A compelling Question:

[BillyGman]

ofcourse, this isn't car related let alone Marauder related, which is why I've placed it in this forum. I heard a guy on a local radio station pose the following question, and I just feel compelled to ask it on here, since this issue breifly came up recently in another thread:

If you think the use of steroids should be banned from baseball, football, and other professional sports, which are basically in existence for our entertainment, then do you also think that women w/breast implants should be banned from wet T-shirt contests??? If not, then please explain the difference as you see it. :D

[TAF]

I'm not touching ANY of this with a ten-foot pole...the subject, steroids...and most certainly...implants.

[MI2QWK4U]

Billy....Billy.....Billy....

[BillyGman]

aawww, you guys are chicken.......comon, lets have a little straightforward honesty here......anyone else brave enough???? What's to hide???? Speak your mind....

[MERCMAN]

aawww, you guys are chicken.......comon, lets have a little straightforward honesty here......anyone else brave enough???? What's to hide???? Speak your mind....


ok here is my take,, steroids are for performance enhancement on the court, field etc. Breast implants only enhance the visual impact, has nothing to do with performance. The age old question, if you relate it to cars,, which is better, performance or looks? Besides, what else are we going to do with all that silicone? You can only caulk so many bathtubs :lol:

[BillyGman]

LOL....okay, that's a little better. I can't say that I fully agree, but atleast you've had the fortitude to voice your opinion on this subject, so I'll hold back my opinion until we get some more responses. Good show.....

[MapleLeafMerc]

ofcourse, this isn't car related let alone Marauder related, which is why I've placed it in this forum. I heard a guy on a local radio station pose the following question, and I just feel compelled to ask it on here, since this issue breifly came up recently in another thread:

If you think the use of steroids should be banned from baseball, football, and other professional sports, which are basically in existence for our entertainment, then do you also think that women w/breast implants should be banned from wet T-shirt contests??? If not, then please explain the difference as you see it. :D

What if I think that some implants can look wonderful, but Mark McGuire should have an asterisk beside his records?

[mpearce]

Why don't we make the guys get the implants and have the women take the steroids...then see what happens??

[BillyGman]

Okay, MapleLeaf, a thought provoking question indeed.......and that question has also provoked me to offer my opinion (but the provocation was one in a good way).......

I think it's a contradiction for a man to demand that steroids be banned from professional sports(especially when they will never be anyway despite any testing that's done on the althletes) or even to have an asterisk next to names like Barry Bonds #'s(no, I'm not a Barry Bonds fan either), while at the same time, you fully accept a woman contestant in a wet T-shirt contest OR even in a beauty pagent having breast implants.

Here's why I say this:

you can try to throw the argument out here like has already been done about "performance" vs. "looks".......however, since the main reason for professional sports is for entertainment, just as beauty pagents and even wet T-shirt contests are, it doesn't make any difference. It's all entertainment.

[woaface]

Not to be perved but I like it real and not much past D or F cup.

OOoopps! Did I say that outloud????!!!!

[BillyGman]

Why don't we make the guys get the implants and have the women take the steroids...then see what happens??

you can easily see what happens when women use steroids simply by picking up one of those muscle magazines that cover the "Ms. Olympia" contests. Look and you'll immeditely notice that atleast 40% of the "women" in those contests look like guys w/wigs on. And I'm not even refering to their bodies. Just take a good look at their faces.

And that's a direct result of women using anabolic steroids for years. This is because steroids are derivatives or deviations of the MALE sex hormone Testosterone. For women to use these compounds are the equivalent of a man who would use the female hormone Estrogen.(which BTW, is what men who will soon be undergoing a sex change operation are given in order to start growing breasts.....ewww, gross!!!).

[hitchhiker]

H@@TERS

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[TAF]

For women to use these compounds are the equivalent of a man who would use the female hormone Estrogen.(which BTW, is what men who will soon be undergoing a sex change operation are given in order to start growing breasts.....ewww, gross!!!).
You're showin just a l i t t l e too much "knowledge" on this subject, Billy... :P ;)

[BillyGman]

Not to be perved but I like it real and not much past D or F cup.

