Yet another "Panther" explosion...

[ts-pa]

I just heard on the news that, yet again, another "Panther" platform car explosion has occurred, killing two people. A NY State Trooper was responding to an accident call along a highway. While the tow truck was loading up, a Jeep plowed into the rear end of the Crown Victoria causing an explosion which killed the driver of the Jeep and the officer inside the CV.
How many more deaths does it take before people take this problem with the pre-2003 model "Panther" platform of cars seriously. Get your Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car to the dealers to get the fixes applied to their cars.
I'm going to get mine done ASAP in Jan. Then I will send the copies of the bill to Ford. Hopefully, they will do the right thing and reimburse me for fixing their design flaws. This is absolutely ridiculous that Ford only did a partial recall for this safety issue. ALL of these cars must be corrected with this recall, paid for by Ford.
I’ve heard from a member of this board that his Marauder has an additional “shield” near the gas tank. That is probably the recall in effect, but now being implemented on new vehicles also. If a new, non-police vehicle has this fix, why doesn’t Ford do the right thing by correcting ALL 1992-2002 cars?

To read more about this issue:
http://www.safetyforum.com/cvpi/
http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.c om/index.html
http://www.bofus.net/crtn.htm

[Larry Vogel]

It should cover more years and models than that, ever see the clearance between the tank and the rear axel on G/M ? I've got an "83" that has maybe 2-3 inches. I used a 1/2 inch thick piece of heavy duty vinyl that I think will work in case I get clobbered hard in the rear.

[Directedby]

Hmmmm???

Pinto anyone. Don't they ever learn?

[Fourth Horseman]

Yet an NTSB study of this found that the panthers exceed federal rear-end impact requirements and are no more likely to explode than a Caprice when hit from the rear.

I think the only difference between the big cars like the panthers and any other car is that in the panther the occupant lives long enough to burn to death. In other cars the passanger died from the impact and the corpse is left to burn. :rolleyes:

[RCSignals]

There is more of a Police procedure problem to all of this than a "Panther" problem

Do some research and you'll find these "exploding" cars have all been hit at freeway speeds and higher.
Police cars mostly and often when parked in or with the rear of the vehicle in the traveling lane.

There are other Police equipment installation issues that have sometimes contributed such as screws piercing fuel lines and the gas tank itself, etc.

Also, the gas tank on these cars is not directly behind the rear axle. it is mostly above it, and there is well over 20" of "crush zone" before it.

Take a look at a Caprice or Impala and see where the tank is.
The NHTSB determined that fuel tank fires in Ford Police vehicles and Panthers in general were no higher than in Caprice Police vehicles , despite the more precarious position of the Caprice tank.

If these shield measures should be applied to all Panthers then they should also be applied to every vehicle made.

Guess what, every vehicle when hit with that much energy has the potential for a fuel fed fire.

http://www.cvpi.com

[SergntMac]

TS-PA, I admire your call to arms, it's good to be emotional about this topic, I'm a LEO myself. However, it's too soon for emotions, all the facts are not known. This may not be Pinto/GMC pick-up issue afterall.

Emotions will dictate how many zeros in the settlement check FMC will come to write. Manner of death and quality of life for surviving famlies will be added when that time comes. FMC will write that check too, but more likely because others in the liability food chain will turn against them. Until then, more investigation is needed. RC and Fourth Horseman point in good directions, summon logic, and I'd like to expand on that.

X number of LEOs have been killed, how many have survived?
X number of cars ignited, how many have not?
Any non-panthers ignite? Any?

With respect to the panthers already burned up, how were they tailored for service by the LE agency? State police around here carry a ton of stuff in their cars, and the more rural their patrol area, the more stuff at hand. One article I read on this last crash quoted witnesses as stating they heard gunfire from the back of the car. Hmmm...

Moreover, I consider that when you fill the trunk with equipment, (mounted correctly or not) you also reduce the effectiveness of the crush zone. OTOH, when you shove 2/3rd of any car, into the first 1/3, what is an acceptable end effect?

I do know of one crash in Wisc. where the PI did not ignite, and both officers died. The equipment carried/installed by the LE agency is suspect, but the LE agency's liability will likely paint their opinions against FMC, I'm sure of it.

FMC has 80% of the PI market and no one to share the blame with, and it's not likely we will hear the truth spoken out loud. Someday, we'll read of a settlement, maybe hear an offer from FMC to wrap gas tanks in Kevlar. We'll read, and think to ourselves, that FMC got what IT deserved....But, did we?

[cyclone03]

Sgt Mac,
You bring up several very good points above!
If you fill the trunk up the "crush zone" will shrink.A tire iron positioned for-aft would act just like a spear into the tank.
Does anybody know if the fuel tank is actualy punctured or the lines are severed?
As has been said it is very dangerous to stop on the side of the highway with traffic moving at 70+MPH.
We hear about this because so many LE agentcies use these cars.
If they drove SAABS I'm sure we would here about problems with those cars too.

