Big Brakes on a not-so-big Budget? YEP

[lifespeed]

That's not necessary. :confused:

It is necessary if you get air in it. To assume that it is always possible to replace brake hydraulics without introducing air could be optimistic.

[fastblackmerc]

When I upgraded to the TCE kit I just gravity bled all is / was OK. Main thing to remember is to NOT allow the master cylinder go dry.

[Zack]

I thought your brakes improved tremendously after having that done. After swapping the brake lines I thought it would be necessary

I'm still having troubles Im pretty sure my ABS pump is no good, so Im deleting the ABS altogether.

But doing an IDS bleed in not necessary unless you can't achieve a good pedal.

[guspech750]

When I upgraded to the TCE kit I just gravity bled all is / was OK. Main thing to remember is to NOT allow the master cylinder go dry.

Yeah, I just made sure the reservoir was full at all times. No air when I installed my Wilwoods and SS lines on all four corners. Brakes and pedal feel are rock solid. Was pretty easy actually. :)


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[fastblackmerc]

Yeah, I just made sure the reservoir was full at all times. No air when I installed my Wilwoods and SS lines on all four corners. Brakes and pedal feel are rock solid. Was pretty easy actually. :)


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

:beer:

:banana2:

[lji372]

Now that you can all stop quicker- watch the rear view mirror :eek:

[ts-pa]

When I upgraded to the TCE kit I just gravity bled all is / was OK. Main thing to remember is to NOT allow the master cylinder go dry.

When I did the SS brake lines in my 2000 & caliper change out on my MM, this was the absolute best advice that I had received from anyone!

[JBeezy]

Only thing I want different is some slotted and/or vented rotors

[Zack]

Only thing I want different is some slotted and/or vented rotors

Do you auto cross?
Not really necessary if not.

[JBeezy]

No. Just looks better :-)

[Green96]

Do you auto cross?
Not really necessary if not.

Personally I feel that they keep the pads scuffed off a little bit and prevent glazing. mmmm glazing.

[lifespeed]

Personally I feel that they keep the pads scuffed off a little bit and prevent glazing. mmmm glazing.

I have also heard slotted may help some at reducing pad transfer, which results in pulsing rotors. Not sure how much truth there is to this, but as someone who has had a great deal of trouble with this issue on a 14" Wilwood kit I may well try slotted next time.

[Accumulator]

Jerry & Zack- Got 'em! Thanks, much appreciated.

[ts-pa]

Jerry, I just received the brackets today. I must protest as the quality exceeds the cost, translation, it's a damn good value! ;)

I know of many machine shops that would skip machining the chamfers all around as well as not adding radii on the vertical edges. I have also seen others with contours with non-tangent radii, very sloppy. Yours looks great, very well done!

The only thing I'm going to do them is to either lightly bead blast them a bit or to hit them with scotch brite to even out the surface finish. This would allow good adhesion should I choose to paint them.

[lji372]

Jerry, I just received the brackets today. I must protest as the quality exceeds the cost, translation, it's a damn good value! ;)

I know of many machine shops that would skip machining the chamfers all around as well as not adding radii on the vertical edges. I have also seen others with contours with non-tangent radii, very sloppy. Yours looks great, very well done!

The only thing I'm going to do them is to either lightly bead blast them a bit or to hit them with scotch brite to even out the surface finish. This would allow good adhesion should I choose to paint them.


Thanks for noticing :bows:

[Zack]

Jerry is dreamy

[lji372]

Jerry is fat, has a big mouth and a bigger problem with authority, but is very dreamy

Fixed:banana2::banana2:

[JBeezy]

2010 FORD MUSTANG 5.4L V8 Superchargedhttp://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/Gear.gifBrake/Wheel Hub : RotorRelated PartsPOWER STOP Part # AR8173XPR Power Stop Extreme Performance Drilled and Slotted Brake Rotors (Only 6 Remaining)
Front; Base Model
Part is designed for MX Market vehicles $44.79 $0.00 $89.58
+ Sold in packs of 2 (http://www.rockauto.com/lang/en/answers.html#PACKS); Price reflects cost of each individual item, not the

Not cheaper but I like the red powder coated calipers, IF they don't say CORVETTE![/QUOTE]
What are the thoughts on these?

[Krytin]

2010 FORD MUSTANG 5.4L V8 Superchargedhttp://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/Gear.gifBrake/Wheel Hub : RotorRelated PartsPOWER STOP Part # AR8173XPR Power Stop Extreme Performance Drilled and Slotted Brake Rotors (Only 6 Remaining)
Front; Base Model
Part is designed for MX Market vehicles $44.79 $0.00 $89.58
+ Sold in packs of 2 (http://www.rockauto.com/lang/en/answers.html#PACKS); Price reflects cost of each individual item, not the

Not cheaper but I like the red powder coated calipers, IF they don't say CORVETTE!
What are the thoughts on these?[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY the ones I would buy - if I ever shoot the lock off my wallet and get the nice adapters!

[Zack]

Jerry sold out of brackets. Crapshoot if he's making more

[JBeezy]

Exactly why I went ahead and jumped on a set. I wanted to wait

[ts-pa]

Exactly why I went ahead and jumped on a set. I wanted to wait

Me too, but I needed brakes anyway and jumped on a set.

[ginger]

Dammit! Busy work schedule I was planning on buying a set with my next check.

Hope we can get enough interest to go another round with these.

[Krytin]

Dammit! Busy work schedule I was planning on buying a set with my next check.

Hope we can get enough interest to go another round with these.

yep -wasn't ready for brakes yet but will be in the spring. maybe before then.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Well I'd probably be down for a set in the spring or so.

[ginger]

How many need to pre-pay to do another run?

[JBeezy]

That's a question for Lj and Todd

[JBeezy]

Received my brackets today. Time for rotors. Thanks Jerry

[JBeezy]

What do you guys think about this? Upon my research for rotors, I fell upon this at O'Reilly Auto.

http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BBR0/680497RGS/01310.oap?year=2010&make=Ford&model=Mustang&vi=1444302&ck=Search_rotors_C0062_1444302 _1075&keyword=rotors&pt=C0062&ppt=C0009.

680497RGS is O'REILLY auto part number.

NAPA PART Number is 880497.

I looked into this since there is no NAPA within 20 miles of me anymore.

O'Reilly is 1/2 the cost of NAPA.

[Zack]

Napa rotors are $64 normal price, $58 on sale (which they run frequently)

Where are you seeing the price discrepancy???

[JBeezy]

I guess I looked at your first post and saw $125. I thought that was each. My mistake. Good to go either way then. Thanks for correcting me. I'm headed to the store now.

To add. The guy I called in the nearest store to me quoted me $110 ea. Not sure why.

[Mike M]

I want drilled rotors (chicks dig them). What year and model am I ordering them for?

[Sully008]

I want drilled rotors (chicks dig them). What year and model am I ordering them for?

You need to search for 2007-up Shelby GT500 Mustang rotors.

[Mike M]

You need to search for 2007-up Shelby GT500 Mustang rotors.

Thank You.

[clintons4]

How many need to pre-pay to do another run?

+1 on this. I will be in need of front brakes eventually so this would be a nice upgrade with minimal cost.

[lji372]

Would like 10 but could do it with 8 prepays.

[JBeezy]

Would like 10 but could do it with 8 prepays.
And Lj comes thru again. [emoji106]

[ginger]

+1 on this. I will be in need of front brakes eventually so this would be a nice upgrade with minimal cost.

I'm down whenever. Let's get some folks to buy some brakets! I can pretty much swing the 155 whenever. That's the price right?

Rotors and calipers and pads can come later, but I'm not missing out on a second run of brackets.

[Sully008]

Ah crap. I'm assuming that 16" steel wheels aren't going to fit over these, right? I use these for winter.

[Zack]

Ah crap. I'm assuming that 16" steel wheels aren't going to fit over these, right? I use these for winter.

Not a chance. Only 18's and up will fit

[Sully008]

Not a chance. Only 18's and up will fit

Ugh. That's what I thought. Guess I'll have one more winter with the 16s and look for 18" steelies next year.

[ginger]

Bump for interested parties. Let's get 10 people so we can get another run of brackets in the works!

[lji372]

Bump for interested parties. Let's get 10 people so we can get another run of brackets in the works!


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[lji372]

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[ginger]

Payment sent

[lji372]

Send payment via PAYPAL of $155 to ( lji _ 372 @ yahoo. com )
Lji_372@yahoo.com as a GIFT


1 musclemerc
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[Black Terror]

Send payment of $155 to
Lji_372@yahoo.com as a GIFT


1 musclemerc
2ginger
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Payment sent

[grandepau00]

Would like 10 but could do it with 8 prepays.
Payment sent.

[BtBB]

I missed out the first time and will not be letting that happen again! I need me some brakes!

[BullyRauder]

Payment sent via PayPal. Please put me on the list for the next run.

[1stMerc]

Originally Posted by lji372 http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1406064#post1 406064)
Send payment of $155 to
Lji_372@yahoo.com (Lji_372@yahoo.com) as a GIFT


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Payment sent

[JBeezy]

Originally Posted by lji372 http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1406064#post1 406064)
Send payment of $155 to
Lji_372@yahoo.com (Lji_372@yahoo.com) as a GIFT


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Payment sent
1stMerc where have you been buddy? I see you jumping in on the brake upgrade...[emoji106]

[1stMerc]

1stMerc where have you been buddy? I see you jumping in on the brake upgrade...[emoji106]

JBeezy, How's it going?

Don't want to derail thread, but briefly.

Been sick in the hospital, and recooperating at parents for a while.
Had a type 2 diabetes episode (hyperglycemia). Barely made it.
Doing a lot better now, but still not 100%.
Thank God for family and friends.

Changed password with all the hacking scares and forgot the new one.

Yeah, meant to get in on the first run, but other issues were occurring so couldn't keep up with thread.

[JBeezy]

JBeezy, How's it going?

Don't want to derail thread, but briefly.

Been sick in the hospital, and recooperating at parents for a while.
Had a type 2 diabetes episode (hyperglycemia). Barely made it.
Doing a lot better now, but still not 100%.
Thank God for family and friends.

Changed password with all the hacking scares and forgot the new one.

Yeah, meant to get in on the first run, but other issues were occurring so couldn't keep up with thread.
Sorry to hear. Glad your doing better. Keep m posted on your brake upgrade. Back on topic

[lji372]

1 musclemerc
2 ginger
3 Black Terror
4 1stMerc
5 BullyRauder
6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
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[lji372]

fellas, i really appreciate the prepays.

just one thing though
if i dont get a screen name in the paypal note how can i add you to the list, and if i don't get a shipping address how do i get them to you??

could everyone who has paid please shoot me an email with your shipping addy and username. lji_372@yahoo.com

[Zack]

My brakes are still stopping with a vengeance

[Logizyme]

Paid.........

[Zack]

I love jerry

[guspech750]

My brakes are still stopping with a vengeance

I have a DTR. No need for brakes.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[lji372]

1 musclemerc
2 ginger
3 Black Terror
4 1stMerc
5 BullyRauder
6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
8 Logizyme
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Time to order material and hardware :banana2:

[Mike M]

I have not had time to install Zacks upgrade brake kit yet but does anybody else that installed it have any feedback yet?

[Filby'sMarauder]

1 musclemerc
2 ginger
3 Black Terror
4 1stMerc
5 BullyRauder
6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
8 Logizyme
9 Filby'sMarauder
10

Added me to the list. Just sent the money.

Brian

[ginger]

Stoked about this!

[ginger]

Question about c5 calipers. They are 2-piston, correct? I'm guessing reman will be the cheapest, but are there any 4-piston options that will work with these brackets?

[Mike M]

Question about c5 calipers. They are 2-piston, correct? I'm guessing reman will be the cheapest, but are there any 4-piston options that will work with these brackets?

You mean C5 as in Corvette C5?

