Turbo vs Super Charged

[TripleG]

I just received a call from my J & M Motor Sports my install guys for parts I buy about a new kit from Proturbo. The comes complete with headers and is $2000 cheaper then the supercharger kits that are here on line.

Has anyone installed a Turbo?
Is it true the Turbo has more low end power?

Web Site - http://66.70.20.245/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=78

Any ideas, concerns or knowledge regarding turbos would be appreciated.

[TAF]

I've looked at a turbo installed on a Marauder. Even got to see it up on a rack. The problem with the turbo is the "plumbing". Even though our cars are big, there is NOT a lot of room in the engine bay. So...the turbo that I've seen had to run the exhaust UNDER the K-member to get out, which IMHO is nothing but a "disaster waiting to happen" on the first decent-sized, speedbump.

If you can get someone to figure out a way to get this ^^^ re-routed, then a turbo would be sweet. :up:

[woaface]

The idea is, the Supercharger builds up more quickly, no lag, because it is connected to the accesory belt, which is the first thing to turn when you lay on the gas almost. A turbo however will lag because it has to wait until the exhaust gasses leave and then spools them up and returns them. The lag would be very small on such a large engine, however I've heard some of my rice friends say that it puts a number on the engine because of the amount of backflow (if any).

Porsche makes the case for Turbos in my opinion...but you're not driving a Porsche!

I couldn't imagine a turboed MM lasting more than 70-100,000 miles.

[sailsmen]

I have owned OEM Turbo and OEM S/C.

The prob I had w/ the turbo is the retained heat under the engine compartment. All non-metal parts literally fry, I mean every thing, belts, wiper fluid container, electronics, every thing!

IMHO turbo cuts these under hood components life by 70%.

An S/C does not affect the life of these components.

Also w/ a turbo numerous internal engine parts run hotter simple because the turbo is a big heat sink and you are restricking the exhaust/heat escaping.

[TripleTransAm]

George, the turbo usually doesn't generate more low end power. It's usually the opposite. The turbo's exhaust side has to spin up before the intake side can develop significant pressure, and to do this requires exhaust flow. So that means you need engine revs...

And then there's the catch-22: to develop good intake PSI, you need a big turbo. Bigger turbos are heavier, and take more exhaust flow to spin up quick. So that means more revs.

The other option is to use a smaller turbo, to allow it to spin up without needing too much exhaust flow. But then you get a turbo that doesn't develop much intake pressure.

The popular solution to this situation is multi-turbos... smaller units that, working together, generate a decent amount of intake pressure. But then the plumbing becomes a nightmare.

It's definitely hotter under the hood, as was described. You have to consider all that hot plumbing routing around the engine, under the hood, instead of being routed directly AWAY from the engine bay as with N/A setups. And yes, the turbo itself is a hunk of metal that will suck up heat and subsequently cook things under the hood.

The supercharger is the other alternative, although it sucks up more power due to being driven mechanically off the engine. The advantage is that it spins at a rate directly related to the engine speed... no delay in spinning up like with turbos. The disadvantage is the power it sucks up... with turbos, you're using energy that would otherwise have just been expelled out the exhaust pipe so it's more efficient in the end.

[TripleG]

Thanks All!

This is the exact information I was looking for. I'll be printing these out and taking them over to J & M. The debate will continue! It's spring, I'm in the mod for more power.

:up:

[halucin8]

I have a turbo Miata as well as my MM. It makes dookie loads of power, but yes, there is a bit of turbo lag. From about 2500rpm on there's nothing but power, though. Lots of it. I chose turbo over s/c for my Miata due to the fact that the turbo made much more power.

[stumpy]

S/Cs are nice, and probably best for both drag racing and all around drivability. However, from what I've heard a ride in a super fast turbo car is like a religious experience. :burnout:

[hitchhiker]

I have a turbo Miata as well as my MM. It makes dookie loads of power, but yes, there is a bit of turbo lag. From about 2500rpm on there's nothing but power, though. Lots of it. I chose turbo over s/c for my Miata due to the fact that the turbo made much more power.

With the higher-stall-speed torque converter added to the 2004 MM's from the factory, the turbo lag issue in an 'off the line' situation should be negated.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

David

[TAF]

Thanks All!

This is the exact information I was looking for. I'll be printing these out and taking them over to J & M. The debate will continue! It's spring, I'm in the mod for more power.

:up:
Good Luck! :up:

And...don't let anybody tell you "oh...it's O.K. to have the exhaust run under the K-member" :nono: :down::help: :banned:

[bigslim]

If you notice a lot of top end cars use twin-turbos to help with low-end torque and turbo lag. For a bigger car like these a supercharger is much better. A supercharger has a broader powerband.

[Lidio]

You can try all you want... but nothing will have the instant… power train straining…. Tire shredding… immediate… gratifying toque off idle of a roots type blower.

