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View Full Version : 4R70W Buzzing + Hot After Re-Installing Accumulator Springs



Blaine B.
02-19-2015, 05:24 PM
I will try to make this story as short as possible.

My car was originally not a Police Interceptor. It was a base model, elderly driven vehicle for about 65,000 miles before I acquired it in early 2009. Since then, I have changed just about everything that I could (minus the transmission tail shaft) to essentially convert the car into a Police Interceptor. I'm not kidding - I mean everything.

Anyway, we can talk about all of that goodness later. Since this post specifically refers to my transmission, I will stay on topic.

In July of 2010 I replaced the factory 12" torque converter with a re-manufactured 11.25" torque converter, compliments of the NTC Torque Converter shop in Chicago, Illinois. At the same time, I also installed a new Ford flex plate to accommodate the new bolt pattern of the smaller converter. This converter currently has about 40,000 miles on it.

In May of 2011 I installed a USED BC Automotive valve body, and removed the lower 1-2 and 2-3 accumulator springs. Essentially a J-Mod with some differences that I am not aware of. Everything was fine. I did install a new separator plate gasket, and also installed a new filter at the same time.

Fast forward to November of 2014, and I decided to re-install the lower springs for both the 1-2 and 2-3 accumulators. I did NOT replace the separator plate gaskets, but I did replace the filter once again.

Directly following the re-installation of these springs, I started hearing a buzzing noise when the transmission was warm. I originally attributed this buzz to the alternator, and drove over 1,000 miles since then with not ONE hiccup. My daily commute is only 4 miles each way, so the transmission rarely has a chance to get over 120 degrees, especially during the winter. However, in the initial test drive, I did see that the transmission fluid temperature did get up to about 220. I assumed that there was just some air in the cooler lines, and since my daily commute is never long enough to get the trans this hot, I really had not thought about it until recently.

Last week I was driving in Chicago for about 4 hours. My trans fluid temperature was getting HOT, I'm talking a steady 220-230 degrees. However, there was nothing abnormal about my shifting patterns. The buzzing sound was also audible. The buzzing is most audible in park or neutral when the RPMs are slightly higher. I recorded a video the following day, and was told by a transmission re-builder that this sound was the fluid pump sucking or purging air.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O9jJpQnUn8&list=UUPI0IsXyqiibAfF3QAdzSbg

His thought was that perhaps the filter dropped out of the valve body, or that the valve body gasket was leaking since I had not replaced it when I re-installed the accumulator springs, or that the main pressure regulator valve in the valve body was worn. Mind you, the buzzing sound and the hot transmission fluid temperatures suddenly started happening as SOON as I had got done re-installing the accumulator springs. I had no noises or high temperatures prior to that, and I have had my ScanGauge II hooked up since I got the car.

Anyway, fast forward to last weekend, I dropped the pan, and found that the filter was seated correctly. I then dropped the valve body, and pulled the 1-2 and 2-3 accumulator pistons. Everything looked fine. No debris in the pan.

I then pulled both covers on the valve body itself. I have never pulled these before, even when I got the valve body used. On the top side, I found no debris. So I continued to pull out every single valve, and found no signs of wear of debris anywhere.

When I got to removing the bottom cover, I found some black "plastic" looking debris. Photos of the debris can be found here: http://s20.photobucket.com/user/bbugaski/library/

Today, I was told that these particles must be from my torque converter, and that it had blown up. Now, I know that the guy that had this valve body before me DID have transmission and/or torque converter issues. It is possible that these plastic particles came from his transmission and are not from mine, since I had never opened up this valve body before.

I found these particles ONLY in the bottom half of the valve body. There was NOTHING else in my trans fluid pan, it was very clean. Of course, it had just been cleaned out about 1,000 miles prior.

Now I am very confused. The last thing that I have not done yet is cut open the filter, which only has 1,000 miles on it as well. Looking into the filter, I do not see any particles - of course, that isn't good enough. Perhaps cutting it open would be the best bet. Unfortunately, I do not have the old filter that I replaced 1,000 miles ago. Although, I wasn't having any issues at that time, either.

What is your opinion? I would like to know before I proceed. I cleaned out my valve body thoroughly, on both sides, purchased a brand new SuperTuff separator plate (I want to entirely eliminate the "shift kit"), 3 new gaskets for the valve body, and a Sonnax main pressure regulator valve for good measure.

What do you think is going on? As I stated, the buzzing and the trans fluid temperature issue started occurring RIGHT after I installed the lower springs for the 1-2 and 2-3 shift accumulators. Also, I have had absolutely NO transmission quirks throughout this entire time, even at full throttle. Absolutely none. No slippage and nothing strange AT ALL, minus the buzzing and warmer trans fluid temps!