[ginger]

Introducing another joint collaboration between myself and lji372 (love that guy)

Although not 100% complete in development, the meat and potatoes are here for me to share with you.
Here is the list:

GT500 Rotors from NAPA: $125 part # 880497 (You need to open the hub I.D .003, easily accomplished with a die grinder)
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Brake-Rotor-Only-Front-Ultra-Premium/_/R-UBP880497_0387025606
C5 Corvette Semi-Loaded Calipers w/brackets: ~$300 (looking for better deals)
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Caliper-w-Hardware-Left-Front-Eclipse-Semi-Loaded-Remfd/_/R-SEBSE5254A_0248561055
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Caliper-w-Hardware-Right-Front-Eclipse-Semi-Loaded-Remfd/_/R-SEBSE5253A_0248561065
Stainless Steel Brake Lines with brackets and fittings: Todd@TCE
Ceramic Brake Pads: $95 (You can buy whatever you want)
Custom brackets with Bolts/washers: $155 Shipped

When this is all done, I will provide part numbers, links, basic instructions and all photos I have taken.
All that will be provided to you from the site is brackets. (maybe the bolts) You must look off of my provided recipe to supply the rest.

WOOOHOOOOOOOO... :bows::bows::bows: to Me & Jerry :coolman:

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/Marauder%20Repairs/9D8DB8E2-DC36-4361-8F61-9D0D8EED18E9_zpspmedcgbx.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/Marauder%20Repairs/9D8DB8E2-DC36-4361-8F61-9D0D8EED18E9_zpspmedcgbx.jpg.h tml)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/Marauder%20Repairs/B8A23FA5-6855-4F77-8D3D-0F34B95F2EEA_zpsh1zkenpu.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/Marauder%20Repairs/B8A23FA5-6855-4F77-8D3D-0F34B95F2EEA_zpsh1zkenpu.jpg.h tml)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/Marauder%20Repairs/57EBF4EE-11CC-4A22-AECF-901BF509192C_zpsaae8bd1a.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/Marauder%20Repairs/57EBF4EE-11CC-4A22-AECF-901BF509192C_zpsaae8bd1a.jpg.h tml)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/Marauder%20Repairs/12254CF1-4F5B-4B9B-92A8-7DEC78C435D3_zpswa0et4m0.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/Marauder%20Repairs/12254CF1-4F5B-4B9B-92A8-7DEC78C435D3_zpswa0et4m0.jpg.h tml)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/Marauder%20Repairs/D607A98F-D5D8-4ECC-AD0F-8C7DF532DA86_zpspnre1ivo.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/Marauder%20Repairs/D607A98F-D5D8-4ECC-AD0F-8C7DF532DA86_zpspnre1ivo.jpg.h tml)

Keep in mind my Calipers were modified by Baer. The calipers you will get from NAPA may say Corvette on them....Im not sure.

No more 500 dollar rotor replacements. No more $1400+ big brake price tags.

Off the shelf parts, easy recipe to make this yourself, why did it take me 10 years? :shake:
Yes, yes I do.

[Mike M]

Ok, I'm confused, what calipers am I ordering for this mod?

[ajdereicup]

1 musclemerc
2 ginger
3 Black Terror
4 1stMerc
5 BullyRauder
6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
8 Logizyme
9 Filby'sMarauder
10 ajdereicup

(I put my username and address in the paypal message. Let me know if you cant see it and I'll email it or PM it to you thanks)

[Zack]

Use a 2001 C5 vette as what you need.
Anything 98-04 is the same though.
All info was in the first post

[Logizyme]

Question about c5 calipers. They are 2-piston, correct? I'm guessing reman will be the cheapest, but are there any 4-piston options that will work with these brackets?

The C5 corvette calipers are aluminum 2 piston. The whole point of this setup is that the C5 calipers are both inexpensive and have ample wheel clearance, as well as the ability to clear and work with a large (14in) rotor.

[ginger]

The C5 corvette calipers are aluminum 2 piston. The whole point of this setup is that the C5 calipers are both inexpensive and have ample wheel clearance, as well as the ability to clear and work with a large (14in) rotor.
Gotcha! Just wanted to be sure before I started ordering parts

[Logizyme]

Got my calipers pads rotors and lines - excited.

[lji372]

Material came in at end of the day today.
May get started on them tomorrow.
Still waiting on bolts and washers. Local supplier doesn't stock a wide variety of metric stuff.

[License2Bill]

Do you have material for additional sets aside from the first 10? If so, I'll take a set. PayPal at the ready to go

[lji372]

Yes sir

Paypal away:banana2:

[lji372]

1 musclemerc
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6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
8 Logizyme
9 Filby'sMarauder
10 ajdereicup
11 Burt Ragio
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[License2Bill]

Money Sent!
1 musclemerc
2 ginger
3 Black Terror
4 1stMerc
5 BullyRauder
6 BTBB
7 grandepau00
8 Logizyme
9 Filby'sMarauder
10 ajdereicup
11 Burt Ragio
12 License2Bill
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[massacre]

Does anyone have the measurement for the spacing for the mounting bolts on the spindle?
If these will work for me I'd be interested.

[Zack]

Does anyone have the measurement for the spacing for the mounting bolts on the spindle?
If these will work for me I'd be interested.

I plan on doing a similar brake upgrade on my 93 lincoln soon if you can be patient

[ginger]

I plan on doing a similar brake upgrade on my 93 lincoln soon if you can be patient
I know someone with a 96 Marquis who will be very interested. 600+hp does not go well with *****y brakes.

[massacre]

I plan on doing a similar brake upgrade on my 93 lincoln soon if you can be patient

I have tons of time bud, no rush here :)

[Sully008]

Got my calipers pads rotors and lines - excited.


Nice! Which C5 calipers and pads did you go with and from what source?

[Logizyme]

I've had a few requests for the part numbers I am using, so I figure I'll just post them here. I'm refreshing the rears at the same time as this front mod, so I'll post those numbers too.

Front and rear SS lines and brackets - "Zack" kit, and several 12oz bottles of Wilwood 570 from Todd/TCE (http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/marauder/kits-17/)

I obtained calipers and rotors locally, for two reasons, counting shipping the price point is better, and dealing with shipping back core's on the calipers is annoying. But these parts can also be obtained online, I suggest rockauto for the calipers and rotors. I selected Centric for my calipers and rotors, I have long used centric for customers brake parts and I have much trust in their quality and they come at a reasonable price point.

(1) Centric 14162127 - Right side front C5 Corvette caliper - without Corvette logo ($50 + $50 core)
(1) Centric 14162128 - Left side front C5 Corvette caliper - without Corvette logo ($50 + $50 core)
(2) Centric 12061089 - Front premium rotor GT500 ($65 each)
(2) Centric 12061073 - Rear premium rotor Marauder ($40 each)

Since I will be doing some autocross with these pads I am going with Performance Friction brake pads. I had completely fried brand new OEM Ford/Motorcraft pads in one track day, replaced them with Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads and by the end of my next track day they still looked new and they performed well all day. They are also used widely in fleet vehicles for both their performance and longevitiy. Made in the USA. I ordered two sets of each brake pad kit so that I'll have spares to take with me to the track just in case - but I do not anticipate needing them. Aquired brake pads through Amazon/Ebay.

Performance Friction 0731.20 - Carbon Metallic C5 Corvette front brake pads - ($55)
Performance Friction 0932.20 - Carbon Metallic Marauder rear brake pads - ($50)

Performance Friction lists a part number for their slightly more aggressive Carbon Metallic Z-Rated pads for the front Corvette pads, but as I understand it, they are no longer produced, I was able to find a seller on Ebay that had them, I ordered a set and when they arrived found they were NOS - manufactured in 2007. I have not yet decided which brake pad I will use on the front.

Performance Friction 0731.10 - Carbon Metallic Z-Rated C5 Corvette front pads ($75)

If your not doing some very heavy braking and want a more daily driver type pad I highly reccomend Centric Posi-Quiet Ceramic, or if you want something more in the middle, Centric Posi-Quiet Semi-metallic. Hawk HPS pads seem to be popular, but I've read mixed reviews and their price point seems a bit high. Besides Centric, Raybestos makes quality rotors and calipers, I would not hesitate to use them. Basically avoid the cheap economy calipers and rotors and you'll be alright.

[JBeezy]

I've had a few requests for the part numbers I am using, so I figure I'll just post them here. I'm refreshing the rears at the same time as this front mod, so I'll post those numbers too.

Front and rear SS lines and brackets - "Zack" kit, and several 12oz bottles of Wilwood 570 from Todd/TCE (http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/marauder/kits-17/)

I obtained calipers and rotors locally, for two reasons, counting shipping the price point is better, and dealing with shipping back core's on the calipers is annoying. But these parts can also be obtained online, I suggest rockauto for the calipers and rotors. I selected Centric for my calipers and rotors, I have long used centric for customers brake parts and I have much trust in their quality and they come at a reasonable price point.

(1) Centric 14162127 - Right side front C5 Corvette caliper - without Corvette logo ($50 + $50 core)
(1) Centric 14162128 - Left side front C5 Corvette caliper - without Corvette logo ($50 + $50 core)
(2) Centric 12061089 - Front premium rotor GT500 ($65 each)
(2) Centric 12061073 - Rear premium rotor Marauder ($40 each)

Since I will be doing some autocross with these pads I am going with Performance Friction brake pads. I had completely fried brand new OEM Ford/Motorcraft pads in one track day, replaced them with Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads and by the end of my next track day they still looked new and they performed well all day. They are also used widely in fleet vehicles for both their performance and longevitiy. Made in the USA. I ordered two sets of each brake pad kit so that I'll have spares to take with me to the track just in case - but I do not anticipate needing them. Aquired brake pads through Amazon/Ebay.

Performance Friction 0731.20 - Carbon Metallic C5 Corvette front brake pads - ($55)
Performance Friction 0932.20 - Carbon Metallic Marauder rear brake pads - ($50)

Performance Friction lists a part number for their slightly more aggressive Carbon Metallic Z-Rated pads for the front Corvette pads, but as I understand it, they are no longer produced, I was able to find a seller on Ebay that had them, I ordered a set and when they arrived found they were NOS - manufactured in 2007. I have not yet decided which brake pad I will use on the front.

Performance Friction 0731.10 - Carbon Metallic Z-Rated C5 Corvette front pads ($75)

If your not doing some very heavy braking and want a more daily driver type pad I highly reccomend Centric Posi-Quiet Ceramic, or if you want something more in the middle, Centric Posi-Quiet Semi-metallic. Hawk HPS pads seem to be popular, but I've read mixed reviews and their price point seems a bit high. Besides Centric, Raybestos makes quality rotors and calipers, I would not hesitate to use them. Basically avoid the cheap economy calipers and rotors and you'll be alright.
Did those calipers come with the brackets as well?

[Logizyme]

Yes calipers include brackets

[Sully008]

Thanks for the info, Logizyme. Part #s saved for future reference.

[Mike M]

Do they offer drilled and slotted rotors?

[Logizyme]

Yeah Centric offers both rotors in various options, check Rock auto for part numbers, they have most of the Centric line.

[1Marauder]

thank you for reposting all the numbers, I really appreciate it.

[lji372]

this run is sold out!

All brackets have been shipped :bows:

[Zack]

I've learned that the ebay brand Callahan is made by Powerstop Brakes, out of Bedford Park, IL.

This is humorous because Callahan was the ficticious company in the movie Tommy Boy from 1994 lol..
Anyway, they get great reviews and look at the price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-Premium-Performance-Drilled-Slotted-SPORT-Brake-Disc-Rotors-Shelby-GT500-/301147544495?pt=Motors_Car_Tru ck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item461dcadbaf&vxp=mtr

[Sully008]

Nice find! Looks like this is the rotor I'll be going with.


EDIT: $115 for shipping. Somebody's making money off of that #. But $248 for a set of rotors isn't too bad.



I've learned that the ebay brand Callahan is made by Powerstop Brakes, out of Bedford Park, IL.

This is humorous because Callahan was the ficticious company in the movie Tommy Boy from 1994 lol..
Anyway, they get great reviews and look at the price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-Premium-Performance-Drilled-Slotted-SPORT-Brake-Disc-Rotors-Shelby-GT500-/301147544495?pt=Motors_Car_Tru ck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item461dcadbaf&vxp=mtr

[Zack]

Its free shipping brah

EDIT: CANADA STRIKES AGAIN.

[Sully008]

Its free shipping brah

EDIT: CANADA STRIKES AGAIN.

Yeah, sucks being the US's hat sometimes, lol.