OOoopps! Did I say that outloud????!!!!

fine, nothing wrong w/that, but that's merely your preference, and doesn't neccessarily mean that contestants w/breast implants should be banned. Right? This isn't intended to be a sexually related question. This is about entertainment, contests, and sports. No perversion here on my part. Perhaps perversion is what my friend Todd("TAF") had on his mind, and maybe that's the reason why he chose to steer clear of this topic.

[BillyGman]

uh, see what I mean? Todd the "pervie" strikes again.....

[BillyGman]

You're showin just a l i t t l e too much "knowledge" on this subject, Billy... :P ;)

.....my knowledge goes past cars Todd.....however, it was your sister who told me about how she USED to have a sister named Toddamina......

so aren't there any sports fans who will approach this question w/out perversion????

[Donny Carlson]

How about a law that says you can take all the steriods you want, only you have to also have breast implants.:cool4:

[BillyGman]

well here's a fact that will blow your mind......if a guy uses dosages of certain steroids(there are many brands) that are excessive, he can begin to grow breast tissue due to the hormonal imbalance that the streroids are creating. It can wreak havoc w/a man's Endocrine system.

[woaface]

Well yeah, I have to agree with the performance/show issue. If you're doing it for show, you add "modifications" to win first in show...or whatever.

If you're doing it for performance, there's got to be a line drawn...and I guess if steriods are where it's drawn in sports, that so be it.

[BillyGman]

Well yeah, I have to agree with the performance/show issue. If you're doing it for show, you add "modifications" to win first in show...or whatever.

If you're doing it for performance, there's got to be a line drawn...and I guess if steriods are where it's drawn in sports, that so be it.

the reality is, that even if the althletes are tested for steroid use, that still will NOT stop it's use. it will simply hinder it a little. There are certain brands of steroids obtainable to the average athlete(let alone the elite athlete), that will leave the bloodstream and be undetectable merely a week or two after the dosage has been discontinued. However the benefits/results obtained by these hormonal agents can and often will remain for many months just as long as the individual in question continues to workout in the weight room.

The point being, that you will NEVER truly ban steroid use from sports, and their use is VERY widespread. More than most sports fans realize. The use of these compounds are partaken of by baseball pitchers, track athletes, collegent wrestlers, quarterbacks, etc., etc.

[woaface]

:lol: I'm not sure how much I want to be involved in this thread:)

[BillyGman]

I'm not condoning nor condemning the use of steroids. I'm merely listing facts, and being realistic.

[martyo]

uh, see what I mean? Todd the "pervie" strikes again.....

And that comes as a surprise???

[martyo]

Billy: You seem to be against implants, correct? Then you must hate the non-functional, "for looks only" hood scoop in the Gator Customs thread, eh?

[Smokie]

Billy, you sure do ask some interesting questions. I have strong opinions on both subjects.

About the girl that wants to enhance her profile, I don't have a problem with it, as long as it is in balance with the rest of her body. Sometimes they look very nice...other times grotesque.

Now about the sport that I grew up with, played at a competive level until about 40 and love dearly: BASEBALL.

My sport is already permanently damaged by the use of performance enhancing drugs and also by the players becoming bodybuilders with weights. Let me just state that no drug exist that will make anyone hit a 95 mph baseball, only practice and a God given talent. But how far the ball travels is greatly affected by the speed of the swing, pushed by bigger muscles.

Homerun records of the last 10 years are a mockery of my sport and a disgrace. Hank Aaron had the purest sweetest swing and hit his 755 HR's because he had magic in his wrists, which is the real source of power, not a 245 pound body, he never played at more than 187 lbs and in my humble opinion, was the last of the REAL baseball power hitters.:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[Dan]

Is it about entertainment or competition? A guy on a ball team is attempting to enhance his performance which makes him a better player and, in turn, increases his security in life by his being able to choose from more and better teams to go play for.

