Axle shaft question

[fbird18]

Hey everybody. I am thoroughly confused on this subject at this point. I have an 03 300A with a build date of 6/14/02. Those have a soft axle issue apparently, and mine had play up/down/left/right, so I figured the bearings were eating into the axles. I ordered the Dorman sets from Auto Parts Warehouse, that came with 28 spline axles. They didn't offer a 31 spline axle for my car. And from what I have read and understand, my car should have 28 splines.

Well I pulled the rear end apart last night with my new parts sitting beside me ready to be installed. And as I compared the splined ends, they were different. The old, and bearing wore out, axle has 31 splines...wtf? Did the previous owner swap out the original axles and gears for a 31 spline setup? Can anyone set me straight on what supposed to be there and maybe why mine had 31 splines?

I'm going to be contacting Auto Parts Warehouse today as soon as I can and see what they'll do for me. Any help?? Thanks in advance if you can.

[fastblackmerc]

Marauders all came from the factory with 28 splines. Obviously the previous owners changed them to 31 splines. Contact Moser for 31 spline axles.

[fbird18]

Thank you. I thought I read that Moser axles were not so good? Is that still the case or was that even an issue? Also I thought I read that ford went to 31 splines in all panther cars after 05. Is that true? Could I just get Crown Vic axles from ford if I wanted? Could someone confirm if that is possible?

On that subject, are marauder axles any different than what was used in Crowns, Marqs or Town Cars of the same year?

Sorry for all the questions but with all the searching I have done, I'm starting to get conflicting information on whats what. Knowledge is power you know, and I want to know it all....in due time anyway :D

[fastblackmerc]

Thank you. I thought I read that Moser axles were not so good? Is that still the case or was that even an issue? Also I thought I read that ford went to 31 splines in all panther cars after 05. Is that true? Could I just get Crown Vic axles from ford if I wanted? Could someone confirm if that is possible?

On that subject, are marauder axles any different than what was used in Crowns, Marqs or Town Cars of the same year?

Sorry for all the questions but with all the searching I have done, I'm starting to get conflicting information on whats what. Knowledge is power you know, and I want to know it all....in due time anyway :D

Mosers are still good.

I think the late model limos all had 31 splines as well as late model panthers.

[ctrlraven]

2005 and up CVPI axles are 31-spline I believe.

[RubberCtyRauder]

It was during mid-year in 2005 when CV etc. got 31 spline axles..based on build date

[fbird18]

Again, thank you.

This is so confusing. :confused: There must be a lot of misinformation out there. I'm reading quite a bit about CV and Marqs having shorter axle shafts. Can someone confirm if there are differences? All I can do is keep searching and trying to find enough information that matches. Because as it sits now, my car is up without axles and I need to get it put back together soon. I've only got a motorcycle to take to work now and I don't know how long I'll have sunny weather. :help:

[RubberCtyRauder]

1998-2002 axles would be shorter, but they were not 31 spline either

[fbird18]

Dorman #630-413 is the one I was finally able to track down. I would have liked OEM ford or even the Mosers, but don't have that much currently to spend. Not knowing what was actually put into my car before I bought it made this difficult. The people at Auto Parts Warehouse were just as confused as I was, but we were able to find this part and are fairly sure it will fit. And if it doesn't they'll take it back no problem.

The only question mark is the length of the shaft. Their catalog says
#630-214 is a direct fit for 03 crown vics, grand marquis, town cars with 28 splines and 34.3" length.
#630-413 is a direct fit for 07 crown vics with 31 splines and 34.5" length.

Why the .2" difference? They said they didn't get those numbers from Dorman, that their web guys take care of stuff like that. So just a mistake by the web guys? There is no way ford changed the length of the shafts did they? Anyone know?

[RF Overlord]

What's the length of the 31-spline axles from your car?

[fbird18]

I'm not sure, I'd have to check when I get home. What is being measured when they throw those numbers out? From the end to the face of the hub?

[fastblackmerc]

From Moser's website:

Part #: A883103 (1-Pair)
Mfg: Ford
Model: Marauder
Year: 2003 & 2004
Rear End: 8.8”
Spline Count: 31
Length: 34 3/8" long
Bolt Pattern: 5 X 4 1/2” (.625” Knurl press-in)

[JBeezy]

Alloy USA has some nice 31 spline axles. I have those in my Mustang. Ordered them from summit

[2,4shofast]

I have had the Moser's and had issues, I havent had any issues with the CVPI 31 spline axle. My personal experience with them.