[Todd TCE]

And many of these brands guys are simply 'branded' items form Centric who is the true importer. And ultimately the producer of them. Centric sells under a variety of labels. Anyone who think that there are truly 6-10 companies "making rotors" is foolish. On the other hand...probably 10-15 of them making them look pretty and boxing them up for consumption by the public! lol

[lifespeed]

Anybody put some miles on this setup?

[Zack]

Callahan rotors came yesterday.....incredible quality for $135 shipped.
Winning!

[Zack]

Anybody put some miles on this setup?

I don't think any of the 20 bracket buyers have even installed this yet.

[Sully008]

Anybody put some miles on this setup?

Nope. And won't until next spring, unfortunately.

[Mebot]

I don't think any of the 20 bracket buyers have even installed this yet.
Wait for after this upcoming weekend for Logizyme's review. He should be installing his brakes today or tomorrow, then autocrossing his Marauder on Sunday

[License2Bill]

Received the brackets the other day. Outstanding craftsmanship. Thanks for making this possible!

[Logizyme]

Wait for after this upcoming weekend for Logizyme's review. He should be installing his brakes today or tomorrow, then autocrossing his Marauder on Sunday

If they get here before the weekend! rawr!

[Mebot]

If they get here before the weekend! rawr!
Hopefully they'll arrive today

[Logizyme]

Very shiney! Looks good, I'll be installing tomorrow. I'll take some pics and try to write up an install guide.

[SGT_MERC]

I can't believe I missed the second run. I hope there's another, I want to do this over the winter.

[Zack]

Very shiney! Looks good, I'll be installing tomorrow. I'll take some pics and try to write up an install guide.

Its like this:

Open up the bore on the GT500 rotor, grind spindle until bracket clears, bolt everything on.

Done.

[JBeezy]

Its like this:

Open up the bore on the GT500 rotor, grind spindle until bracket clears, bolt everything on.

Done.
For some of us shade tree mechanics, can you post a pic of the area of the rotor that needs to be opened up? I guess if I was in the process of installing this setup it would be more clear. Don't flame me too bad. [emoji22]

[Zack]

For some of us shade tree mechanics, can you post a pic of the area of the rotor that needs to be opened up? I guess if I was in the process of installing this setup it would be more clear. Don't flame me too bad. [emoji22]

Its been posted...:flamer:

[JBeezy]

Its been posted...:flamer:
After looking back at the pics it's actually pretty clear what needs to be opened up, duuhh. That's what lack of sleep does for me. Not sure what I was thinking.

[Zack]

After looking back at the pics it's actually pretty clear what needs to be opened up, duuhh. That's what lack of sleep does for me. Not sure what I was thinking.

Nothing needs to be opened up, ground off yes.

You can't make a mistake....grind aluminum until the bracket holes line up with the factory holes. Doesn't get any easier.

[Logizyme]

Currently working on a complete write-up, but I'll wait until I return from the track tomorrow to finish it up. But to answer some key questions here and for anyone going forward for the install this weekend, here is some of my findings:

My backing plate did not need to be removed, no clearance issues. I'd guess about 8mm of clearance between the plate rivets and the rotor. I left mine on.

Grinding the caliper mount ears is very minimal and quick. I used a die grinder with a coarse resurface disc, your really just needing to polish off the edge of the ear, I did not remove more than 2mm of material.

The rotor centerbore was slightly more difficult, I used a die grinder with a carbide grinding bit. Go around a few times, then test fit the rotor, if it does not slide all the way on go around a few more times and repeat until it fits. The iron is more difficult to grind away.

Finally a big issue for me was caliper clearance aginst the wheels weights. My outer tape weights hit the fins at the end of the caliper. Two part repair, first grind down the 8 fins on each caliper from the outer edge of the caliper to about 3/4 inch inward untill the fins are flush with the caliper. This grinding took the longest, I used a die grinder with a sanding disc to removed the bulk of the material, then resurface discs progressively softer to polish the visable surface. Also rebalanced my wheels moving the outer weights as far outward as possible.

To come with the write up will be videos of the mounting ear and rotor grinding, and various install pictures.

[Mebot]

Post up videos from the track too if you can

[1stMerc]

Brackets came the other day. Now just gathering the other parts.

[Comin' in Hot]

The wheel weight issue is the same as the Baer kit. If you get your wheels rebalanced with the weights in the center of the hoop, they clear. Take a close look at our wheels there is slow point in the center.

[Logizyme]

But it is less effective to dynamic balance them with the wheel weights so close to each other and will require more weights to be added in that location.

This issue was never mentioned in this thread.

[Comin' in Hot]

But it is less effective to dynamic balance them with the wheel weights so close to each other and will require more weights to be added in that location.

This issue was never mentioned in this thread.

I was just thinking about this, there's also low-profile wheel weights that are thinner than standard stick-on the wheel weights.

I don't think it was mentioned because it's hit or miss....:lol:

[lji372]

I was just thinking about this, there's also low-profile wheel weights that are thinner than standard stick-on the wheel weights.

I don't think it was mentioned because it's hit or miss....:lol:

Discount tire stores near me stock the low profile wheel weights, not sure if they all do :dunno:

[lifespeed]

Not to state the obvious, but the ability to locate balance weights as required across the width of the wheel to accomplish a good balance is pretty important.

If the calipers don't clear wheel weights that is a problem.

[lji372]

Not to state the obvious, but the ability to locate balance weights as required across the width of the wheel to accomplish a good balance is pretty important.

If the calipers don't clear wheel weights that is a problem.

Calipers do clear the low profile weights.........:beer:

[lifespeed]

Calipers do clear the low profile weights.........:beer:


Currently working on a complete write-up, but I'll wait until I return from the track tomorrow to finish it up. But to answer some key questions here and for anyone going forward for the install this weekend, here is some of my findings:Finally a big issue for me was caliper clearance aginst the wheels weights. My outer tape weights hit the fins at the end of the caliper. Two part repair, first grind down the 8 fins on each caliper from the outer edge of the caliper to about 3/4 inch inward untill the fins are flush with the caliper. This grinding took the longest, I used a die grinder with a sanding disc to removed the bulk of the material, then resurface discs progressively softer to polish the visable surface. Also rebalanced my wheels moving the outer weights as far outward as possible.


I hope you are right, I wish the best to all involved in this potential solution to Marauder braking issues. I only commented because Logizyme mentioned an issue with clearance.

[Zack]

They clear low profile weights, which is what about every tire place carries now

[8UWITH6]

Not sure what low profile weights are but the ones we use at work are not more than 2mm thick probably less. Worst case you static balance (inside edge only) the fronts. On a roadforce balancer you can achieve a decent static balance. Most of my cars that have had custom wheels have been balanced that way with minimal issues.

[lji372]

Not sure what low profile weights are but the ones we use at work are not more than 2mm thick probably less. Worst case you static balance (inside edge only) the fronts. On a roadforce balancer you can achieve a decent static balance. Most of my cars that have had custom wheels have been balanced that way with minimal issues.

Those would be the low profile weights sir.

The full size ones are a full 3mm. So next time she says size matters, she's right :lol:

[Logizyme]

Even low profiles are likely to be problematic based on my fitment, and while not as big of an issue as relocating the weights inboard, lower profile weights mean they are further spread out, also reducing the accuracy of the balance, but this is minimal and is only worth mentioning.

You've already got all your tools out for grinding, what's a few more minutes to grind down the calipers?

[Zack]

FYI every single Baer brake kit owner shares the same problem with the wheel weights.
It's a non-issue

[lji372]

FYI every single Baer brake kit owner shares the same problem with the wheel weights.
It's a non-issue

i can vouch my baer brakes have the caliper ground.

in other words stfu and deal with it (in my nice voice) :D

[HeavyMetalMerc]

have been waiting patiently for Logizyme to post photos and report form weekend track day.......

[JBeezy]

have been waiting patiently for Logizyme to post photos and report form weekend track day.......
That makes 2 of us. Ordered my rotors last night. Then calipers and pads...

[Logizyme]

This write up is a general walk through on how to remove the existing front brakes, including caliper and bracket, rotor, pads and brake hose, and install the Zack adapter brackets, C5 calipers and pads, GT500 rotor, and TCE Zack SS hoses, along with the modifications required for fitment. Sorry for the lack of pictures at the end, I was busy working quickly so I did not loose all of my brake fluid.

Open the hood.
Remove the master cylinder brake fluid reservoir cap.
Check and top off the brake fluid level.
*Note* brake fluid is very damaging to paint, if any is spilled on painted surfaces quickly clean with soapy water.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_112807_zpsdd9a7f02.jp g
Lift the vehicle, or jack up and safely support the front of the vehicle.
Remove both front tire and wheel assemblies.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_113320_zps47fad99b.jp g
Using hose pinch off pliers, pinch off both front brake hoses.
Remove the brake hose to caliper banjo bolt.
Repeat on the other side.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/e7952a0f-d53e-4822-80db-9c77c7096c57_zpse8cd3374.jpg
Remove both 18mm Caliper bracket to steering knuckle bolts.
Remove the caliper and caliper bracket assembly with pads.
Repeat on the other side.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/f22f51c0-2102-4f0b-a84c-d651daa135f2_zps061dca13.jpg
Remove the rotor.
Repeat on the other side.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_124233_zps7e627b54.jp g
Lightly grind down the edge of the ears of the mounting holes on the steering knuckle. This will allow clearance of the Zack adapter brackets. Test fit the bracket as you grind so you only remove the minimum amount of material. Once the bolts can be threaded into the bracket this step is complete. I used a die grinder and a coarse resurface disc.
Repeat on the other side.
*Note* Eye protection and a respirator are recommended safety equipment during this procedure.
How to video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GE1yYSR-z0&feature=youtu.be)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_124257_zps883609ad.jp g
Install one washer on each of the 8 bolts included with the Zack brackets.
Liberally apply medium strength(blue) Loctite on each of the bolts.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_131048_zps9129e504.jp g
Install two of the short bolts through the front of the steering knuckle, into the threaded holes of the Zack bracket.
Tighten.
Repeat on the other side.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_131856_zpsb023b48b.jp g
Grind the center bore of the new GT500 rotor and test fit onto the hub. Repeat grinding until the rotor slides fully onto the hub. I used a die grinder and a carbine grinding bit.
Repeat on the other side.
*Note* Eye protection and a respirator are recommended safety equipment during this procedure.
How to video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iL0Ua7RfDE)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_130356_zpsd9860f95.jp g
Remove the C5 caliper brackets from the calipers.
Slide the caliper bracket over the rotor.
Install two of the long bolts supplied with the Zack brackets through the back of the adapter bracket and into the caliper bracket.
Tighten the bolts.
Install the caliper hardware clips.
Install the brake pads.
Repeat on the other side.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_133008_zps66dbb657.jp g
Install the caliper over the caliper bracket and pads.
Install the caliper slide pin bolts.
*Note* during the following procedures check and top off the brake fluid level frequently ensuring the brake fluid reservoir stays above the minimum line.
Loosely install the TCE brake line onto the caliper using the supplied banjo bolt and copper washers.
Using a 13mm flare nut wrench, remove the old brake hose from the hard line at the frame.
Remove the 13mm bolt holding the hose bracket to the frame.
Install the TCE supplied hose bracket to the frame using the original bolt.
Install the TCE brake hose through the bracket.
Holding the brake hose hex with a 17mm wrench, tighten the 13mm flare nut to the brake hose.
Rotate the brake hose on the caliper for best clearance and tighten the banjo bolt.
Loosen the caliper bleeder screw.
Bleed the brake fluid.
Repeat on the other side.
Clearance the wheel weights.
Install the front tire and wheel assemblies.
Test drive.
Break in the new brakes.

[Logizyme]

At the track being put to the test:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140921_064019_zps7281be9c.jp g
Was a great track day at a new coarse for me; Oregon Raceway Park. A very technical track, slower speeds, plenty of corners, verticality and camber. The car performed great. The tires were getting just the right amount of sticky, and the suspension was dialed in and kicking butt. Engine and trans did not skip a beat all day. I took many cars by surprise when I snuck up on them, including two 05-09 Mustang GT's, a 00-04 Mustang Saleen, and a newer BMW 3 series, and a handful of Mini's. I also managed to come into a turn a bit hot and brake a bit late taking my car off the track and into the dirt, I recognized that it was going to happen and handled the situation exactly as I should have so I have no shame for getting a little dusty. The only car to pass me all day was a Mini Cooper S with slicks, I imagine he had some other mods I couldn't see going on, but he was quick around this twisty coarse. Great day.

