HP ?'s

[MYSTA KANG]

I have seen all the guys cars and HP in here on the board. Now I go to other sites and read about the other 4 door car and none of the numbers are even close to the MM. And the excuse I always read is "there is no misplacement for displacement" The powerplant in the MM is bored out to 4.6 liters and that gives it 286 cubic inches in old school terms right. Now when other engine powerplants are bored .30 over that makes a 350 turn into a 383 right well a 381. Now from the looks of the MM engine it is very big, so is that the reason it is getting those numbers when Dr. Enginestien's (kenny Brown and the triolgy boys) get ahold to them?

Plus I read one guy in here said he didnt even get a S/C and he is pushing 460 horses.

getting out my note taking pad and sharpening my pencil....................

[woaface]

I'd be suprised to see someone push HP levels to 460 (was that flywheel or rearwheel?) without going to a 5.0 liter and be naturally aspirated.

Yeah, I don't own a Marauder so I can't say, but if you could find that guy/gal, that'd be cool

[Smokie]

The 4.6 liter is 281 cubic inches, the other 4 door as you call it, has 350 cubic inches, all else being equal, greater displacement will win.
The 4.6 looks huge because an aluminun block has to be thicker than iron to be as strong and a dual overhead cam 4 valve per cylinder design means huge heads.
The 350 push rod engine makes more low end torque our engine revs higher and makes more horsepower.

[Ross]

We have some cars on this board with awesome power, but I don't recall anyone claiming 460 HP NA.

[MYSTA KANG]

So does that mean since the block is thicker we can bore it out more to produce more HP. And the torque issue, I may be wrong but if car MM have more HP than car SS, does that make up in the area of less torque?

[Ross]

As I understand it, the block is thicker because it's aluminum, and therefore has to be thicker than a corresponding iron block would be. If you bore it out too much, you will lose the extra thickness that aluminum needs to do its job compared to an iron block.

[Smokie]

So does that mean since the block is thicker we can bore it out more to produce more HP. And the torque issue, I may be wrong but if car MM have more HP than car SS, does that make up in the area of less torque?
The 4.6 can be stroked to 5.0. I don't know about boring the block I don't know much about aluminun blocks.
In regards to hp vs torque, here are the facts: torque will win the short race; up to 1/8 mile, horsepower will win the other 1/8 mile. My personal experience is on a video you can look at if you wish, you will see for yourself.

Member Gallery: Smokie Video Heavyweight Shootout.

[FordNut]

So does that mean since the block is thicker we can bore it out more to produce more HP. And the torque issue, I may be wrong but if car MM have more HP than car SS, does that make up in the area of less torque?
No, the block is thicker not the cylinder walls. Probably the best approach to a displacement increase with the 4.6 block is a stroker crank.

Everything else being equal, the higher torque engine will win off the line while the higher hp engine will come on better at the top end.

The hp numbers you see with the MM are high mostly because of the heads. The DOHC heads with 4 valves per cylinder breathe lmuch better than heads on a pushrod engine.

If somebody was posting 460 hp in a n/a MM with the 4.6, it would have to be with the assistance of nitrous.

[MYSTA KANG]

Fellas im sorry i ment 360HP. I cant find the post but the guy told someone he dont even have a SC all he done was changed the chip and some more items for about $3500.

[RF Overlord]

I may be wrong but if car MM have more HP than car SS, does that make up in the area of less torque?

Correct...

Impala SS (the GOOD ones, not the new wrong-wheel-drive ones):
260 HP / 330 TQ

Marauder:
302 HP / 318 TQ

An SS will take a MM off the line, but the MM will catch up mighty quickly...

[FordNut]

Fellas im sorry i ment 360HP. I cant find the post but the guy told someone he dont even have a SC all he done was changed the chip and some more items for about $3500.
That is possible. Assume the factory rated 302 hp at the crank, when we dyno the stock cars, measures about 240 at the rear wheels, a 20% drop. With headers, exhaust system, pulleys, chip, 'stat, plugs (all the bolt-on goodies) several of us are pumping out around 290 at the rear wheels. A 20% drop from 360 at the crank comes out to 288 at the rear wheels.