[MOTOWN]

I have the Mosers in my Marauder , and ive had them in other builds , and ive never had an issue with them.

[Mr. Man]

So axles for a 2006-up CV or does it have to be a CVPI have the 31 splines?

Does Ford Racing make 31 splines that fit the MM? (not worried about cost)

[lifespeed]

2005+ panther axles are correct.

[JohnE]

I had issues with NAPA 28 spline axles on my 2000 Grand Marquis. The metal was not properly hardened. Replaced it with OEM and never had another problem. Yes, it's still in my fleet and doing great.

I used OEM 31 spline 2005+ axles when I installed a Boss 302 Torsen in the Marauder a few years back. No issues at all with this setup yet.


John

[fbird18]

It turns out the new 31 spline axles are slightly longer than the ones that were in my car. About 3/16" longer in the middle of the shaft. The end where the c clip slides on is the same as what was in my car to begin with.

So I'm thinking there won't be an issue inside the differential with the cross pin as the gap between the end of the shaft and the cross pin look the same as the other side that still has the "original" axle. That means the hub is pushed out an extra 3/16". I put the rotor and brake caliper back on to make sure it would fit, and it does.

Anyone think the extra length is bad? Maybe all the newer axles are this length and I am thinking too much into all this?

Also I'm an idiot and forgot to back out the abs sensor when I was trying to get the c clip off and was screwing around with everything and the top and bottom spider gears fell out...:bigcry:... Was trying last night to get those back in place, no such luck. Any tips?:help:

[Ken]

I was on my way back from Georgia last Sunday and noticed the start of the oil spraying on my L/R rim. Dropped it at my mechanic's on Monday night, He called a couple days later after he got into it and told me about my axles, they look just like the OP's photo. 300a, purchased 6/26/02. Took just over 69k to develop. Oh well, killed my trip to the Woodward Dream Cruise today, maybe next year. :mad2:

[fbird18]

OK, got it all put back together and just filled the fluid up and was gonna go test drive it, but the rear end won't raise up to ride height. I've tried unhooking the battery, checked all the fuses, checked the trunk switch. Nothing is working. I know I didn't mess with it when I was under there. Any ideas?? And I know it worked when I started working on the axles.

[fastblackmerc]

OK, got it all put back together and just filled the fluid up and was gonna go test drive it, but the rear end won't raise up to ride height. I've tried unhooking the battery, checked all the fuses, checked the trunk switch. Nothing is working. I know I didn't mess with it when I was under there. Any ideas?? And I know it worked when I started working on the axles.

Check the ride height adjuster on the Watts link.

[fbird18]

I've looked at it. Don't know what its supposed to look like. It moves up and down. I can hear clicks from the area when I turn the key on like it wants to work. Everything looks like I think it should.

[fbird18]

For anyone reading this for information, the axles from Dorman #630-413 work just fine. The axle costs $117 from autopartswarehouse.com and comes with ABS ring and studs installed, new chrome lugnuts, a bearing and a seal. The bearings they came with are the exact same part number as the $40 bearings from Ford. The seals were different style than the Ford seals. I liked the OEM seals better, so I bought those from the dealer.

Got that all installed and filled with almost 2 1/2 qts of Royal Purple 75w-140, and it's like a brand new car back there! Thanks guys!

Thank you for this How-to post by Blackened300a:
"We should probably make this a sticky on how to do this job. Its not all that bad if you have the right tools.

Remove the rear wheels
Remove the brake caliber and rotor.
Remove the 8mm bolt thats holding the ABS sensor in the back of the parking brake assembly
Remove the rear diff cover and drain fluid
Turn the diff around and remove the 7MM bolt on the top of the carrier thats holding in the center pin.
Remove the center pin.
DO NOT REMOVE THE "S" SPRING FOR A AXLE SWAP!
Turn the axle a bit to make sure it pushes all the way into the carrier.
You'll see the "C" Clip on the axle stub, use a magnet or needle nose pliers to remove then slide the axle out.
Head over to a autozone or a place that rents tools and pick up a bearing puller that attaches to the end of a slap hammer. Its the only tool that will remove the bearing and seal.
Slap them out and use a oversize socket to replace the bearing and seal.
Reverse the order and you are good to go.
Just be sure to use friction modifier when replacing the fluid unless you are using a fluid that already contains the additive like RP or Amsoil.