[Logizyme]

Preliminary review:

Overall I am somewhat dissatisfied with this setup.

After a brutal day at the track I can say that this setup has produced a moderate improvement in performance. I was not able to stop on a dime, but the setup did prolong the onset and reduce the severity of brake fade, but not by large milestones.

Fitment is somewhat sub par, enough to cause minor issues. The caliper fitment is slightly too far out causing the pads to extend off the end of the rotor, which I suspect is the cause of some brake noise I have experienced. The C5 caliper is designed for a 12.8 inch rotor, and this makes getting perfect fitment over the 14 inch rotor difficult and with little room for error so I am not surprised by this fitment issue. In order to get the caliper further onto the rotor the knuckle mounting ears would need to be grinding in a different way to allow the caliper bracket further towards the knuckle. I had trouble installing the TCE brackets into the alignment holes on the frame, and ended up flattening the alignment tab on the bracket and installing without using the alignment. The caliper extending too far out has clearance issues with the outboard wheel weights and needs to be corrected, perhaps had the caliper bracket been located further onto the rotor this would give greater clearance to the wheel weights possibly allowing low profile weights to be used in the correct location without modification of the caliper. The pad width designed for the GT500 rotors is 2.5" and the C5 pad width is 2.0" meaning there is more than a 0.5" area on the inside of the rotor that is not touched by the pads and will rust, which will be especially noticeable for those of you who acquired drilled/slotted rotors, when the drilled and slotted area is all rusty and unused.

The main performance increase comes from the mass of the rotor. Brake pad size is nearly equal to stock. Unsprung weight has increased several lbs even with the weight saving aluminum caliper. Rotational weight has increased greatly. Swept rotor area has only increased marginally. OE pads are 2.25" wide, 12" outside diameter rotor, 9.75" inside swept diameter calculates to 38.6 sq in of swept area on the stock front brakes. C5 pads are 2.0" wide, 14" outside diameter GT500 rotor, 12" inside swept diameter calculates to 40.9 sq in swept area on the Zack setup, a marginal 5% increase.

I would say it is a decent visual upgrade, a moderate fade/overheat upgrade, and a slight stopping power upgrade.

[Zack]

Not much I can say here, since this brake setup wasn't designed for track events like you are attending.

What's wrong with the pad placement in relation to the rotor?
Can you post a pic?

[Zack]

I installed this on my blue and it's leaps and bounds over stock.

It's not even comparable to be honest

[HeavyMetalMerc]

nice work, and excellent review.
any modifications to increase for more said performance? Pads etc?
how was the pedal feel?

[lifespeed]

I installed this on my blue and it's leaps and bounds over stock.

It's not even comparable to be honest

New stock brakes are leaps and bounds over worn stock brakes. New Monroe's are leaps and bounds over worn Tokico's. New Firestone's are leaps and bounds over worn BF Goodrich.

[Zack]

New stock brakes are leaps and bounds over worn stock brakes. New Monroe's are leaps and bounds over worn Tokico's. New Firestone's are leaps and bounds over worn BF Goodrich.

May I remind you that I probably have forgotten more about cars than you ever knew? What a douche comment.

[Logizyme]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/Tylerswallpapers/20140919_133008_zps66dbb657.jp g
The brake pad extends past the end of the rotor. This will cause a tapered wear at the end of the brake pad, and the pad will contact the outer circumference of the rotor which will undoubtedly cause noise. Any closer to the rotor and the brake bracket becomes closer to the rotor. As I mentioned getting the 12.8" design caliper over the 14" rotor leaves little room for error. A tenth outward ends up with this result and a tenth inward would result in the caliper bracket/hardware hitting the end of the rotor.

I also noted that caliper offset was not perfect, IIRC it was slightly too positive. No where near enough to create problems, it was just not perfect.

I should also note that I am using the same formula pads as I did previously. The pad formula has allot to do with stopping power, feel, and grab.

If you changed formula, or even brand when doing your swap that could result in large difference you've noticed, or perhaps you may have gotten used to the soft pedal you had until you got your brakes fully bled, somewhat of a placebo effect, its happened to all of us. Finally you've said you barely drive it, how many miles have you put on the setup? Enough to fully break them in? I've put over 700 miles on this setup so far.

My review is still preliminary. After my trip and track day I need to get the vehicle back in the air and check the entire system, including a pad inspection. 700 miles and one track day is still not enough to say for sure exactly how well this setup performs.

[Logizyme]

Because the pads are contoured for a smaller rotor, only the middle of the pad extends past the rotor.

I tracked the OE brakes, and maybe I'm wrong but this setup should be considered and upgrade right?

I would consider trying a different set of pads to increase performance.

Pedal feel was normal, high and hard as expected with performance pads.

[Zack]

I appreciate the feedback. On my car the pad is 1/16" below the top of the rotor and the caliper centering is dead nuts accurate
It's very possible different parts will yield different results

[Zack]

You could ask any Baer brake owner that question. I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't think this is an upgrade. It's the same stuff

[Logizyme]

Right.

Like I mentioned getting that caliper situated perfectly leaves little room for error. Manufacturing variances can account for the pads being off the edge like they are for me. But that does not make it any less of a problem.

I will be interested to hear what other peoples experience when they have this setup installed.

[lifespeed]

May I remind you that I probably have forgotten more about cars than you ever knew? What a douche comment.

How arrogant, you know nothing about the cars, boats and engines I have built.

[Mebot]

Logizyme, great install write up and review. Can you repost as a standalone thread so it won't get lost in this one? It would be helpful for future searches, maybe even become a sticky.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Logizyme, great install write up and review. Can you repost as a standalone thread so it won't get lost in this one? It would be helpful for future searches, maybe even become a sticky.

Agreed. Great review.

[Green96]

I have to disagree with the earlier statement that the main performance increase comes from rotor mass and that the swept area increase only yields a 5% improvement.

The main improvement comes from the increased diameter. If we assume everything else is equal (I know this assumption is untrue, but for this conversation it us close enough). The increase in effective contact diameter from a 12" rotor to a 14" rotor yields approx 18% improvement in stopping torque. That is substantial especially for the investment.

[Green96]

To add to my comment, the comment about rotor mass is probably valid if you are just talking about fade resistance. I think most of us are after improved stopping power with less pedal effort. That is where I think we should be seeing something like an 18% improvement.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

To add to my comment, the comment about rotor mass is probably valid if you are just talking about fade resistance. I think most of us are after improved stopping power with less pedal effort. That is where I think we should be seeing something like an 18% improvement.

Agreed as the larger the rotor, the more surface area to disperse heat.

I'd like to know the pedal firmness improvement over a stainless line upgrade and otherwise stock system though.

[Logizyme]

I have to disagree with the earlier statement that the main performance increase comes from rotor mass and that the swept area increase only yields a 5% improvement.

The main improvement comes from the increased diameter. If we assume everything else is equal (I know this assumption is untrue, but for this conversation it us close enough). The increase in effective contact diameter from a 12" rotor to a 14" rotor yields approx 18% improvement in stopping torque. That is substantial especially for the investment.

I do respect your opinion, but I disagree with you in theory. I believe torque has little to do with brake system performance. We are dealing with a system that is converting kentic energy into heat energy via friction. In comparing a larger system like this one I will assume some constants; brake fluid pressure being identical(in our case we may see a slight improvement via the hoses), brake pad size identical(in our case very similar) together fluid pressure and pad size determine the PSI applied to the rotors. The total energy lost to friction will be a result of pressure applied and area of the two surfaces that move aginst each other. In our case the swept area of the rotor has increased 5% and the PSI has remained nearly identical.

Had the C5 pads been wider there would be a much greater swept area change, as the stock pads are 2.25 wide and the C5 are 2.0. If a 2.25 wide pad could be used the swept area increases to closer to 45 sq in, had a full 2.5 wide pad been used like the GT500 brembo's swept area is nearly 50 sq in, which is a 20%+ increase. However our options are somewhat limited and a wider pad is difficult to make work with our knuckles and behind the stock wheel.

I do not believe that because the caliper is situated further out that it will give the brakes better "grabbing torque". My opinion. I could be wrong.

Besides the increase in rotor mass(which holds the heat produced from friction) the larger rotor also has better heat disapation and cooling ability.

I am considering adding a brake cooling duct that channels air from the front grille(or maybe fog light openings) through a flexable duct that will connect to a modified backing plate to throw cool air into the backside inner part of the rotor, venting outward which will aid in cooling the rotor and cool the wheel bearing.

[Logizyme]

Logizyme, great install write up and review. Can you repost as a standalone thread so it won't get lost in this one? It would be helpful for future searches, maybe even become a sticky.

Allow me some time to aquire some more pictures of the hose setup and the caliper modification for the wheel weights before I make a final thread writeup.

[chief455]

Allow me some time to aquire some more pictures of the hose setup and the caliper modification for the wheel weights before I make a final thread writeup.
And please give street driving impressions, excellent write up and assessment. thanks for sharing!

[Green96]

I do not believe that because the caliper is situated further out that it will give the brakes better "grabbing torque". My opinion. I could be wrong.


Assume that everything except the diameter is identical. Also assume that the brake produces 100 lbs of friction force. It the effective diameter of the OEM rotor is 11" my free body diagram says that it is producing 550 in-lbs of braking torque (Force * Diameter/2). If the new setup has an effective diameter of 13" and the same friction force the new braking torque is 650 in-lbs with the same braking effort.

Heat soaking is certainly a factor....because the friction force begins to drop. Torque gets you going, and torque gets you stopped. Larger diameter brakes are the biggest improvement that you can make.

[massacre]

This is interesting stuff, great review by Logizyme

[Logizyme]

Again friction has nothing to do with torque.

If I took a bare tire that weights 10lbs and set it on the ground and dragged it 1 foot on the ground its going to produce friction, this friction is a result of the kinetic energy that I am putting into dragging the tire and turning into heat energy.

If I take the same tire and drag it 2 feet, the amount of friction will double. I have now put in two times as much kinetic energy to drag the tire, and it has produced two times as much heat via friction. This is the equivalent of increasing the swept area of the rotor. Each revolution of the wheel the swept area is how far the two materials travel against each other.

If I then put the tire on a 4000lb car, with four wheels, and now there is 1000lbs of weight on the tire, now I try to drag just the one tire a foot across the floor. Well I will not be able to do it, but if I could it would take 100 times as much kinetic energy from me and it would produce 100 times as much heat from friction. This is the equivalent of increasing brake pressure on the pads into the rotor.

Keep in mind, in this analogy there are no rotating parts, the tire is not rotating, its being dragged, the floor is not rotating. There is absolutely no torque involved, yet the kinetic energy and friction are taking place and producing heat.

I could come up with a dozen analogies that have nothing to do with torque.
Holding a brick still on a conveyor belt.
Rubbing my hands together for heat.

There is no place for torque in friction.

[Green96]

Force from friction = normal force (contact force) x coef if friction. In a system that is rotating that force acts tangentiality at the effective radius which gives us torque = force x radius. The heat is the by product. If we take this further, heat does become a long term factor becuase of changes to the system. Coef of friction can change due to heat. The normal force can change as the brake fluid heats up and probably others.

You can certainly use and energy balance equation to determine how long it will take to heat soak the brakes. Your factors will be energy in (heat from friction) convective cooling, conductive cooling, and radiated. Things that you mentioned like mass of the brake system will come into play. In the end what. It tells us is how long it will take to reach a certain temp (term where the friction force starts to drop). I have been assuming a steady state non heat soaked system.

What is your degree in? Mine is mechanical engineering.

[Krytin]

From StopTech: http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-system-and-upgrade-selection

Highlights from the above link which should be read in it's entirety.

The brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the car into thermal energy during deceleration - producing heat, lots of heat - which must then be transferred into the surroundings and into the air stream.

Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.

Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized.
For maximum brake potential, vehicles benefit from proper corner weight balance, a lower CG, a longer wheelbase, more rear weight bias and increased aerodynamic down force at the rear.