[MYSTA KANG]

Ok Im on the same page now. But at some point will you have to up grade to a better tranny than the factory or is it possible to override the C++ that the computer is sending to the electronic tranny. The tranny is computer ran right. If you could trick the tranny signal into thinking it had more torque..........let me slow down b4 i loose many of you.Im just doing the what ifs cause i want to be for certain when I do get my MM she will be off the chain.

[FordNut]

Ok Im on the same page now. But at some point will you have to up grade to a better tranny than the factory or is it possible to override the C++ that the computer is sending to the electronic tranny. The tranny is computer ran right. If you could trick the tranny signal into thinking it had more torque..........let me slow down b4 i loose many of you.Im just doing the what ifs cause i want to be for certain when I do get my MM she will be off the chain.
The tranny is controlled electronically by the computer and the shifting pressures, shift RPM, torque converter clutch lockup, etc are adjustable with the chip. Also the aftermarket has some performance parts such as torque converters, heavy duty bands, high performance clutch plates and accumulator valves. There is also a valve body mod which changes the shifting pressures with different size orifices (drill out the holes to a larger size). The tranny can be made into a pretty bulletproof unit.

[SergntMac]

Sorry KANG, I'm not sure what you're asking here now. You must be brainstorming something MM related, but I can't get a handle on that. Are you an owner, or, a prospective owner? Apparently, others here are missing your point too?

We speak in "conventional" terms here, terms we all understand. Any mention of horsepower, or, torque produced is always expressed by what's shown at the rear wheels. A "bone stock" MM should produce 240 RWHP and 255 RWTQ. The numbers you read in our sigs is most likely expressed in these terms, because this is the power that gets to the pavement, in our "real world."

Y'all...This discussion seems limited to CID, HP, TQ and bore/stroke numbers, and keeping it so limited, y'all are spinning your wheels. There is a lot more behind building the end result than just these numbers. The SS 350 CID is a cast iron, pushrod, single cam, 16 valve EFI engine. The MM 281 CID is an all aluminum, dual overhead cam, 32 valve EFI engine. It may seem just a few years between model years, but a decade of engineering development and progress in that time. This is not a fair comparasion, because "all things being equal" cannot be achieved.

On another note mentioned...

I read here everyday, I live here. Little gets past me, and any "360 HP" Marauder would get my attention. This cannot be a RWHP number from a N/A Marauder. This is someone's imagination, or misunderstanding, at play. "360 HP" ain't happening on any N/A Marauder here, ever.

And, before you post your "oh yeah? With a 50 pound shot..." reply, juice is not N/A. We've had that discussion too.

IMHO...There is only one way to discuss this stuff any further, and that is on the 1320...What are y'all doing next July 30th?

[Fourth Horseman]

The SS 350 CID is a cast iron, pushrod, single cam, 16 valve EFI engine.
(note: bold emphasis in the above quote is mine for clarity)

If the engine is of pushrod design, doesn't that mean that there are no overhead cams? I thought the pushrods drove off the crank to actuate the valves? Did I understand that wrong?

[jspradii]

Nitrous is introduced to an N/A setup, but it is not a stock application nor a mechanical power adder. Yes Mac, we had this discusssion. Time for a brief review. There will be a test later........:D

[SergntMac]

If the engine is of pushrod design, doesn't that mean that there are no overhead cams? I thought the pushrods drove off the crank to actuate the valves? Did I understand that wrong?
Yes.

The 350 has a single cam in the center of the block that pushes lifters up as it rotates. The cam is connected to the crank by a timing chain or gears, for synchronization with the combustion process. The lifters push drinking straw like metal rods up and down, which open intake and exhaust valves at the other end. The rods you are thinking of, are connecting rods that connect pistons to the crank. In a overhead cam engine such as our 4.6L DOHC, there are no push rods, therefore, no need to clarify the distinction between a push rod and a connecting rod.

[prchrman]

Now when other engine powerplants are bored .30 over that makes a 350 turn into a 383 right well a 381. ....................