If you are planing on upgrading the clutches then the "S" spring must be removed as well as the spider gears. Reinstalling them will be much more difficult then replacing the axles. Also if you are replacing the axles, use heat to remove the ABS rings if your new axles don't have them included."

The directions are spot on and the job was actually very easy.

[GreekGod]

You said "I pulled the rear end apart last night". How far did you go? Did you clean out all the bearing material from the interior and oil?

================

[fbird18]

You said "I pulled the rear end apart last night". How far did you go? Did you clean out all the bearing material from the interior and oil?

================

I'm pretty sure after draining out the oil, that it all looked fine, no bearing material to be seen.

Update:
I dropped the car off last night at a shop because the rear passenger axle seal was starting to leak and that same familiar sound from a year and a half ago. Turns out the axle needs to be replaced again... I replaced the axles, seals, and bearing on both sides in august 2014. The driver side was fine but replaced it all just because. Now, apparently, I have the exact same problem on the exact same side as last time... Any thoughts on why that might be?

Bearing material floating around in only the passenger side wrecked another bearing and axle?

The axle housing tube is slightly bent and causes the bearing to ride not even on the axle?

Poor quality Dorman Axles?

I'm just afraid in 18 months from now I'll be doing this job again. The shop said there isn't anything obviously wrong back there.

[Comin' in Hot]

Here is my thread, it will help!!

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88972

[RF Overlord]

Poor quality Dorman Axles?I used Dorman axles on Mary's car in 2010...had to replace them again just under 2 years later. Heard the same from others and members over on CVN.

[GreekGod]

I used Dorman axles on Mary's car in 2010...had to replace them again just under 2 years later. Heard the same from others and members over on CVN.

What was wrong with them?

==

[RF Overlord]

Same thing that was wrong with the originals...huge grooves worn in the bearing area.

[lifespeed]

The sad truth is the axle design is basically hopeless. You will keep replacing them over and over, depending on the vagaries of axle metallurgy and use of the car.

The only lasting solution is to switch to semi-floating or full floating axles. The most cost-effective approach is to ship your axle housing to Dutchman Axles to retrofit a proper pressed-on bearing and axle housing end to your housing. They have done this before and have a proven solution. I chose to go the Ford 9" full floater (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99270) route, but have since been stalled out by a blown engine.

There is no real solution that utilizes factory style C-clip axles. These are cheap and barely work in lighter-weight cars. They flat out don't work in the panther.

[MOTOWN]

The sad truth is the axle design is basically hopeless. You will keep replacing them over and over, depending on the vagaries of axle metallurgy and use of the car.

The only lasting solution is to switch to semi-floating or full floating axles. The most cost-effective approach is to ship your axle housing to Dutchman Axles to retrofit a proper pressed-on bearing and axle housing end to your housing. They have done this before and have a proven solution. I chose to go the Ford 9" full floater (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99270) route, but have since been stalled out by a blown engine.

There is no real solution that utilizes factory style C-clip axles. These are cheap and barely work in lighter-weight cars. They flat out don't work in the panther.

As much as I love the 9" floater you built , your post is 100% incorrect! The 8.8" under the Marauder is a good rear end that unfortunately had a bad run of axles that were improperly heat treated, or not at all, but the rear end doesn't eat axles , i had 107k on my oem 28 Splines when I upgraded, and they were in perfect condition, i gave them to another member who was in need.
When setup properly the Axles will last a long time.

[GreekGod]

Same thing that was wrong with the originals...huge grooves worn in the bearing area.

I suspect you had a housing contaminated with old bearing material. After my last axle failure, I completely removed and disassembled the housing. Even after a #3,000 power wash I had to scrub the axle tubes with solvent and brushes to remove all traces of bearing material.

There is a hidden area under the pinion stem that is difficult to access:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/PalletsMay232012_006.jpg

[GreekGod]

As much as I love the 9" floater you built , your post is 100% incorrect! The 8.8" under the Marauder is a good rear end that unfortunately had a bad run of axles that were improperly heat treated, or not at all, but the rear end doesn't eat axles , i had 107k on my oem 28 Splines when I upgraded, and they were in perfect condition, i gave them to another member who was in need.
When setup properly the Axles will last a long time.