With implants isn't the same true? A woman with them is a better performer against other women who have her same physique. They make her more attractive to more men and therefore allow her the choice of more and better men to be with. :)

While on the subject of questions begging an answer, what do wax figures have in their ears? :)

Best,

Dan

[Smokie]

While on the subject of questions begging an answer, what do wax figures have in their ears? :)

Best,

Dan
.........Lint.

[Bluerauder]

ofcourse, this isn't car related let alone Marauder related, which is why I've placed it in this forum. I heard a guy on a local radio station pose the following question, and I just feel compelled to ask it on here, since this issue breifly came up recently in another thread:

If you think the use of steroids should be banned from baseball, football, and other professional sports, which are basically in existence for our entertainment, then do you also think that women w/breast implants should be banned from wet T-shirt contests??? If not, then please explain the difference as you see it. :D

OK, Billy .... I'll take a shot at this. And, I tend to support the thoughts put forward by Smokie.

This really gets to the question of natural talent and skill versus artificial enhancement. I much prefer the first where hard work, lots of practice, and constant training produce the best in sports. Steroids go to the root of our society's ever-increasing need for instant gratification and success to overcome personal shortcomings and insecurities.

Steroids and performance enhancing drugs are bad for the overall health of the users. We should not encourage it, not reward those that use them, and penalize those that do. And, probably more importantly, we should not be encouraging our young people to look up to such players who without the enhancement would probably be only mediocre performers.

Much the same applies to the implant question. Some women go to extreme lengths to appease what they think is important to many men. This is not necessarily so 'cause women don't understand men any better than men understand women. Reasonable and safe implants are OK if it is done from a positive aspect for the girl's/woman's self image. However, I have seen some Gosh Awful implant jobs that border on the freakish. I ain't into "freaks" in either the sporting industry or the wet T-shirt world.

Bottomline -- if you "need" steriods or implants to display your superior "freakish" performance attributes, then I believe they should be banned in both sports and Wet T-shirt contests.

How's that??? :D

[merc406]

Both have health risks, one is banned for good reason and the other should be but for reconstruction purposes.

[Logan]

Ensure this thread is kept clean pls...

[Bigdogjim]

Well Billy here is another way to look at it..

A S/C car is on "steroids":)

So now the topic is open to anything?

As far as the girls??

Just go to a Hooters:):):)

[BillyGman]

Very interesting comments here. First, let me say to Marty, no, I'm not neccessarily against women having implants. Sure, I'd rather see natural ones, but it seems to be a small minority of women who really have very attractive breasts naturally IMO. This thread isn't intended for perversion, nor to knock women for having implants, nor plastic surgery of any kind, but about sports enhancing drugs.

I agree w/what Dan said as far as the comparisant of female beauty contestants and male sports athletes. It's all competition in one way or another. And that's what my point also was. What's the difference? I see none. I understandf Smokie's point of view, and I thank him for sharing his well thought out opinion, because that's what I've asked for in this thread, especially because both Todd, and Dave chickened out on this one.

Am I against teenagers using steroids? Absolutely. Steroids mess w/the reproductive system, and can often leave a man w/a lower Testosterone level than he previously had before such drugs were used. Back before 1986, when anyone could simply go to their Physician and obtain a script for steroids for sports performance enhancement, I was one of those who obtained a few scripts from my Doc. However, instead of listening to every "Tom, Dick, & Harry" at my local gym, I began to purchase books on steroids, and Endocrinology,and go to Libraries to read books on the same to educate myself on such matters since I was concerned about the potential side effects.

And I had decided NOT to use the three scripts that I obtained from my Doc, and I discarded them. In addition to gaining that knowledge about steroids and the effects of their use, I also had two co-workers who were avid users of those substances. So it's because of those things that I happene to know a great deal about steroids.

I think it would be fine if you can eliminate steroid usage from all sports completely, but as I previously stated, it is NOT going to happen. Even the international Olympic games are rife w/steroid usage despite the testing that's done. And it isn't just weightlifters, and shot puters, and hammer throwers who use steroids. It's speed athletes too such as sprinters.