350ci has to be stroked to get 383ci...boring a 350ci at .030 only gives about 6 to 7 ci...

[Warpath]

The 4.6L engines can be "bored" out. I have 4.6L Cobra engine which has been "bored" to 5.0L. Its in quotes since it isn't as simple as sticking a big fat drill bit down the cylinder. The aluminum cylinders are lined with iron sleeves (or maybe steel). In other words, there is a iron sleeve inside the block that is the cylinder. In order to bore out the aluminum engine to 5.0L, you would pull out and throw out the stock sleeves, enlarge the holes in the block, and insert new, larger diameter iron sleeves. I have been advised that boring these engines is better performance wise than stroking them. One reason is these engines love to rev high and increasing stroke increases piston velocity. Therefore, you have to limit high rpms to keep piston speed from getting too high. Secondly, I have been told if I were to stroke the engine, do not offset grind the crank. Use a specially designed and made crank. Offset grinding grinds down the connecting rod journals to a smaller diameter with a center further away from the crankshaft bearing centers. This offset grind can weaken the crankshaft.

[stumpy]

350ci has to be stroked to get 383ci...boring a 350ci at .030 only gives about 6 to 7 ci...
Correct! Boring .030 over produces a 355 cid. A 383 cid is made from a 350 block bored .030 over AND a 400 crank, which lengthens the stroke. Likewise, bore a little larger and get a 396 cid. A recent stroker development is to take the Gen 3 motor, which is a 346 cid and re-sleeve and stroke it to 427 cid :eek:

I don't recall when Ford started making the current OHC engines, but I've heard that the 5.7l LT5 that GM put into the ZR1 was Fords inspiration for the move. Funny thing is, GM went back to the push rod engine and have been doing phenomenal with it.

[MYSTA KANG]

Now that is what im talking about, you guys know your stuff. Im learning new stuff in here everyday.

Hey stumpy I see that you have a 96 SS, and you have lots of bolt-ons. I seen a LT4 kit in Summit Catalog guaranteed to give the LT1 390-425 horses. And from what I read its mostly bolt on too. Do you know any SS owners that have this LT4 conversion kit.

Will the MM ever have a conversion kit?

[Fourth Horseman]

Yes.

The 350 has a single cam in the center of the block that pushes lifters up as it rotates. The cam is connected to the crank by a timing chain or gears, for synchronization with the combustion process. The lifters push drinking straw like metal rods up and down, which open intake and exhaust valves at the other end. The rods you are thinking of, are connecting rods that connect pistons to the crank. In a overhead cam engine such as our 4.6L DOHC, there are no push rods, therefore, no need to clarify the distinction between a push rod and a connecting rod.

Ah, I understand now. I wasn't thinking of connecting rods, actually. I thought the valve train was driven by push rods driving off the crank. I didn't realize that there was a cam in there that handled that. Thanks for the clarification, Mac!

[stumpy]

Now that is what im talking about, you guys know your stuff. Im learning new stuff in here everyday.

Hey stumpy I see that you have a 96 SS, and you have lots of bolt-ons. I seen a LT4 kit in Summit Catalog guaranteed to give the LT1 390-425 horses. And from what I read its mostly bolt on too. Do you know any SS owners that have this LT4 conversion kit.

Will the MM ever have a conversion kit?
Most LT4 kits I've seen are heads, cam intake and rockers. The real LT4 was rated at 330 hp, however, the stock LT4 in my vette dynoed 308 rwhp, ~365 at the crank. GM probably under rated it because it made more power than the LS1 set to debut the following year. Now with a full port and polish on the heads and a bigger cam you could probably get well above 400 with the LT4 kit. But then you could do the same with stock LT1 heads.

I know of one guy with an LT4 in an SS (an actual transplant) and the car runs high 13s. The LT4 is a top end motor and the SS is heavy, not exactly the best combination for a 1/4 mile race. The same motor runs about 1 second faster in the lighter vette.

As for the LT4 kit being a bolt on mod, not in the Impala circle. Bolt-on mean the engine is basically stock, ie. stock cam, stock heads and stock bottom end.