I concur with your sentiments.

Even the GM Salisbury axle version (that Ford copied) can easily last 100K miles and more without a seal and/or bearing failure. Yes it is a poor design compared to Ford's 9" with it's semi-floating shafts, but it is adequate for most service. There is a limousine wheel bearing option, presumably for an extended wheelbase (and a higher load capacity).

==

[RF Overlord]

I suspect you had a housing contaminated with old bearing material. You know, I wondered about that but when I had a pro do the second replacement, he said he did not have to change the carrier bearings nor the pinion bearing. Wouldn't those have been damaged as well?

[lifespeed]

As much as I love the 9" floater you built , your post is 100% incorrect! The 8.8" under the Marauder is a good rear end that unfortunately had a bad run of axles that were improperly heat treated, or not at all, but the rear end doesn't eat axles , i had 107k on my oem 28 Splines when I upgraded, and they were in perfect condition, i gave them to another member who was in need.
When setup properly the Axles will last a long time.

The carrier and gears are fine, the axle/bearing arrangement is garbage. It places too much stress on the materials and is a marginal design for the load. If the reality were otherwise people wouldn't be changing axles and bearings all the time.

Any rear end shop, taxi or limo company will say the same thing. They change axles and bearings like underwear.

There is a relatively easy, cost-effective fix available. You don't need to install a 9".

[lifespeed]

I concur with your sentiments.

Even the GM Salisbury axle version (that Ford copied) can easily last 100K miles and more without a seal and/or bearing failure. Yes it is a poor design compared to Ford's 9" with it's semi-floating shafts, but it is adequate for most service. There is a limousine wheel bearing option, presumably for an extended wheelbase (and a higher load capacity).

==

I don't think there is a larger wheel bearing option for 2003+ panthers, there may have been for 2002 and earlier.

"Adequate" is being generous, the design is a total crapshoot as to whether it will run 100K or 30K. People often run these for many miles after they have started chewing into the axle, only repairing when they leak oil on the brakes and fill the housing with metal shavings. I don't consider that part of a usable lifespan when the axle shafts move up and down inside the bearing and the rear end rumbles going down the road.

[Lowndex]

I don't think there is a larger wheel bearing option for 2003+ panthers, there may have been for 2002 and earlier.

"Adequate" is being generous, the design is a total crapshoot as to whether it will run 100K or 30K. People often run these for many miles after they have started chewing into the axle, only repairing when they leak oil on the brakes and fill the housing with metal shavings. I don't consider that part of a usable lifespan when the axle shafts move up and down inside the bearing and the rear end rumbles going down the road.

I agree the stock Marauder rear end is inadequate. If you want your Panther as a daily driver, you are probably going to get longer life. But if you like driving into and out of corners hard, drag racing, etc.., I would follow Lifespeed's advice and upgrade.

[GreekGod]

You know, I wondered about that but when I had a pro do the second replacement, he said he did not have to change the carrier bearings nor the pinion bearing. Wouldn't those have been damaged as well?

Perhaps? I don't know - if he is a conscientious professional he would have inspected for contamination. I do know the tiny metal specs are difficult to see, but a rag wipe makes the dirt obvious. They get everywhere from the lube turbulence.

It's hard to believe Ford had bad bearing surface heat treatment with the first 50 or so cars they built (including mine -- #54?). With modern manufacturing, production/Statistical Process Control should always catch bad parts -- maybe that's why only the first 4 or 5 dozen or so Marauders had bad axles?

==

[Marauderjack]

I had 177K miles on my OEM's and now have 89K on my replacements......I think they perform well and perhaps a better design would last longer.....MAYBE??:confused:

I'd say the design is sufficient for what the car was intended to do from the factory!!:beer:

Blowers, Turbos, Nitrous, Burnouts and Drag racing were probably not in the original design equation??:shake:

[Turbov6Bryan]

I'd like to see the wear area of the axle before making a statement on what caused the damage

If you keep wearing a groove in the axle shaft, then its possible you have a bent axle tube. Not uncommon on a 8.8 rear


Show us the damage, then we can figure it out

[fbird18]

So I got my car back a while ago, and it's all good again, but one thing still confuses me. I replaced both axles 2 years ago with dorman parts. The passenger side was wrecked (grooved) and driver side looked perfect. But replaced both because I wanted to start over fresh. Fast forward to last month. The shop replaced just the passenger side due to the bearing making a groove. The driver side was fine. Again.