But as Smokie has pointed out, steroids alone will NOT make an athlete. It isn't a magic pill or needle that will make you a star. There still has to be hard work involved, and hours and hours of training. And some of that also requires a great deal of hand/eye coordination. I just think that it's unrealistic and downright rediculous for the media and the fans to focus in on a few athletes who are caught using steroids, because almost ALL of them use them, and unfortunately they're here to stay in professional sports weather we like it or not.

As for the other point that Smokie brought up about our kids having a bad example set for them by professional athletes using steroids, what about their drinking off the field? Drinking does just as much damage to the human body, and more damage to the mind than steroids will ever do. But just because drinking is far more widespread than steroid use is, and because it's legal, it's accepted by most parents as being okay. That's a contradiction if I ever heard one. I never heard of a steroid user running down an inicent by stander w/his automobile like many drunk drivers have done.

[woaface]

So if you take steriods and you can't reproduce much anymore or get your reproduction on, what do you do?

Take more pills to fix that...viagra or that new cialis!:lol:

[BillyGman]

it depends how long the person in question used steroids for w/out a break, and exactly which ones were used. There is a hormonal rebound effect that takes place after the dosage has been discontinued, and the longer the man has remained on a steroid cycle, the longer it will take for that rebound to occur, however, there is a duration interval for the steroid cycle, that if you go beyond that, you risk the gonads from never returning to normal function again ever.

So to answer your question, yes, those things can help some individuals, but it depends on how far gone their Endocrine system is as to weather or not things like Viagra and Cialis will work for them, since the real problem in a case like that is lack of Testosterone, and NOT lack of blood flow to that area of the anatomy which is really what Viagra and Cialis are for.

The thing that's very unfortunate with teeneagers using steroids(and ignorant also) is that testosterone is one of the best things for performance enhancement. That's why men are physically stronger than women, and always have more potential to gain muscle and strength through training than women do. it's because men have much more testosterone in their blood stream than women do (women do have about a 2% level whereas men have about a 98% level). And it just so happens that men have their highest levels of naturally occuring Testosterone when they're in their late teens. So taking steroids jeopardizes that physical advantage that they have at that point in their life to get stronger and quicker.

So for many teenage males, using steroids isn't only dangerous, but ius actually counterproductive to their quest at getting stronger, and quicker in the long run.

[duhtroll]

My thoughts:

Implants - Do what you want; it's your body. You choose to screw it up then you live with the consequences. Don't ask the taxpayers for help when the problems you have caused require medical attention. (they have yet to make this process NOT damaging in some way during or after their use)

Steroids - let's have an "all-drug" league. Same rules. Or - the team that's in last place gets the most steroids and so forth for the next season of play. Let's keep the current leagues drug-free.

I strongly dislike both, in case you haven't guessed. Neither improves a human in any way. (with the definition of improvement dealing with some relevance to survival or enhancement of the human condition, or not having more detriments than benefits, and neither implants nor steroids fit those criteria)

Thanks,
-A

[woaface]

Don't get me wrong Billy! I agree with you and Andrew at this point.

[O's Fan Rich]

I feel that when each is used in the appropriate situation, both are fine.
Besides it all gets down to vanity and taking short cuts.
Now.... where's that Viagra bottle?

[Smokie]

As for the other point that Smokie brought up about our kids having a bad example set for them by professional athletes using steroids, what about their drinking off the field? Drinking does just as much damage to the human body, and more damage to the mind than steroids will ever do. But just because drinking is far more widespread than steroid use is, and because it's legal, it's accepted by most parents as being okay. That's a contradiction if I ever heard one. I never heard of a steroid user running down an inicent by stander w/his automobile like many drunk drivers have done.
Billy I agree with what you say above, but I never wrote anything on this subject, reread my post.:)

[BillyGman]

Billy I agree with what you say above, but I never wrote anything on this subject, reread my post.:)

OOOOOPS!!!! Sorry Smokie! It was "tstrat99" who had mentioned the pro athletes being a bad example to kids because of steroid use. Thanks for the correction, and BTW, I'm glad that you understand the point I was making.

