weigh over 3,000lbs pose a threat to others, 4WD autos are not needed, etc.

The number of murders has been reduced from 1992 23,760 to 2011 14,612. Annual murder rate in the USA has been reduced 50% since 1992 of which those committed with guns in 2011 is 68% or ~9,500 annually.

Ridiculous argument, you cannot compare the automobile to a gun

Copy and paste all you want


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

[sailsmen]

From Senator Feinstein's website on her Bill http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons ;

Summary of 2013 legislation

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:
Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
120 specifically-named firearms
Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds
Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans
Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.
Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons
Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
Background check of owner and any transferee;
Type and serial number of the firearm;
Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

[sailsmen]

As respects auto deaths we know that Speed Kills. No one has any reason to go over the speed limit. All autos should be limited from exceeding the speed limit.
Existing autos will be grandfathered;
Background check of owner and any transferee;
Type and serial number of the auto;
Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration.

We then need to move on to some of the other killers, such as obesity, smoking, alcohol and so on. For Public safety and the Public good on and on and on.

Clearly with only 300,000 Federal Laws and 68 new Fed Regulations being passed every day the problem is not enough Laws and not enough Gov't.

[MM2004]

I continue to pray for all the people that have been impacted by this horrible event.

This thread has more than ran it's course, and I thank everyone for sharing their thoughts.

Mike.