People want to tell me it's because the Dorman axles are crap. But the driver side continues to be fine with the replacement Dorman axle, and whatever was in there the first time I did this. Others want to say the axle tube is bent. But the mechanic couldn't find any real evidence of that.

I don't know guys. It's a frustrating issue. It is a stock car with 160k on it and I don't race or anything. I just use it as my daily driver.

Here is a picture of the replaced axle. The mechanic needed to put the axle back in to move my car while he waited for the new one and had to file down the inside of the groove to get it back in the car. He said it was mushroomed out. He also commented on how soft the metal was. Said he couldn't believe how easy it was to file it down...

[lifespeed]

Like I said, it is a crap design that is subject to the hardening treatment being as good as possible to turn an axle shaft into a hard bearing surface. These are conflicting requirements; surface hardness for the bearing to roll on vs. torsional strength with some give.

Unless you can find a flaw external to the axle like a bent tube or bearing installed crooked, this is just the nature of the beast.

Next time this happens (and there will be a next time if you keep it long enough), pull the axle assembly out and ship it to Dutchman axles for a proper pressed-on preloaded tapered roller bearing retrofit. It will last forever, and roll smoooooth.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Almost makes you wonder if the inside diameter of the outer bearing was too large causing slop, then factor in the weight of the car

If your mechanic wanted to check for axle tube straightness, he should have removed the outer bearing, installed the axle, and looked at it

If the axle wasn't centered, cut the axle flange off, recenter it with the axle, weld it back to center and that issue is fixed

You know it's not axles or bearings causing it because both sides would do it

HTH

[RF Overlord]

I'm not gonna argue the relative merits of the 8.8 vs. the 9" but it does seem that the majority of the axle shafts that went bad prematurely were on the passenger side. (That happened with Mary's car, too). According to CVN, most of the bad axle shafts on CVs and MGMs were also the passenger side. :dunno:

[Marauderjack]

I replaced both of mine at 177K miles but the driver's side was still perfect.....just wanted to do 'em both at the same time since the "kit" at the time had both axles!!:beer:

There have been millions of 8.8" FORD rear axles made and perhaps a few soft axle bearing surfaces caused problems but all in all they have worked very well over the years.....I have no reservations with mine!!;)

[GreekGod]

Almost makes you wonder if the inside diameter of the outer bearing was too large causing slop, then factor in the weight of the car

If your mechanic wanted to check for axle tube straightness, he should have removed the outer bearing, installed the axle, and looked at it

If the axle wasn't centered, cut the axle flange off, recenter it with the axle, weld it back to center and that issue is fixed

You know it's not axles or bearings causing it because both sides would do it

HTH

Your reasoning is faulty on several points, but I will only comment on the idea that you can:

"cut the axle flange off, recenter it with the axle, weld it back to center and that issue is fixed"

Proper axle flange replacement requires removal and disassembly of the entire axle assembly, a special bar fixture and collet to align the flange with both ends of the axle tube, an experienced and skilled welder to weld the flange on (after proper preparation of the weldment area), and THEN straightening the tube alignment on a hydraulic press (because welding warps everything).

re:
http://www.lowrider.com/how-to-tech/1602-currie-enterprises-rear-axles/

==

[Dragcity]

I just went from 28 spline OEM to 31 spline in a Detroit Trutrac. The OEM axles were in perfect condition. Wheel bearings and seals were replaced once when I put the 4.10 gearset in at 50,000 miles. Car now has 105,000 on it.

I ordered FoMoCo 2005 CVPI axles. The fitment was a bit tricky, but I'll tell you things are very tight and there is no slop side to side any longer. Hope it all lasts another 105,000 miles.

The point I am making is I like to use FoMoCo parts. I realize there were issues early on with the axles. I used all Ford parts, except the Detroit TruTrac. Just got tired of wiping out clutch packs and sheering tabs off in the differential. I went through four cans of brake cleaner and a box of rags and lots of compressed air cleaning out my housing.

How is the bearing mating surface at the end of the axle tube? Is it perfectly round? Is the bearing maybe being forced out of round?

Lastly, Passenger side is the torque heavy side, so that makes sense that that one wipes out more often. Good luck solving this issue.