Smokie, I agree w/what you said about Hammerin Hank.I never watched him much when I was a kid(my two favorites were Willie McCovey, and Willie Mays), but I've seen film clips of his swing, and I did notice how well he turned over his wrists during his swing. Since I noticed that several years ago, even while playing softball I practiced doing that in the batting cage, and snapping my wrists really hard to generate more bat speed, and I began hitting the ball a lot harder and further.

However, I don't share your opinion about weight lifting and baseball. I say that because weight trained athletes are the best athletes. Do you remember how entertaining Bo Jackson was to watch on the baseball field before his football injury? I remember how he used to crush the ball when he hit it out. I also remember how immediately after running down a high line drive to catch it near the warning track, how he ran right up the outfield wall w/out even touching it w/his glove, nor his hand. Those are typical examples of what a weight trained athlete can do on the field. How about Ricky Henderson in his prime? Yes, I know that he tended to have an attitude problem, and therefore he wasn't always what you would call "Mr. Hustle", but that's another issue. The point is, he was obviously weight trained, and that helped his speed on the base pads tremendously.

[MapleLeafMerc]

If you think the use of steroids should be banned from baseball, football, and other professional sports, which are basically in existence for our entertainment, then do you also think that women w/breast implants should be banned from wet T-shirt contests??? If not, then please explain the difference as you see it. :D

I think it's sad that some records from the late 20th century and later are drug-assisted. Aaron was one of the last real record holders. I would not ask for bans though, as I'm a libertarian at heart.

[BillyGman]

There's simply a lot more to this issue than most sports fans know about. For instance, what about "HRT"??? That's Hormone Replacement Therapy. It's very typical for a number of middle aged men in our society to be placed on HRT by their Physicians beginning at an age as young as 35 years old. And that goes for men who aren't professional athletes.

What's HRT have to do w/steroids you say? It just so happens that one of the most potent hormonal substances that bodybuilders and athletes use to get bigger and stronger is Testosterone injections. And it's Testosterone that the Doc gives to some middle aged men for HRT. So if there are many average guys in our society who go on Testosterone to make-up for their low occuring natural Testosterone levels, so that things can be as they once were in the bedroom, then don't you think that there are MANY professional athletes as young as 35 years old who are ALSO receiving Testosterone for HRT??? You better believe it. Now, how are you gonna regulate or stop that? This is a personal choice that the athlete in question has made along w/his Doc. And it's accompanied by a legit script from his Doc.

But it just so happens that a fringe benefit of HRT is enhanced physical and athletic performance. Especially in the high end of the dosage scale.

[STLThunder]

Why don't we make the guys get the implants and have the women take the steroids...then see what happens??

I don't think I want to know any women with five o'clock shadow and bass voices, or men in need of a bra :lol:

[Smokie]

However, I don't share your opinion about weight lifting and baseball.
Billy, I been a baseball player and I have weight trained, I'm not against weight training, but I think that if you look at a lot ( not all ) of todays baseball players they look like football players. What should a baseball player look like ? Like any young man in good physical condition. Too many baseball players today look like linebackers, running backs, and some are the size of lineman.

Weight and height are necessary components of football and basketball players, baseball used to be a game of skill, size and weight were not necessary requirements of a baseball player.... that is rapidly changing, some records have become meaningless. That's all I have to say.

[BillyGman]

I kinda think that guys who have both strength and speed are more impressive to watch on the ball diamond because of their abilities. But again, I can respect and even understand your viewpoint Smokie. Thanks for offering another point of view.

[stevengerard]

Very interesting comments here. First, let me say to Marty, no, I'm not neccessarily against women having implants. Sure, I'd rather see natural ones, but it seems to be a small minority of women who really have very attractive breasts naturally IMO.

Very interesting Thread

I'll go out on a limb and point out the quote above is inherent to our society and the need for "perfection." Sociologists will point out that if it wasn't for so many breast implant's, Billy wouldn't be saying a minority of women have attractive ones. Because of breast enhancements and retouching in photos, males of the last 3 decades have grown up with the false images of what "beauty" really is. Their expectations have been formed by the media (Playboy) and the "ultimate living women" with breast implants.