[RCSignals]

Good Post SergntMac

From what I've read in those articles, the Jeep also burst into flames.

A while back, another Policeman posted on another site that the fuel tanks of most of the new cvpis in their fleet had to be replaced, because the equipment installers had put fasteners into almost every tank. It was caught in this case before the cars were very long in service.

Another person who had bought a used PI at auction complained about smelling gas. After searching for it, he discovered that a fuel line to the tank had been punctured by a screw from previously installed equipment. Apparently as long as the screw was there the hole in the line line was basically sealed. When the equipment was removed, the hole was open.
What I'm trying to point out here, is that in many of these instances there may be contributing factors other than the collision itself to fuel leakage.

I agree with you, we rarely, if ever read the stories about severe crashes of the Panther cars where the occupants survive or walk away. I suspect there have been much more such instances than not, but they really aren't newsworthy on the same scale.

[Larry Vogel]

While their is no way that you can make a gas tank absolutely safe, all the auto companies since the 60's have known the safest place to place that potential bomb was over the rear axel. Their really is no excuse for them not to protect it when placed behind the rear end.
For other information on the gas tanks of FoMoCo products, the disscussion has been going on for quite some time, go to www.blueovalnews.com.

[Logan]

I'll make this simple observation.

Don't be stopped on the side of the road with lots of flashing lights and you won't get hit from behind at 70+mph.

It's that whole deer in headlights thing no?

Chances are a cops chance of getting hit by behind and exploding his car would be about 8 million times higher than the average joe.

Something also tells me that you could take pretty much any other car, short of a Humvee, hit it from behind at 70mph and not live to tell the tale, explosion or no.

[nomad]

Scratch out the Humvee. I know of a 18 year old kid who slammed into the back of one at 45 mph with a Mitsubishi Eclipse. Went under the Humvee, broke the rear axle in half and caused $17,000 damage to the Hummer, sent driver and passenger to hospital, totalled the Mitsu. Oh yeah, the kid walked away, unhurt. Stuff happens. Personally, I'd rather be in a full size car than a small one in an accident. [Or no accident at all]!!

[Larry Vogel]

Not all cars were hit at high speeds. Their are the survivors that have been interviewed, massive burn victims, mostly policemen. This issue has been going on for years now and the only reason Ford won't do much of anything is because they would be admitting fault if they did. They could have early on fixed the problem with a foam fuel cell, placed in a safe place for at least the cop cars.

[Geo]

I've often wondered in the case of the Mustangs (which are just as known for the potential hazard) if a racing fuel cell would help. Didn't the 2000 and 1995 Cobra Rs not come with a racing fuel cell? There sure seems to be a difference in tank design when they are viewed from behind.

My Impala SS seems to have a plastic-type fuel tank (and is under the trunk floor in a more traditional position as opposed to the 92-current Panther location of being parallel to the axle and trunk). I wonder of the plastic-style vs. metal would make a difference.

GEO

[Pantherman]

The relative safety of the Panther can be pretty well determined by looking at the bottom line on your insurance bill. Your insurance company writes checks every day. They have been writing checks covering Panther accidents for 20 years. They KNOW what the risks are.

[RCSignals]

Actually all the cvpi fires have been from high speed rear end collision. Some well over 70 mph.
The latest NY one i read was over 90 mph.
That said, there have also been instances where the CV did not ignite after high speed collision,and the driver was unhurt or sustained minor injury. We just don't hear of those when they happen.
There are probably no statistics for those as well.
I saw one picture of a pi that had been in a collision with a semi (the pi lost control and crossed over in front of the truck) The car was flattened, but the driver lived.

[Geo]

Indeed, although I believe that the fuel tank could be in a better position relative to the axle (not to mention that infamous bolt near the gas tank) I still think the statistics involving Crown Vic fires are a little biased.

Even if Ford did admit that there have been more fatalities and incidents than the Pinto in the 70's (and Bobcat I'm sure), this stat I'm sure would be the reverse if the Pinto was used as a Police Car in the 70's (HAHAHA) therefore how many Pinto-type accidents have their been in Panthers and hence how many fires and/or fatalities. Plus, the fact that the Panther-body is the only RWD product that can be used as a police car (except the Camaro which has the tank in front of the axle) there isn't anyone else to share the stats with. If this was 1985, I'm sure that all stats on this subject would be different (this assuming 92-02 Panthers also roamed the streets in 1985 in the mix) and not to mention that most police officers may agree that in the last 4-5 years, population on the highways have increased exponentially in many areas therefore more drivers are not likely to see a dangerous anomoly until it is too late. Also there is less shoulder room on many highways in densely populated metropolitan cities as highway lanes have increased with less room to spare.

-GEO