Before all the Turbo guys get on the defense, I will flat out admit that Turbos are bad-ass, probably one of the baddest power adders you can install on a motor vehicle. But they lag; even the most properly tailored ones lag some. For all out badness and a properly done package Turbos are cool and will give you more bang for the boost then roots or centrifugal blowers. But unless you give it a little brake torque to get it spooling, they simply don’t give that mechanical crank driving blower, big block feel of instant torque right off idle and at low rpm that the Marauder really needs.

Besides most Turbo kits have horrible fit, finish and packaging issues that usually turn an other wise nice car into a rattle trap. For a true street Marauder with completely stock like drivability and the feel or instant torque with out having to change axle gears or torque converter… the roots type blower is one of the best ways to go (but you new I’d say that). :)

[Fin Harder 92]

I have had much turbo experience having had two Buick GN's. Everything depends on the combination. I will say that with the larger displacement motor and a properly sized compressor, lag shouldn't be too much of a concern. You will of course have the heat issue.

I ran a pretty good sized 4 bolt turbo on my last Buford and had a verrrry loose converter with it. It was a pain around town but responded instantly when called on. It would absolutely blow the drag radials away. You've got to give to get.

If you understand the requirements of a strong turbo motor, I think you'll agree the investment would be more than most folks on this board would be willing to make, seeing as how our cars came N/A from the factory. I agree with Lidio, a roots style blower providing that deep down lovin' is what our cars need.

One thing though, a turbo will make gobbs of low end torque. I don't remember who said it wouldn't but man go find a turbo Buick at a stop light and see for yourself.

Take Care

[sailsmen]

This past Wed I saw a GNX and a GN run. THey both really shot out the whole. They were faster off the line then I expected.

[bigslim]

A guy I once knew had a GN and it ran fine. The only thing he had to do was brake torque the car to get the boost up while he lined up to race. IF he built boost, that car was unbeatable.

[1 Bad Merc]

First of all my father bought a 1987 GN new, he added a new chip, changed injectors, 3 inch exhaust, set boast at 19 lbs and with a pair of borrowed slicks 7 days after purchasing it he ran a 12.66. Had a real issue re traction. Not bad for a car that he added just around 450.00 for parts to run off showroom floor. I had a 1988 mustang that I dumped a fortune into and never could beat that GN!
Well once it got around 50,000 miles it went into his garage next to his 64 Impala Chevy SS 409. Still drives them both once in awhile.
Not much lag in turbo if he built the boast up, in fact even with out building boast was their noticeable lag in normal conditions.
Yes you do have more heat but the GN guys actually heat wrapped exhaust systems which helped a lot. The exhaust and headers are the producers of most of the heat. Seems some people think everything under the hood will melt, naaaaaa! One nice thing my father did was to add a adjusteable boast guage inside the car, he could go from 10 pounds to 18-19 pounds with a twist of a nob. After 19 pounds then ya got to worry about head gaskets blowing.
The turbo on the GN's was a sweet set up and exhast systems worked well. Guys if you have a basically stock car or even one with a gear and chip the GN with just a chip will still pull away from ya, they just will and this from a guy who has 2 merc's.
Well if nothing else I hope the turbo's are successful as the more options we have and the other venders are able to recoup some of their investment to develope these units hopefully the cost for everything will come down.
Right now $7000 isn't chicken feed other wise I'd have two of them right now.

[RF Overlord]

Your dad has an '87 GN and a '64 Impala SS 409??!!! :bows:

Is he in the market for an adopted son? OMG...

[FordNut]

Resurrection of a 2004 thread, I thought it was dead long ago.

Still only a couple of turbo Marauders out there though, seldom see any posts from them.

[O's Fan Rich]

Resurrection of a 2004 thread, I thought it was dead long ago.

Still only a couple of turbo Marauders out there though, seldom see any posts from them.

Yeah, that kinda wonders me. Sometime I think that they are a bit shy because of the passion some display for the power adder of their choice.

Still no twin turbo setups like they have out there for Mustangs and Cobras.

[1 Bad Merc]

Yes RF Overlord...he does have a 87 GN (T-Top car) and a 409 SS Impala. The GN is in storage for the past 8 to 10 years with him taking it out now and then. I think my dad starts it every couple of weeks down at the storage place. The Impala is a bright red with black interior original 4 speed car. I got to drive it a couple of times to some high school dances and maybe I might have missed some dances for a little stoplight action or two! Rubber is a ***** to get off of those long quarters and that was when I learned the heavy wax trick! The Impala is his' pride and joy and he would only take it out in the summers and I dont ever remember my mom or anyone else but me getting a chance to drive it. I know he is going to pull the motor and build it a little bit more this coming year.

The GN is a heck of a quick car. I had alot of things done to my 88 LX Mustang and I still couldnt catch it. I would always get it out of the hole but as soon as the turbo spooled up that car would just get up and go! I know he had alot of problems hooking the car up on the street without the drag radials and I remember dad taking it to Precision Turbo -Harry (Owner) to set up the tuning on it. Harry was the one that did all the programming and tuning on Duttweilers 8 second GN and he could make those cars scream. You could say I was a pretty lucky guy growing up and I guess this is were all the gearhead stuff comes from.