As for steriod's they have done the same thing. The majority of steriods are used to get an "edge." In this age of the "biggest and best" the average fan is one who goes to the park to see the homeruns. I personally rather see a no-hitter or a defensive game with great running than a 24 - 20 homerun fest. But look at the salary difference between a Sammy Sosa and the next guy. Sammy has just started to do other things besides hit home runs (Yeah, I'm a sox fan), everyone else hitting behind him say to themselves - "if I could hit a few more home runs I'll be rich and famous." The temptations are great and have to be very difficult to resist - especially when the difference between the minor leagues and Mojor's is just so tiny. I am really against Steriod's because they are an artificial enhancement. I agree with Billy though that you will never completely eliminate them and they are hugely abused in all sports. As he mentioned the average fan doesn't recognize this. I used to be a power lifter and know what went on there. Recently I have purchased a muscle magazine, haven't looked at one in a decade. 20 years ago they all said it didn't exist, 10 years ago they were saying yes it does but don't do it. Read a magazine now. I was shocked to see howw they now tell you what drugs do what and when and why you should take them.

I guess I'm getting old, I miss my six pack and after 4 kids my wife's body ain't perfect (to those looking at implants) - but it is to me. SO I'll say no steriod's no implant's. Besides, implants hinder brest cancer detection, that alone should stop women from doing it.

[BillyGman]

Steven, I agree w/you about the whole sociology thing and what we've been exposed to through the media actually altering our tastes and standards. A very good point my friend. However, your comment about prefering to see a no-hitter or perhaps a pitchers' duel rather than a slug-fest indicates that you also might be included among us who have been influenced by "enhancements" be they surgically induced or chemically. I say that because I know that there are also baseball pitchers who throw harder than they would've otherwise because of STEROID use. And as I've mentioned before, base steelers as well as many other speed althletes are getting quicker because of STEROID use, and that's nothing new either. Do you remeber back in 1986 how the olympic 100 meter sprinter ben Johnson was banned for life because of Winstrol use(yes, "Winstrol' the steroid). What was rediculous is that the majority of olympic fans looked down on Ben Johnson for what he did while what they didn't realize was that he was merely the one who got caught, and that ALL of the fastest guys on the olympic tracks use steroids as do many base steelers in baseball. Yes, it has reached almost every aspect of sports.

So while I fully agree w/your conjecture, and I don't deny it, I also submit to you that your expectations of 95+ MPH fastballs coming off the arms of 170 lb 5'8" tall pitchers, and striking out 10+ batters per game, are also atleast to a certain degree due to steroid use by the athletes.

[stevengerard]

I'm not disagreeing with you as I beleive you are to be correct, enhancments have affected all areas of all sports, (well as an ex-competative cyclist as well, I will tell you that cycling is the cleanest sport on earth - doesn't mean folks aren't cheating or trying to, but...).

As Smokie said hitting a baseball is the most difficult thing to do in sports. It is also scientifically impossible to explain how we can catch a fly ball. Think about it. We judge bat speed, initial speed of ball, projectory, and direction of that ball, distance it will be going all while taking into acount the wind conditions. The ability to jump or run down that ball may have been enhanced but inherent skill needed is tremendous. Thus the pitching dual, a good curve ball is a good curve ball - smart pitchers don't have to have a 100 mph fast ball, as long as they make the change-up a different enough speed than the fast ball. Once again as Smokie said even hitting needs a basic amount of skill the average human doesn't posess. Strength never helped me, I can bench press more then Sammy but couldn't hit like him, never could - though I plyed a lot of baseball. Take away the juice and he'd still hit better than most.

[BillyGman]

No argument there. "Supplements" aren't everything, but they're simply one factor. As far as endurance athletes go, such as you've mentioned cyclists, steroid use is rare among them to my knowledge, however there are other things that are partaken of to increase their endurance such as "blood doping". And that has been going on for decades. Perhaps as long if not longer than steroid use.