Clamping force: The clamping force of a caliper is the force exerted on the disc by the caliper pistons. Measured in pounds clamping force, it is the product of brake line pressure, in psi, multiplied by the total piston area of the caliper in square inches. This is true whether the caliper is of fixed or floating design. Increasing the pad area will not increase the clamping force.

Braking torque: When we are talking about results in the braking department we are actually talking about braking torque - not line pressure, not clamping force and certainly not fluid displacement or fluid displacement ratio. Braking torque in pounds-feet on a single wheel is the effective disc radius in inches times clamping force times the coefficient of friction of the pad against the disc all divided by 12. The maximum braking torque on a single front wheel normally exceeds the entire torque output of a typical engine.

A few things are now obvious:


1) Line pressure can only be increased by either increasing the mechanical pedal ratio or by decreasing the master cylinder diameter. In either case the pedal travel will be increased.
2) Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.
3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque.

[lifespeed]

Regarding the discussion of the relative importance of swept area, pad area and rotor diameter, this is what I have observed on my 14" rotor Wilwood setup. Rotor diameter does matter, the lever arm from the caliper to the wheel allows it to impart more rotational torque, hence better braking. However, the larger rotor also puts more heat energy into the pad for each wheel revolution. Swept area of the rotor is increased, vs pad area which is constant. And in our examples, the pad area is pretty small. IMHO, this small pad area is a huge problem. More heat is put into the pad. Heat can result in uneven pad transfer (sometimes mis-identified as "warped rotors") and high pad wear rate. Not to mention a small pad will wear faster by definition.

From what I have seen, there is not currently a caliper that has been adapted to the front rotors of our car that holds a larger pad, especially if one tries to stay within the limitations of the stock wheel. Although I am not using the setup referenced in this thread, I am running a 14" rotor and 6-piston FNSL6R Wilwood caliper with pad area similar to stock. Although braking performance is excellent, especially once I switched to Carbotech XP8 pads, the wear rate is extremely high. Unacceptable, really, can't get to 10K miles on a set of pads in the front.

So I agree that what this car really needs is a larger caliper/pad to go with the 14" rotor. This will require either an aftermarket wheel or a relatively thick wheel spacer for the stock wheel. If one wants to keep the stock wheel with a spacer and maintain the OEM scrub radius, it is then required to widen the front wheel 2X the width of the spacer.

Nothing is easy, but it isn't too easy messing with the front brakes once or twice a year as I have been doing for the past three years.

[lifespeed]

Incidentally, a quick "fix" for brake stopping power is the Carbotech XP8 pads. They are high temperature tolerant, and have fantastic coefficient of friction and modulation. However, this does not correct the underlying small pad problem. Wear rate will be high, and dusting is severe (although non-corrosive). But you will stop.

[lifespeed]

3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque.

Good reminder of the fundamentals. I don't think there is too much of a brake torque issue with the Wilwood setup. With the largely-untested C5 'vette caliper setup, I think testing with a real set of brake pads would be helpful. Pads are hugely important, don't know what Logizyme ran. Should have been mentioned in the review given it's importance.

Yeah, more pad area is really what is needed. Clamping force is good enough for Wilwood, may be good enough for C5 caliper but I don't have personal experience there.

But the pad area is completely inadequate.

[JBeezy]

My plan is to go with a ceramic pad of some type. I don't want all the brake dust

[lifespeed]

My plan is to go with a ceramic pad of some type. I don't want all the brake dust

Nobody wants dust. But nothing is worse than pulsing rotors, they drive you nuts and kill stopping power. Dust doesn't do that.

Let us know how it works out for you.

[Todd TCE]

Not looking to argue but a few fundamentals here. Some having been covered yes.

Pad size is relative to the requirement of caliper body mainly. Larger bodies house larger pads. Larger pads would be found in calipers such as the Aero6 if we were able to use one. Not only larger but 20% more cubic inches as well. The 7416 is only 16mm thick but due to the required low clearance for the wheels.

Pad size does not have a direct impact on brake torque- clamp force. Force is based upon the piston area not pads size. Same force, larger or smaller surface doing that work, thus longer or shorter pad life.

Pad size DOES have an impact on the effective radius tho. This is the common center point of the pistons in a caliper from top to bottom. Or express usually by "half the height (radially) of the pad". Meaning a single piston with an area of 4" has a square pad to fit the large pistons. A six pot has 4" but over smaller pistons top to bottom- making the same pressure at a higher Er. Net result is more torque for the given pressure.

The heat generated by a 12, 13 or 14" disc is the same. Heat is derived from mass and speed not rotor size. The rotor manages that heat it does not generate it. The larger the disc, the more effective and lower the average temperature as the same BTU is being managed by the larger iron base.


Don't know if that helps, confuses or what but figured I throw it out there...

[JBeezy]

Nobody wants dust. But nothing is worse than pulsing rotors, they drive you nuts and kill stopping power. Dust doesn't do that.

Let us know how it works out for you.
Ceramic pads cause pulsating? I'm asking because I don't know. I just can't stand brake dust after every drive.

[lifespeed]

Ceramic pads cause pulsating? I'm asking because I don't know. I just can't stand brake dust after every drive.

I have had problems with pad transfer using lower temperature brake pads: Wilwood BP10 at 800F and to a lesser extent Porterfield R4S at 900F.

I now run Carbotech XP8 at 1250F and so far don't seem to have pad transfer issues. These are a ceramic compound, but are nothing like Hawk HPS.

When I ran stock brakes I had pulsing problems with Hawk HPS pads, which are ceramic and don't list a temperature range AFAIK.

"Ceramic" is a generic term and doesn't really describe a pad compound very well. I would caution against using a pad with a temp range below 1000F, based solely on my experiences. Which unfortunately have included quite a few different sets of pads and rotors.

[Logizyme]

What is your degree in? Mine is mechanical engineering.

I do not appreciate the personal attack. I run circles around my co-workers who hang their framed degrees on the wall. Most people come out of school dumber than when they went in. Personal intellegence will always be more effective than training. Nothing aginst you, I dont know you, but just because you tell me you have a degree does not make me believe you know what your talking about.

I did not want to bring co-eff into the mix here because that has more to do with pad formula and heat. Pad formula being a choice to the user and heat being covered under fade topics.

I understand that in gereral pad size does not increase brake friction but it can if the pad sweeps a larger area of the rotor.

Assuming all other factors the same: If I have a pad that is 2" wide and 6" long, 12sq inches. Using a 14inch rotor, sweeping the area between 12" inside diameter and 14" outside diameter resulting in 40.9sq in of rotor swept area.

12 x 40.9 = 490.8 friction area per rev

If I have a pad that is 3" wide and 4" long, also 12 sq inches which means the the pad will have the same PSI, but now it sweeps a 3inch wide section of the rotor, 11" inside diameter and 14" outside diameter, resulting in a swept area of 59.0sq in.

12 x 59.0 = 708.0 friction area per rev

Friction has increased 60%, resulting in 60% greater stopping power and 60% more heat, which also means reduced pad life and quicker onset of fade.

Increasing the pads sq in will reduce the PSI but overall braking force will remain greatly unchange because of greater friction area but reduced pressure, but it will increase life expectancy and heat/fade resistance.

Honestly I think this tech discussion has gotten a little out of hand, and I know I'm not helping that :D.

Braking ability has much more to do with the grip of the tire, and even the stock braking system should be able to activate ABS with stock tires on dry pavement. I could activate ABS with my stickier nittos and stock brakes. So really the only way to improve our braking ability is with fade resistance - which has been accomplished with this system.

[Logizyme]

Ceramic pads cause pulsating? I'm asking because I don't know. I just can't stand brake dust after every drive.

I've never heard of ceramics causing pulsating(which is a result of a warped rotor)

Ceramics IMO are generally a premium/luxury pad. A great choice for a daily driver. In general they are tough enough to handle most normal operation. They have low noise and low dust. They typically give a lower pedal feel, accounting for the luxury description. They are not very aggressive on the rotor. They can be somewhat weak when cold and may require a little more pedal effort until they get slightly warmed up - for this reason I do not use them on rear calipers that have built in parking brakes.

For high performance metallics are generally better, tougher on the rotor and more agresive in general. But will result in more noticable dust and more potential for noise.

[Green96]

I do not appreciate the personal attack.

I probably should not have posted it like that, sorry.


Friction has increased 60%, resulting in 60% greater stopping power and 60% more heat, which also means reduced pad life and quicker onset of fade.

Wrong. There is not difference in heat. Heat is a function of the energy put into the brake system. That energy is the kinetic energy that you talked about earlier, and it has not changed. The heat generated is the same. As you pointed out there is more mass in the system with the new setup which will help you absorb more stops worth of heat before the brakes start to fade.

I am done now. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further, but you are right...this has gone far enough.

[lifespeed]

I've never heard of ceramics causing pulsating(which is a result of a warped rotor)

No, this is a common misconception (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths). Pulsing rotors are almost always caused by transfer of pad material to the rotor in an uneven fashion, causing high spots. As I changed from low-temperature street pads to the higher temp pads I noticed a reduction in pulsing problems.


Ceramics IMO are generally a premium/luxury pad. A great choice for a daily driver. In general they are tough enough to handle most normal operation. They have low noise and low dust. They typically give a lower pedal feel, accounting for the luxury description. They are not very aggressive on the rotor. They can be somewhat weak when cold and may require a little more pedal effort until they get slightly warmed up - for this reason I do not use them on rear calipers that have built in parking brakes.

For high performance metallics are generally better, tougher on the rotor and more agresive in general. But will result in more noticable dust and more potential for noise.

This is pretty general. Hawk HPS are junk, although low dust. Carbotech XP8 perform great, but are dusty. Both are ceramic. You really need to compare specific compounds and temperature ranges.

If our brake pads weren't so small pad compound would likely be much less of an issue, and many pads would work acceptably. I believe that when the pads are worked as hard as they are on a Marauder these differences between compounds are magnified.

IMHO, just what I have observed as I have gone through brakes and rotors and fought pulsing problems on both stock and Wilwood brakes.

[1Marauder]

All I can say is... "Damn you guys are SMART!" Seriously! I am not being an a$$. You are way past my smarts in this area.

I am happy to upgrade to the 14inch put together by Zack and understand this upgrade. I have the adapters being sent... But which PADS are best?

It makes sense to change the back pads when reconfiguring the front, right?

Looking to STOP, low dust, and a reasonable life (10M miles is unacceptable!).

[Logizyme]

No, this is a common misconception (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths). Pulsing rotors are almost always caused by transfer of pad material to the rotor in an uneven fashion, causing high spots. As I changed from low-temperature street pads to the higher temp pads I noticed a reduction in pulsing problems.
Once again, I respect others opinion's. You are completely entitled to it. I also appreciate the reference, but I take everything with a grain of salt. I disagree - not saying your wrong, but I believe otherwise.

As a rotor goes through its heat cycles the metal expands and contracts. The more cycles it goes through the more the shape of the rotor distorts. Cast iron is very resistant to this, far more than most other suitable metals. Steels have a very difficult time with heat cycles, they would quickly loose their strength, warp, and crack. This is why engine blocks and rotors are made of cast Iron and not a stronger metal. Continued heat cycles will increase the molecular shifting of the metal, this is especially problematic when the rotor does not heat evenly, when the vehicle's wheel comes to the final turn of dead stop, that last portion of the rotor heats up far more than the other side, heat expansion on one part of the rotor and not another will speed up warping further.

I understand the theory that the thickness variation and runout is a result of pad material on the rotor, which would be seen on a severely warped rotor as a result of increased brake pressure on the high spot of a warped rotor causing extra friction and pad material deposits in that area. Its a result, not the cause.

I have done thousands of brake inspections and jobs. I've seen rotors with the most absurd hot spots. I've machined thousands of rotors. I've measured runout so many times I could do it blindfolded.

When I machine a rotor that has .015" lateral runout, and I do a test cut, machining just .002 into the rotor, whats under that .002? Metal. There is certainly not .015" of pad material on that rotor - that I can guarantee.

Ever park your car for a few days in the rain, come out and find the rotor surface has spots of rust on it? If there was that thick a layer of pad material on the rotor it wouldn't be able to rust.

