Need electrician input

[Donald]

I need to move a circuit breaker from one phase of the wiring to the other to make room for a new breaker. Is there any electrical reason I can't or shouldn't?

[EMAS]

Maybe, it all depends on what it is running. Some times for longer runs or in cases where you might have alternating circuits they will use 3 wire cable to run two circuits. Those must be on opposite legs to prevent overloading the neutral wired. The idea is that the neutral will only carry the difference between the two hot wires. So if you've got a 10 amp load on one leg and a 15 amp on the other then the neutral will only carry 5 and the overall voltage drop will be less as only 5 amps will be traveling back to the panel.

So if you've got a red wire on that breaker then it probably needs to stay on that leg but even if it is black it could be shared. So you need to follow the hot to where it exits the panel and see if it is part of a 3 wire cable.

If it just goes to a standard 2 wire cable then it doesn't matter which leg it is on.

[fastblackmerc]

If you have questions, get a professional to do the job.

[RF Overlord]

To add to what EMAS said, you really should put an Amprobe on the circuit you're considering moving and see what it's actually carrying, and also do the same for each of the 2 legs coming into the panel to be sure you aren't going to unbalance them too badly.

[Donald]

Left leg:
Dual 30 amp labeled heat pump
Dual 30 amp labeled Dryer

Right leg:
Single 20 amp labeled water heater
Single 15 amp labeled Lights/plugs
Single 15 amp labeled Lights/plugs
Single 15 amp labeled Lights/plugs (want to move)
Single 15 amp labeled GFI
Dual 30 amp labeled Air Cond

So left leg has max coverage of 120 amps and right leg has 140.

The one I want to move is a black wire paired with a white to neutral and a copper ground. It controls 2 outlets (door opener and house vac unit), ceiling lamp and 2 outside lamps all related to the garage. What is strange is I have a normal gas dryer plugged into a regular outlet. There is nothing plugged into the dryer outlet so I could remove the dryer breakers freeing up 60 amps of coverage. Since I have a heat pump I think the one labeled Air cond is actually for the blower motor in the exchanger in the house. It can't really need 60 amps of coverage.

Bottom line is I think load wise it will not hurt to move the breaker. Especially since the items on the left leg are not used that much. The item I am adding is to bridge X10 signals between the 2 phases. It does not draw much but their diagram show it being connected to breakers on each leg.

If I leave the dryer breakers in after the swap the left will have 150 of coverage and the left stays at 140.

Given the current situation the actual usage is heavy on the right leg and almost nothing on the left as the heat pump is hardly used. No one in that end of the house to heat or cool. :)

[Donald]

I understand what you are saying but if everyone did that whole sections of this forum would not be needed. :)



If you have questions, get a professional to do the job.

[EMAS]

I think you are confusing the side of the panel the breakers are on with the leg they are on. They alternate as they go from top to bottom. Those 30 amp "dual" breakers for the dryer, heat pump, and AC draw from both legs and provide 30 amps of power at 220 volts.

Here is a picture of a typical breaker panel with only a couple of the breakers installed.
http://wireyourownhouse.com/panel/images/panel_meter.png

Note how you can see how the breaker installed on the right side of the panel is connected to the buss on the left.

The thing that confuses me it the "single" 20a breaker labeled water heater. The majority of water heaters operate on 220v which require that double breaker to connect to both legs. Now the under counter instant water heaters are often 110v.

[jaywish]

I am NOT an electrician so this is just general conversation.

If we look at the loads you described, for the breakers going down the left side of panel, assuming that the left bar first supplies the first lug.

Left bank of breakers
Bar A (left) 30
Bar B (right) 30
A 30
B 30

So the load from the breakers on the left is 50/50 (60 amps each) right and left as is normal for 220 breakers.

Going down the right breakers.
Right bank of Breakers
Bar B (right) 20A
Bar A (left) 15A
B 15A
A 15A (one you want to change)
B 15A
A 30A
B 30A
Totals A =45A
Totals B =80A

Combined totals from left and right breaker banks
A =105A
B =140A
Combined 245A

You can see the A bar has a lower load
The 5h slot (currently unused) on the left bank of breakers goes to the A bar
Why are you moving breakers instead of just putting the new one on the left bank in the first open slot? If you do not have to move any existing breakers the concern for multiwire circuits (red wires and blacks) goes away. Assuming they are done correctly in the first place.

[Donald]

I am adding a X10 bridge. It has a wire for the neutral and 1 wire for each leg. So I need to add a breaker to each leg.

But I just realized the 2 empty slots are 1 on leg A and 1 on leg B. So I don't have to move anything. :2thumbs:

As for the water heater, it is gas. So a 20 amp is fine. When built the house was mainly electric because it used a propane tank. To minimize gas usage I think only the water heater used gas. I believe initially the house had electric stove, electric dryer and 2 heat pumps for heat and AC. When the gas company blessed the street with a natural gas pipe the previous owner replaced the electric dryer with gas.

Now that I understand the zigzag buss bars I see how the electric dryer got 220V. It is across the 2 legs just like the stove.

Based on the picture I have A leg at 135 and B leg at 125. While what I am adding will be 2 15 amp breakers the actual new load is minimal. The unit just repeats X10 signals it sees on leg A onto leg B and vice-versa. It does amplify them up to 5 volts. Plus there is no electric dryer. That takes 30 amps off each leg. :)

[Merrill]

If it is a gas, power vent water heater that would explain the 110 power source.

[RF Overlord]

There is nothing plugged into the dryer outlet so I could remove the dryer breakers freeing up 60 amps of coverage. That's exactly what I did as I have a gas dryer. I used the old electric drier slots for 2 more individual circuits for a workbench and a utility outlet I attached to the panel.

It sounds like you have it sorted now...rock on. :rock:

[EMAS]

I am adding a X10 bridge. It has a wire for the neutral and 1 wire for each leg. So I need to add a breaker to each leg.

But I just realized the 2 empty slots are 1 on leg A and 1 on leg B. So I don't have to move anything. :2thumbs:

As for the water heater, it is gas. So a 20 amp is fine. When built the house was mainly electric because it used a propane tank. To minimize gas usage I think only the water heater used gas. I believe initially the house had electric stove, electric dryer and 2 heat pumps for heat and AC. When the gas company blessed the street with a natural gas pipe the previous owner replaced the electric dryer with gas.

Now that I understand the zigzag buss bars I see how the electric dryer got 220V. It is across the 2 legs just like the stove.

Based on the picture I have A leg at 135 and B leg at 125. While what I am adding will be 2 15 amp breakers the actual new load is minimal. The unit just repeats X10 signals it sees on leg A onto leg B and vice-versa. It does amplify them up to 5 volts. Plus there is no electric dryer. That takes 30 amps off each leg. :)

You are correct that your two empty slots are on the A and B leg but your labeling of what is on each leg is wrong.

Swap A & B down the right side for what is on each leg. IE the breaker marked water heater is on the A leg, the cheater 2 15a circuits in one breaker is on B ect.

[Donald]

Well, I just read the panel and wire tag again. It says Washer, not water. This makes sense.

But I did just find a sub-panel in the closet with the exchanger for the heat pump and the water heater. It is a dual 40 amp breaker. The heat pump system has an electric coil aux heat source if I set the thermostat for it. Not sure if it comes off the panel I have been looking at or it connects back to the main panel at the other end of the house. Not germane to my original question.

So I am good.

Many thanks for all the help, everyone.