The one car my dad owned when I was in grade school that I pestered him not to sell was his 1969 427 4 speed Impala. It wasn't a SS and I remember it did not have a/c but it was one hell of a fast car. I still remember the crappy feeling I had coming home and seeing this big red Olds 88 Regency convertible sitting in the driveway and the Impala gone. Even my dad still regrets that one!

[sailsmen]

I recently swapped drives w/ a friends 409 / Dual 4 Barrel / 4 speed / Black Impala.

It's in original shape.

[BlackHole]

Yeah, that kinda wonders me. Sometime I think that they are a bit shy because of the passion some display for the power adder of their choice.

Still no twin turbo setups like they have out there for Mustangs and Cobras.
I'm working on it but being 100% custom its not Easy/Cheap/and Time consuming. I'm also leaning Trilogy do to the simple fact I know how to make it fast.

But the biggest hurdle is I havn't worked in over 2 months and can't really do anything right now.

[1 Bad Merc]

I wish Turbo Ernie or a couple of these guys would post some stuff on their turbos. The nice thing about turbocharging is you can change the boost pretty easily and set it up depending on if your at the track or driving it normally. I attended alot of the Buick GN meets and I never saw any of the guys having heat related issues IE: Burnt wires, melted hoses, etc. Some of the guys also installed the GNX fender vents in thier cars and that seemed to disipate alot of the heat. I think a turbo Marauder with a set-up like Big Joe P.'s would be really trick.

Zack/Sergeant Mac do you guys have any info on Turbo Ernies' car? I have not seen very many posts on this from him and I am wondering how it's running. Do you guys think he might show up at the Chicken run on Sunday Feb 12? I would love to take a look at his' set-up as I missed him the last time he attended.

Hey Sailsmen...what did you think about that Impala on your test drive? My fathers is a 340 hp 409 and it was pretty fast. Had a big gear in the rear end and I remember having the 1 to 2 speed shift come up awfully fast! My dad also mentioned he was going to change the cam and put on the dual quad system and I cant wait to get a test drive!

[sailsmen]

I did not get on it real hard.

It was fast. My Marauder is definitely faster.

The Impala handled amazingly well.

I really like that Impala. No a/c or power any thing, a true drag stripper.

[jerrym3]

I owned an 85 TBird TurboCoupe back in 1985. Never had an issue with heat under the hood.

Car was 5 speed, so spooling up was not a big issue.

Ran like a V8 with the mileage of a 4 cylinder.

Totaled it at 101,000 miles in 1994. Still had the original clutch, and the original brakes had just been changed at 91,000 miles.

Also had the best seats of any car that I've ever owned.

One of the more interesting cars that I've ever owned, right up there with my 1965 Corvette and 1968 Merc Cyclone GT fastback.

[Todd]

I wish Turbo Ernie or a couple of these guys would post some stuff on their turbos. The nice thing about turbocharging is you can change the boost pretty easily and set it up depending on if your at the track or driving it normally. I attended alot of the Buick GN meets and I never saw any of the guys having heat related issues IE: Burnt wires, melted hoses, etc. Some of the guys also installed the GNX fender vents in thier cars and that seemed to disipate alot of the heat. I think a turbo Marauder with a set-up like Big Joe P.'s would be really trick.

Zack/Sergeant Mac do you guys have any info on Turbo Ernies' car? I have not seen very many posts on this from him and I am wondering how it's running. Do you guys think he might show up at the Chicken run on Sunday Feb 12? I would love to take a look at his' set-up as I missed him the last time he attended.

Hey Sailsmen...what did you think about that Impala on your test drive? My fathers is a 340 hp 409 and it was pretty fast. Had a big gear in the rear end and I remember having the 1 to 2 speed shift come up awfully fast! My dad also mentioned he was going to change the cam and put on the dual quad system and I cant wait to get a test drive!



http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23462



I just noticed your post...


I have posted up info and talked with a number of members over the phone and by pm.....

I am in north east florida so I doubt you will see me aat any shows. But I would be willing to answer questions.

A few guys from this board have seen my car with the turbo on it.

[stumpy]

SC is nice, but.....

Turbo = religious experience!

Acceleration under turbo boost is, well, frightening :eek:

BTW, I raced a lady in PA at Maple Grove that had a turbo MM. It belonged to a couple that had just purchased the car from someone in Texas. I don't know who they were and haven't seen them since. It ran pretty descent.

[Vortech347]

Properly setup turbos will 99% be faster on normal cars. Rail cars and Nitromethane cars are a whole nother story.

However they're never simple to install. This is why I went with a blower on my stang vs a turbo. I didn't want the headaches I've seen my turbo buddies go through.