Its also well known that cheaper rotors are more prone to warp. Generally this is a result of the rotor being cast with less material; the vented area of the rotor will be thicker, and the iron surface thickness will be thinner. This results in a rotor with less mass, which in order to produce the same level of stopping force will gather more heat faster, and because the vented area of the rotor is larger it also cools faster. Sounds good right? Not entirely, this means the rotor's heat cycles happen faster, they happen hotter, and the shape of the rotor distorts faster. This is also why a machined rotor will warp faster than a new rotor, because by machining the rotor you have removed material, with the end result being similar to the cheap rotor.



This is pretty general. Hawk HPS are junk, although low dust. Carbotech XP8 perform great, but are dusty. Both are ceramic. You really need to compare specific compounds and temperature ranges.

If our brake pads weren't so small pad compound would likely be much less of an issue, and many pads would work acceptably. I believe that when the pads are worked as hard as they are on a Marauder these differences between compounds are magnified.

IMHO, just what I have observed as I have gone through brakes and rotors and fought pulsing problems on both stock and Wilwood brakes.

Its not really within resources for someone to try every different formula of every different brand in a scientific manner. But I do understand and agree that one brands "ceramic" formula will be different from another brand's, however it is reasonable to group ceramic pad characteristics vrs semi-metallic, vrs organics. So being general is about all we can do.

[Logizyme]

It makes sense to change the back pads when reconfiguring the front, right?

Looking to STOP, low dust, and a reasonable life (10M miles is unacceptable!).

Absolutely it makes sense.

Any brake pad you choose will stop the vehicle, I promise. Lifespan will be similar enough between different brands and formulas that it need not be considered when replacing your pads - brake life has much more to do with how you use them.

I always use Centric Posi-Quiet ceramic's on my daily drivers. Always a quality pad, affordable, and very low dust and noise. They do produce a softer lower pedal that can take some getting used to, but if you throw your foot down that car will come slamming to a stop - no worries there. The lower pedal feel will give you excellent control of exactly how much brakes you apply at the lower level. These pads are a little more sensitive to getting beat on extendedly - I imagine I would fry them at the track pretty quick. I would highly suggest these pads.

[Todd TCE]

I did not want to bring co-eff into the mix here because that has more to do with pad formula and heat. Pad formula being a choice to the user and heat being covered under fade topics.

I understand that in gereral pad size does not increase brake friction but it can if the pad sweeps a larger area of the rotor.

Assuming all other factors the same: If I have a pad that is 2" wide and 6" long, 12sq inches. Using a 14inch rotor, sweeping the area between 12" inside diameter and 14" outside diameter resulting in 40.9sq in of rotor swept area.

12 x 40.9 = 490.8 friction area per rev

If I have a pad that is 3" wide and 4" long, also 12 sq inches which means the the pad will have the same PSI, but now it sweeps a 3inch wide section of the rotor, 11" inside diameter and 14" outside diameter, resulting in a swept area of 59.0sq in.

12 x 59.0 = 708.0 friction area per rev

Friction has increased 60%, resulting in 60% greater stopping power and 60% more heat, which also means reduced pad life and quicker onset of fade.

Increasing the pads sq in will reduce the PSI but overall braking force will remain greatly unchange because of greater friction area but reduced pressure, but it will increase life expectancy and heat/fade resistance.

Honestly I think this tech discussion has gotten a little out of hand, and I know I'm not helping that :D.

Braking ability has much more to do with the grip of the tire, and even the stock braking system should be able to activate ABS with stock tires on dry pavement. I could activate ABS with my stickier nittos and stock brakes. So really the only way to improve our braking ability is with fade resistance - which has been accomplished with this system.

I like the tech, agreeing or not. I'm good. Some further thoughts.

The only issue I take with this (agree that Cf should be evaluated as a constant and that tires play a huge roll) is that portion highlighted. Frictional force is not increased by 60% here. (forget the amount let's focus on if there is or not for simplicity) It's the same force over a longer (revolution) working surface. Great swept are IS a general indicator of greater efficiency I'll go there easily. You can swap a 12" rotor for a 14" and using the same caliper/pad get a huge change in torque- and efficiency by way of more swept area. Adding a larger pad won't multiply that tho.

The frictional area is increased perhaps but the forces upon the pad are the same total. And the forces upon the rotor are at a lower psi over the surface of the pad itself. Frictional force being defined by pressure (piston area) x the Cf of the material. The total surface area of the pad won't have a significant effect here. Spreading that same force over a greater surface

I've had this discussion over and over before and link to nearly every brake manufacture who covers such things- we're all on the same page. Often folks try to take net frictional work being done and back that into the equation of what it's producing. Kind of working the results into the formula. In this case frictional force is the result not a factor in what it does.



* I like to add this experiment: Stand on the bathroom scale. You weight 200lbs. You have a Cf of '0' at this point. Now lift one leg. Your're surface area has halved. You weigh 200lbs and you still have a Cf of zero. Now do that leaning over until you slip and fall off. Try it both ways- two legs then one. It takes the same effort to move that scale and fall on your butt. You get the idea. Now call a medic.

[jwibbity]

I like the tech, agreeing or not. I'm good. Some further thoughts.

The only issue I take with this (agree that Cf should be evaluated as a constant and that tires play a huge roll) is that portion highlighted. Frictional force is not increased by 60% here. (forget the amount let's focus on if there is or not for simplicity) It's the same force over a longer (revolution) working surface. Great swept are IS a general indicator of greater efficiency I'll go there easily. You can swap a 12" rotor for a 14" and using the same caliper/pad get a huge change in torque- and efficiency by way of more swept area. Adding a larger pad won't multiply that tho.

The frictional area is increased perhaps but the forces upon the pad are the same total. And the forces upon the rotor are at a lower psi over the surface of the pad itself. Frictional force being defined by pressure (piston area) x the Cf of the material. The total surface area of the pad won't have a significant effect here. Spreading that same force over a greater surface

I've had this discussion over and over before and link to nearly every brake manufacture who covers such things- we're all on the same page. Often folks try to take net frictional work being done and back that into the equation of what it's producing. Kind of working the results into the formula. In this case frictional force is the result not a factor in what it does.



* I like to add this experiment: Stand on the bathroom scale. You weight 200lbs. You have a Cf of '0' at this point. Now lift one leg. Your're surface area has halved. You weigh 200lbs and you still have a Cf of zero. Now do that leaning over until you slip and fall off. Try it both ways- two legs then one. It takes the same effort to move that scale and fall on your butt. You get the idea. Now call a medic.

I'm going to go with the guy who makes and sells brakes :beer:

[MOTOWN]

I'm going to go with the guy who makes and sells brakes :beer:
Exactly! he speaks from experience , not :bs:theories!

[HeavyMetalMerc]

even though this discussion is all very informative, and above my head, there still seems to be good results. some tinkering may stil be needed. But isnt that what hot rodding is all about? trial and error? beside it looks good.

[Todd TCE]

Guys...relax. I'm not asking anyone to take sides here. I've made mistakes and learned and still do. Read, enjoy, think and draw conclusions.

The root of this discussion (and it's a good one) is that what we are after is Brake Power (hate that term). It's actually brake torque. Or more specifically Rotor Torque.

In calculating rotor torque there is no use of or reference to pad square inches or swept area. Both of those are either a byproduct or not part of the formula. My point was that greater swept area (while good) does not act as a torque multiplier. If it were that simple you can be certain someone would wildly market "Oversized Power Pads" or such things that would be just a larger pad for the same caliper. *Yeah, you know someone would huh?!

[JBeezy]

even though this discussion is all very informative, and above my head, there still seems to be good results. some tinkering may stil be needed. But isnt that what hot rodding is all about? trial and error? beside it looks good.
I'll drink to that...

[loud2004marquis]

even though this discussion is all very informative, and above my head, there still seems to be good results. some tinkering may stil be needed. But isnt that what hot rodding is all about? trial and error? beside it looks good.

BIIIIIG Brake plus one to that!

[Mebot]

even though this discussion is all very informative, and above my head, there still seems to be good results. some tinkering may stil be needed. But isnt that what hot rodding is all about? trial and error? beside it looks good.
What the hell I'll quote for truth too and make this a third post in a row

[lifespeed]

The root of this discussion (and it's a good one) is that what we are after is Brake Power (hate that term). It's actually brake torque. Or more specifically Rotor Torque.

In calculating rotor torque there is no use of or reference to pad square inches or swept area. Both of those are either a byproduct or not part of the formula. My point was that greater swept area (while good) does not act as a torque multiplier. If it were that simple you can be certain someone would wildly market "Oversized Power Pads" or such things that would be just a larger pad for the same caliper. *Yeah, you know someone would huh?!

I think most of us understand the laws of physics, myself including. No, brake pad area does not increase brake torque, to the first order. These same laws of physics specify that a larger tire does not provide more traction. Again, to a first order approximation. F=u*N. No area in this formula.

But let's not forget we're operating in the real world here with real friction materials that have temperature limits, wear rates, and detrimental behaviors like transferring hot pad material to the rotor, which causes pulsing and greatly reduces brake torque.

A good braking system will not only generate lots of brake torque, but will do so consistently over time, not get the pads hot enough to transfer material to the rotors under most operating conditions, and last at least 20K miles. This requires that the energy per square inch of pad area is not so high is to push it out of temperature range and cause accelerated wear. But this is the problem I have seen over and over again with the FNSL6R calipers on 14" rotors. I have NEVER claimed brake torque was in issue, at least as long as the rotors are still smooth. My car stops extremely well. For a few thousand miles. Then wear issues rear their ugly head.

We need larger pads and calipers so the large amount of energy (heat) absorbed by stopping a 4200 lb car is not concentrated in such a small area. I've been though this a lot, and have plenty of worn out pads and rotors to show for it.

[lifespeed]

The root of this discussion (and it's a good one) is that what we are after is Brake Power (hate that term). It's actually brake torque. Or more specifically Rotor Torque.

Personally, I am after brake torque that holds up and remains consistent for a reasonable service interval. There is no doubt that good brake torque can be accomplished with parts and kits already on the market. Whether they can keep it up for more than 10K miles is another subject entirely.

[Todd TCE]

That's a very good point: the larger pad does offer some of that.

By mounting the caliper and pad up higher on the disc (the Er) the pad will not only produce more torque but also run hotter. That energy is concentrated in a smaller area where as a larger oe pad will spread that over a greater surface area. In fact that's one of the benefits to many oe pads and why they produce the larger shape. Conversely "race" calipers intentionally exploit these designs for their benefits also; torque to size ratio and rotor weights. Consider the rotor only need be as wide roughly as the pad is tall on the back side.

While we've had the conversation before I'll come back and say much of the pad deposit issues (not loss of torque as you mention) can be attributed to both the choice of compound and the driving habits. That elevated temp can rightly break down pad material sooner. The only ways around this are either ample cooling without pad pressure, larger pads and the necessary caliper design to house it, and the friction material stable at the necessary temps.

The cooling and release I've covered before and it's printed on all my install notes as a caution to anyone with an automatic tranny. Take it out of gear or creep hot pads. Harder to do without a console shifter for sure.

The larger pad and caliper will help. Think many oe set ups with such pads. The trade offs again become weight, caliper design, (sliders) and ability to fit various discs. Thus "adapter" brackets and cross fit ideas.

The pad choice relates to what one expects. Just like someone said before; no pad is ideal for all applications. Never will be. Surprised at the Hawk HPS comment; one of the most popular street performance pads ever produced actually. Trade offs are the issue here; wear, noise, dust lack of bite or too much. What works well at 800f is just not going to work in the morning without eating up rotors cold. But stable low temp pads are not so great at higher temps. Pads such as BP20 and Hawk HP+ try to balance that. Wilwood Poly E will be another but very metallic. For the 7416 pad there are a host of suppliers one can try as well: Hawk, Porterfield, Carbotech come to mind.

One of the down falls also of this car/kit is the lack of more rotor mass and cooling. We are saddled with a 1.10 wide disc, not a 1.25 with a wider air gap. That comes back to fit. The same pad (albeit 20mm thick not 16 to start) are used on both street and track Lightnings, and probably 8X as many Impala SS kits I've produced over the years. Both those for example do have the 1.25 disc so I'd throw it out that this is a plus.

[Logizyme]

The gt500 rotor is 32mm(1.26") thick.

----

If you must consider braking force in torque(which is a terrible way of measuring it) you must understand that any torque you measure, if it be rotor/wheel torque, or knuckle/caliper/pad torque is purely a bi-product, a result of friction.

The concept of automotive braking systems is to convert the kinetic energy of the moving mass of the vehicle into another form of energy. In most cases this other energy is heat. In hybrid and electric vehicles, regenerative braking is used before friction braking, turning kinetic energy into electric energy. Automotive systems convert kinetic energy into heat via friction. You can only slow your car down as much as you convert its kinetic energy into heat via friction.

Friction is the force resisting the pad from sliding against the rotor. Friction is the force resisting the rotor from sliding against the pad. Kinetic energy is the force of the rotor to move against the pad.

Fr = μN

Fr is friction, it is our stopping power.
N is normal force, this is how much brake pressure we apply to the pad.
μ is the coefficient of friction, which will be determined by your brake pad formula and their temperature.

If my car is off, and on flat ground and I press the brakes I am increasing friction. There is no kinetic force trying to move the vehicle. If I start the car and put it in drive while holding the brakes, the powertrain is now trying to move the vehicle with kinetic energy. The friction I am generating with the brakes is a greater force than the kinetic energy - therefore the vehicle does not move, the brakes do not move, no heat is generated, and the brake pad and rotor might as well be mechanically linked - this is called static friction.

If I slowly let off the brake pedal I am reducing N and therefore reducing friction. When the kinetic energy of the powertrain overcomes the force of friction the vehicle will begin to move. When the kinetic energy is greater than the friction energy the two surfaces will move against one and other - this is called kinetic friction. The amount of Fr and the distance the two surfaces move against each other will determine the amount of kinetic energy converted to heat energy.

Converting kinetic energy to heat energy is how we stop the car, the more we convert the more we stop.

If I am traveling at 30 mph(350 wheel RPM) and apply X amount of brake pressure I will produce Y amount of friction and stopping power per revolution of the wheel, and Z amount of friction and stopping power per minute.

If I am traveling at 60 mph(700 wheel RPM) and apply X amount of brake pressure I will produce Y amount of friction and stopping power per revolution of the wheel, and Z*2 amount of friction and stopping power per minute.

The stopping power per revolution of the wheel is unchanged, because Fr is unchanged and the distance per revolution of the wheel is unchanged.

The stopping power per minute has doubled because Fr is unchanged, and the distance per minute has doubled.

If we apply distance to the swept area of the rotor it is easy to understand why the same pad with the same pressure on a larger rotor provides greater stopping power.

But when we consider that pad width has decreased, and rotor diameter has increased, resulting in a similar swept area, the heat generated from friction is similar as well.

Any forces of torque(also kinetic force) applied to or from the caliper and/or rotor are a direct result of the kinetic force and friction force. Just because a caliper is situated further from the center point of the rotor does not mean torque has changed.

[Zack]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.

[lji372]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.

^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^

[Mike M]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.

Where is the "LIKE" button?

[JBeezy]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.
Zack I appreciate this mod, simply because I didn't ever see how I was going to bring myself to spending $1800 on a wildwood kit. So keep doing what you are doing. I'm moving forward with my install. Only lacking calipers and pads now. Thanks for what you do.

[Comin' in Hot]

Wow this thread turned into a **** show.... I have Baer brakes and will say they feel stronger, but in reality it's all about getting the brakes bled correctly. I've had three marauders and all of them had crappy pedal feel when I got them and after bleeding the brakes, they felt better and grabbed harder.

If nothing else, this kit makes the front brakes look so much better and if someone is really unhappy I might be persuaded to buy a set of brackets from them for my other marauder.

[lifespeed]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.

Don't be so thin skinned. All I read was a discussion about various issues and experiences on brakes for a car that is notorious for problems in this department.

I'm sure it will be enlightening to see more and longer-term results with the GT500 adaptation you devised.

[Krytin]

Wow this thread turned into a **** show.... I have Baer brakes and will say they feel stronger, but in reality it's all about getting the brakes bled correctly. I've had three marauders and all of them had crappy pedal feel when I got them and after bleeding the brakes, they felt better and grabbed harder.

If nothing else, this kit makes the front brakes look so much better and if someone is really unhappy I might be persuaded to buy a set of brackets from them for my other marauder.

Plus One ^^!
The kit looks exactly like the Baer kit only the rotors are dirt cheap.
The big plus for this mod is the larger diameter rotor and moving the caliper/pads out increasing the torque applied. Anybody dumb enough to want to sell their brackets can pm me - I'll pay the full price and shipping!

[Logizyme]

This is humorous....and why I will never make another mod for this car in the future.

It's a copy of a Baer brake kit, which has never received anything but positive reviews over the 10 years it's been available.

I'm sorry you don't like it, and I'm sorry there are potentially 19 others who are having their doubts about installing their brakes.

At the end of the day, they will only be out $155 bucks......which I won't lose any sleep over.

I understand that this is a clone of the Baer kit, and I would guess if I got the Baer kit I would be somewhat dissatisfied with it as well.

I was also dissatisfied with the QA1/Naake setup. I spent a good six months before I decided for sure that they had to go. If you look closely at my write-up pics you'll see I start the write-up with QA1's and end with Eibachs and KYB's. Plenty of users here love the QA1's and that is fine - I did not.

Am I going to remove your brake kit? Not likely, as I still consider it an upgrade - as indicated in my review. I suppose my expectations of the upgrade and fitment were higher which is why I gave the review I did.

You found that the upgrade to your brakes was a huge difference, which is great. Hopefully everyone else who installes the kit will have the same results as you.

It was not my intention to criticize your effort or your product. I appreciate the effort to further improve our cars and the community. I was simply giving an honest and unbias review of the product - a review that several members here asked for. Also not my intention to make people doubt if they should install their brackets, but if I inform them of my experience and they are able to make a more informed decision, either to install or not, then I think I am helping.

I did not see anyone offer to correct the issues I have brought to light. No one tried to improve the situation. Neither of you asked how you could improve the setup. Todd/TCE did not ask me about my line bracket fitment. No one here offered to make things better. All I got was that I was **** out of luck and to handle it myself:


Not much I can say here, since this brake setup wasn't designed for track events like you are attending.

in other words stfu and deal with it (in my nice voice) :D

[Comin' in Hot]

Plus One ^^!
The kit looks exactly like the Baer kit only the rotors are dirt cheap.

I got the last set of DBA rotors from KNS Brakes and I paid about $300 a rotor.

[Todd TCE]

Apologies to Zack if any of my comments were construed as criticism...that was never my intent at all. I was only off on a technical tangent regarding the design of brakes in general etc.

I can't speak, nor would, about the function, quality or intent of this kit. I have nothing to do with it outside of the hoses. But from all outward appearances I can't see anything wrong with it at all! Maybe not for everyone, but neither are my kits. It appears to be a cost effective alternative to factory brakes. Well done sir.

Again, sorry if anyone was reading into our technical discussions more than was intended.

[stevengerard]

doh - just missed post 442

[lji372]

doh - just missed post 442

Haha 454 is coming up :rolleyes:

[1Marauder]

Let's get this thread back on track... Lji372... I received my brackets today, and they are each &$/#~ing workS of ART!!!!

Zack, thank you for wringing this kit out-- and to both of you--GREAT job working together to make it happen.

Us un-brake-educated-took stats 101 instead of calculus3- non sweep area calculating peddle-stompers really appreciate all the hard work.

My first experience with the lack of Marauder brakes happened on I40 , on my way to CA of TENN where I bought my car. Three 18 wheelers in a row on right... Passing the first (rear truck in right) the first of the three blew an putter middle outer tire.

Huge pieces of rubber headed my way, and I headed theirs, at 85 plus... I Braked really hard to slow (and swerve right behind the truck I had just passed), and it felt like I was Fred Flintstone, dragging my bare feet on ground to slow the beast. I didn't stop or slow in time... (and I blew 20 yards past where I thought the place the car would slow to)... having to accept running over portions of the tire treads and only hoping to NOT have the tread slap up on a painted surface....

And it was then, that I wanted MORE BIG brakes.

THANK YOU BOTH for making it happen!!!!!

[Logizyme]

So after polling a dozen or so people, today I finally had someone explain to me in an understandable way why the swept area is not relevant, which led to my understanding of why effective radius will determine stopping power.

I am willing to admit when I am wrong and I was. Swept area will not change braking force as I thought and said before.

What led to my understanding of this is going back to the scenario of 2x6" pads and 3x4" pads. While the 3x4" pad is sweeping a greater area of the rotor, its only sweeping the rotor with material that is 4" long, while the 2x6" pad is sweeping less rotor area, the area that is swept is swept by pad material that is 6" long.

Understanding this led me to understand why effective radius, brake pressure, and co-efficiency are the only factors that control energy transfer via friction.

I apologize for my hard headedness on this particular factor - I do feel like an ass. I wish it was explained to me better here on the boards before I made an ass of myself.

I still believe torque is purely a bi-product of the friction occurring. But I will say that mathematically and physically, green96's estimate of 18% increase is stopping power is more accurate with my new understanding. More or less it is an increase of rotor speed at the caliper.

[1Marauder]

I apologize for all intended humor, premeditated or spontaneous, from here to eternity.

This thread has been "swept away"

[1Marauder]

PS... Today I found an all female band that fronts The Ramones... Called "the Hormones..." And evidently that play only once a month, yell and scream at the audience, smash their equipment, and then act all demure and apologetic in the bar later.... True story.

[lifespeed]

PS... Today I found an all female band that fronts The Ramones... Called "the Hormones..." And evidently that play only once a month, yell and scream at the audience, smash their equipment, and then act all demure and apologetic in the bar later.... True story.

You're killing me . . . :laugh::rofl:

[lifespeed]

So after polling a dozen or so people, today I finally had someone explain to me in an understandable way why the swept area is not relevant, which led to my understanding of why effective radius will determine stopping power.

So it's good that we all understand what determines brake torque. Increasing pad size doesn't affect it to a first order approximation. Again, same physics says bigger tires don't improve traction. Carried to it's logical conclusion a 1 square inch pad will work as well as a 12 square inch pad. Anybody think that is true?

Bigger pads are absolutely critical to maintaining reasonable wear characteristics (not just long life between replacements, but nastiness like pad transfer and pulsation) and keeping temperatures under control. It is not just the rotor size that manages temperature, although obviously rotors are important.

I refer you to expensive cars like Porsche Panamera, Toyota Supra, and various other high end cars. They have huge calipers and pads. There is a reason.

[Ari]

So are any more of these brackets being made?

[massacre]

So are any more of these brackets being made?

Wow, where have you been, stranger? :wave:

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

I'll take a set of brackets if we are doing another run. I need something to keep me entertained with on the car next spring.

[ginger]

I bet if you get 10 more he'll do another run

[Ari]

Hey bud! I dropped off the face of the planet for a bit haha.

[lji372]

no takers........stock order cancelled

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

no takers........stock order cancelled

Huh?

Just getting home from work. I'm down. 9 more to go.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Also, noob question.. Not sure which or what but any possibility an upgraded 6 piston caliper would work? Like a C6 Grand Sport caliper?

[SIZEMOREMK]

I would also take a set if there is another run.

[Zack]

Also, noob question.. Not sure which or what but any possibility an upgraded 6 piston caliper would work? Like a C6 Grand Sport caliper?

The mounting points are much lower than stock. It would be very difficult to pull off, unless you had a 15" rotor

[MOTOWN]

The mounting points are much lower than stock. It would be very difficult to pull off, unless you had a 15" rotor

Even with a 15" rotor it still wouldn't work , C6 grand sport calipers are radial mount , the PBR caliper is a regular mount caliper , they require two entirely different style mounting brackets.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

The mounting points are much lower than stock. It would be very difficult to pull off, unless you had a 15" rotor

Interesting. Doing some reasearch this morning, the C6 z06/GS caliper is a direct bolt on to c5/c6 base cars with a 14" oem or aftermarket rotor with at least 18" wheels. If the C5 guys are mounting these 6 piston calipers without the need for brackets, and you are using a base C5 caliper, shouldn't these 6 piston calipers mount right on to Gerry's brackets?

Here is a thread of one of the pioneers to the z06/gs calipers on a C5.

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-tech/1189347-c6-z06-brakes-on-a-c5-part-ii-installation-pics.html

Only reason I ask is because the base C5 2-piston caliper doesn't really do it for me, and the 6-piston Grand Sport calipers can be had on ebay right now for another $300.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Even with a 15" rotor it still wouldn't work , C6 grand sport calipers are radial mount , the PBR caliper is a regular mount caliper , they require two entirely different style mounting brackets.

You might be thinking of a C6 big brake upgrade, Wilwood or Stop Tech, I'm talking about OEM calipers.

These aren't radial mount.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/blkss1755/120-2052_IMG.jpg

[Zack]

Even with a 15" rotor it still wouldn't work , C6 grand sport calipers are radial mount , the PBR caliper is a regular mount caliper , they require two entirely different style mounting brackets.

They would work with a 15" rotor.
I have already done the research.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

They would work with a 15" rotor.
I have already done the research.

If this is the case, I might try it. Going aftermarket 20" wheels next season anyways.

Now If I could just get me a set of Gerryjuice brake brackets.

[Zack]

If this is the case, I might try it. Going aftermarket 20" wheels next season anyways.

Now If I could just get me a set of Gerryjuice brake brackets.

LOL you would need to make entirely different brackets. :shake:

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

LOL you would need to make entirely different brackets. :shake:

Ughhh fail.

[drac]

Does anyone have any pictures of the whole setup installed with the actual C5 calipers? Both with the wheel off and installed?

I got a set of Jerry's brackets for this swap from a member that sold his car and never installed the set. Just want to know what I'm getting myself into here....

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Does anyone have any pictures of the whole setup installed with the actual C5 calipers? Both with the wheel off and installed?

I got a set of Jerry's brackets for this swap from a member that sold his car and never installed the set. Just want to know what I'm getting myself into here....

Visit page 7 and page 26 of this thread for good pics.

There isn't much to it. You take a die grinder($45 if you don't have one) and trim a bit of the stock brake bolt location ears, and then .03" of the center hub hole on the GT500 rotor. Bolt everything on. Bleed. Done.

BTW, the first page shows the C5 caliper, although his says "BAER" on it, the NAPA calipers don't say anything.

I'll buy your brackets if you don't decide to do it. I am investigating whether or not better calipers would work. I'm not feeling the 2 piston base c5 calipers..

[Zack]

Visit page 7 and page 26 of this thread for good pics.

There isn't much to it. You take a die grinder($45 if you don't have one) and trim a bit of the stock brake bolt location ears, and then .03" of the center hub hole on the GT500 rotor. Bolt everything on. Bleed. Done.

BTW, the first page shows the C5 caliper, although his says "BAER" on it, the NAPA calipers don't say anything.

I'll buy your brackets if you don't decide to do it. I am investigating whether or not better calipers would work. I'm not feeling the 2 piston base c5 calipers..

You don't have any other options with those brackets.
Is it sinking in yet?

[Logizyme]

I'm kinda with you ChiTownMaraud3r

I did not realize it at first but with the better thermal capacity of the front I realized that I was overheating the rears on the track - More piston area up front would bias more and even out temps - but as cool as a better front caliper would be I think I'll just put on some less aggressive pads on the rear and handle it that way.

Just curious, if the mounting ears for a better caliper are located too far inward why not offset the mounting holes so that the replacement caliper sits slightly higher or lower on the knuckle so that the mouting holes for the caliper and the knuckle mounting bolts don't have clearance issues - other than being more complicated to get fitment right on.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

I'm kinda with you ChiTownMaraud3r

I did not realize it at first but with the better thermal capacity of the front I realized that I was overheating the rears on the track - More piston area up front would bias more and even out temps - but as cool as a better front caliper would be I think I'll just put on some less aggressive pads on the rear and handle it that way.

Just curious, if the mounting ears for a better caliper are located too far inward why not offset the mounting holes so that the replacement caliper sits slightly higher or lower on the knuckle so that the mouting holes for the caliper and the knuckle mounting bolts don't have clearance issues - other than being more complicated to get fitment right on.

The problem is, according to Zack, the z06 caliper would have the pads touching the edge of the 14" rotor we are using since those calipers have a taller mount. This means the bracket would need to have caliper holes closer to the stock arm/mounting ears. Basically there's no more room to move those mounting holes in more. The only solution would be to upgrade to a 15" rotor and have a bracket with the caliper mounting holes offset the difference out more. The question is how much offset out from the current brackets? This would of course bring stock wheel clearance into question as well.

And Zack, I was wondering about CTSV 4 piston calipers, did you check those out? They seem to stick out more towards the wheel spokes, would need a spacer for stock wheels at the least..but maybe works with aftermarket wheels :dunno:

[MOTOWN]

You might be thinking of a C6 big brake upgrade, Wilwood or Stop Tech, I'm talking about OEM calipers.

These aren't radial mount.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/blkss1755/120-2052_IMG.jpg

I stand corrected!:depress: these are sweet calipers , but a 15" caliper will never fit a oem Marauder wheel , the 14" rotors are a tight fit.

[Zack]

The problem is, according to Zack, the z06 caliper would have the pads touching the edge of the 14" rotor we are using since those calipers have a taller mount. This means the bracket would need to have caliper holes closer to the stock arm/mounting ears. Basically there's no more room to move those mounting holes in more. The only solution would be to upgrade to a 15" rotor and have a bracket with the caliper mounting holes offset the difference out more. The question is how much offset out from the current brackets? This would of course bring stock wheel clearance into question as well.

And Zack, I was wondering about CTSV 4 piston calipers, did you check those out? They seem to stick out more towards the wheel spokes, would need a spacer for stock wheels at the least..but maybe works with aftermarket wheels :dunno:

Do you have any idea what factors go into 'slapping on brakes'?????
-Rotor Offset
-Caliper mounting hole spacing
-Custom Brackets
-Brake Lines

None of this is easy. It requires HOURS of precise measuring, modding, welding etc.

I have CTS-V calipers for my 93 Lincoln and it is going to require me bench building a mounting point for the caliper by modifying the spindle and welding custom mounting points on. Not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn306/Marauder-Z/1993%20Hot%20Rod%20Lincoln/0C1165B1-B995-4435-807E-1FBF8BCBE151_zps3uxzsnn7.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Marauder-Z/media/1993%20Hot%20Rod%20Lincoln/0C1165B1-B995-4435-807E-1FBF8BCBE151_zps3uxzsnn7.jpg.h tml)

[Logizyme]

The problem is, according to Zack, the z06 caliper would have the pads touching the edge of the 14" rotor we are using since those calipers have a taller mount. This means the bracket would need to have caliper holes closer to the stock arm/mounting ears. Basically there's no more room to move those mounting holes in more. The only solution would be to upgrade to a 15" rotor and have a bracket with the caliper mounting holes offset the difference out more. The question is how much offset out from the current brackets? This would of course bring stock wheel clearance into question as well.

And Zack, I was wondering about CTSV 4 piston calipers, did you check those out? They seem to stick out more towards the wheel spokes, would need a spacer for stock wheels at the least..but maybe works with aftermarket wheels :dunno:

If you move the new caliper mount holes to the side of the mounting ears instead of directly outward you would have tons more room, but besides the point you'll never get a fixed caliper to fit behide the stock wheel with the gt500 rotors, the stock wheel is just not freindly in that way and most of us dont want to mess up looks/performance by using rediculous spacers.

[drac]

Visit page 7 and page 26 of this thread for good pics.

There isn't much to it. You take a die grinder($45 if you don't have one) and trim a bit of the stock brake bolt location ears, and then .03" of the center hub hole on the GT500 rotor. Bolt everything on. Bleed. Done.

BTW, the first page shows the C5 caliper, although his says "BAER" on it, the NAPA calipers don't say anything.

I'll buy your brackets if you don't decide to do it. I am investigating whether or not better calipers would work. I'm not feeling the 2 piston base c5 calipers..

Thanks for the info. Looks pretty strait forward.

As far as the lines, I just get the "Zack kit" from TCE? I have been trying to follow the posts in this thread as much as I can, but they have gotten quite scattered at times. :|

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Thanks for the info. Looks pretty strait forward.

As far as the lines, I just get the "Zack kit" from TCE? I have been trying to follow the posts in this thread as much as I can, but they have gotten quite scattered at times. :|

TCE's website shows "zach kits" as available. I'm sure if you call them, they can set you up.

[drac]

TCE's website shows "zach kits" as available. I'm sure if you call them, they can set you up.


Cool. But those are the right lines for this swap I presume?

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Cool. But those are the right lines for this swap I presume?

I believe Zack tested the lines and confirmed they are a perfect fit.

[drac]

I believe Zack tested the lines and confirmed they are a perfect fit.

Awesome, thanks!

Just sprung on some R1 Concepts GT500 rotors. This should be interesting.

[Zack]

Awesome, thanks!

Just sprung on some R1 Concepts GT500 rotors. This should be interesting.

You better measure the inner diameter of your wheels.
The marauder wheel has a larger ID than mustang wheels.
I'd bet money those wheels will not work

[Spdjunky]

interesting read

[drac]

You better measure the inner diameter of your wheels.
The marauder wheel has a larger ID than mustang wheels.
I'd bet money those wheels will not work


You dont think because the Mustang wheels I have are GT500s wheels... it'd work? since the rotors for this setup uses GT500 rotors.

The calipers from the GT500 are pretty beefy themselves. If the stock calipers will fit behind my wheels from the factory, I would assume the C5 calipers will be fine? I hope?

[Zack]

Good point. I can't speak for the difference in offset though.

[drac]

Good point. I can't speak for the difference in offset though.

Which also is a valid point. The GT500 rims seem to have quite a bit of space between the spokes and the calipers (almost a full inch) so it appears that it should be fine. The spokes flare out from the inner hub a little more aggressively then other mustang rims I have noticed. (Probably because of the "big brakes" from the factory)

[ctrlraven]

Would these calipers work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CORVETTE-C5-SSBC-FORCE-10-RED-TRI-POWER-CALIPER-NEW-/120612448737

[Jolly Roger]

They shore is purdy.;)

[MEvans043]

lji372, any chance of another run of these?

I don't get on the forums nearly at all anymore so I'm just coming across this.

[ginger]

Get like 8-10 people and I believe he'll make a run. That's how we got the 2nd one going

[drac]

I know at least one guy that isnt on MMN that would be interested in a set if another run was done.

[colt45ws]

Does any one have pictures of the TCE hose kit? The paper with the kits says:
"2 17" hoses with 90 ends"
90 meaning 90 degrees?
They are all 20 degrees. Im confused. I thought I had seen pictures in this thread or the other one but haven't found it.

[Todd TCE]

Read closely, only the Zach fronts are 90 degree.

All the OE stuff 20 degree.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/grr4tyewd1qa02d/Marauder%20SS%20hose%20kit%20P arts%20list%20and%20instructio ns.doc?dl=0

[colt45ws]

Read closely, only the Zach fronts are 90 degree.

All the OE stuff 20 degree.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/grr4tyewd1qa02d/Marauder%20SS%20hose%20kit%20P arts%20list%20and%20instructio ns.doc?dl=0

Thats what I thought.

[Todd TCE]

Correction here done, have both styles in stock now also.

[JBeezy]

Can anyone that has done this mod with C5 calipers tell me what was the best angle for the 90* line at the brake caliper? Don't want to run into a issue with the line rubbing anything

[Zack]

Can anyone that has done this mod with C5 calipers tell me what was the best angle for the 90* line at the brake caliper? Don't want to run into a issue with the line rubbing anything

You have to install it and check for yourself.

With the wheel dangling and at ride height.

Maybe they can give you a starting point...

[Logizyme]

Angle it so that the hose hovers just about the lower control arm. Almost horizontal but slightly downward.

I put wireloom around all my hoses for protection and to give me a quick visual if anything is rubbing, so far no rubbing 3k miles and one track day.

[JBeezy]

Great idea. I'll pick up some as soon as I can leave my home. We are covered in snow. The weatherman actually called it rite this time

[JBeezy]

Quick pic as I test fit the wheel. I likey. Tight fit but perfect.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/26/a74463a19b8138c76bccc81a13246e 7e.jpg