Zack
02-19-2015, 08:12 PM
Not to be rude, but you sound like a hack.
Get a torque converter from a reputable company and have the trans gone through by a professional.
It always costs more to fix it right, after taking shortcuts

fastblackmerc
02-19-2015, 08:36 PM
Not to be rude, but you sound like a hack.
Get a torque converter from a reputable company and have the trans gone through by a professional.
It always costs more to fix it right, after taking shortcuts
I agree.
Installing a USED valve body....... your asking for trouble.

Blaine B.
02-20-2015, 08:01 AM
At any rate, I had no issues up until I re-installed the accumulator springs.

Yes, I should have entirely disassembled the valve body when I originally got it. But, that was about 4-5 years ago. To late for "what ifs."

But now that I have torn into it, all of the valves are nearly the definition of perfection. So what's the big deal?

Regardless, I just want to attempt to get this current issue solved. Please don't attack me for my methods. I'm not a racer and I don't beat on my car, so I have absolutely no apologizes about not spending thousands to soup it up. Any effort or time that I put into my car comes from me and me alone.

By the way, Zack, I see that you are in St. John. I'm right here in Munster, FYI.

Blaine B.
02-21-2015, 02:46 PM
I just got done installing the valve body. I went through every valve again, just to make sure everything was installed properly. I then installed the Sonnax main pressure valve, even though the one in my valve body was perfectly fine (as were all of the other valves.)

I then installed the 3 new gaskets and wet them with Mercon V prior to assembly. Torqued all bolts to 90 inch-pounds.

I also installed the new SuperTuff separator plate and the little "cap" for distributing the load of the 2-3 accumulator.

Anyway, I took a 15 minute cruise around town. Everything shifts perfectly. But when I got back into my driveway, I once again heard the buzz! The exact same buzz as before.

At that time, the trans fluid temp was only about 130 degrees.

I also reset the PCM. Actually, the battery was disconnected all week.

License2Bill
02-21-2015, 03:17 PM
For the money you spent buying your car and modding it to look like a Police Interceptor, you could have bought a PI and paid for better quality parts so you wouldn't be in this predicament

Blaine B.
02-21-2015, 03:19 PM
You're making assumptions on things that you do not know anything about.

Regardless, that information is not helpful at all. I am not sure how any of this could have been originally brought on, just by re-installing some accumulator springs 3 months ago.

Blaine B.
02-21-2015, 03:44 PM
I am not at all upset and have absolutely no regrets about anything regarding my build.

I am just more confused than anything at all...

Blaine B.
02-23-2015, 01:04 PM
I have a new theory that came from the NTS torque converter re-builder shop.

They said it was a common problem to have the temperature sensor in the plastic harness go bad, which will therefore tell the transmission to increase line pressure, which might be the buzzing that I am hearing.

They said that torque converter issues were normally bearing related, which wouldn't cause excessive heat.

They also said it could be a remote possibility that the TCC lockup solenoid is failing, although I should be getting a code - which I have no flashing O/D light or any codes of any kind.

Just some new info straight from the re-builders. They apparently chatted with a guy who has done a lot of taxi fleet maintenance in the city, and then called me back with his opinions regarding my description of the problems.

Blaine B.
02-23-2015, 05:54 PM
Some photos when I was in the valve body last week. This is how clean it was after hearing this buzzing for over 1,000 miles.

Blaine B.
02-24-2015, 06:14 PM
After work I took a 1 hour cruise to attempt to further diagnose this buzz & hot fluid temp. I took a cruise on the highway and did plenty of full throttles. I did manage to get the trans fluid temp up to 206F, but every single time I let off the throttle, the temperature dropped back down and did not continue to rise. Of course I wasn't driving for 4+ hours, but either way, I am not sure what that 230F temperature was all about when I was in the city.

Of course, my phone battery died while I was recording the entire "test" and the video didn't save. Anyway, I was attempting to show that the trans was shifting and responding beautifully, even at highway speed full throttle.

I have not YET laid down on the ground to diagnose the buzz, but I was prodding around some more and definitely noticed that the noise was MUCH more evident on the driver side of the motor. If I put my head down near the control arm near the air intake, that seems to be the loudest location - which was right above my phone in the original video I uploaded that showcased the buzzing noise.

If I do the same on the passenger side, it is almost non existent.

If it was the transmission, pump, or torque converter, I would think that the noise would be somewhat equal regardless of what side you were on.

I unhooked the idle air controller thinking that it could be the culprit (sometimes they make a horn type noise) and that is not at blame. I also squeezed the power steering return hose a bit, and that noise is entirely different. My power steering box and/or pump are leaking, though.

So yes....unfortunately I don't have the video to show you how nice and crisp the shifts are.

Anyway, I think that this Superior SuperTuff plate mated with Darrin's BCA valve body and a Sonnax main pressure regulator is a fantastic combo. I didn't drill anything on the plate, yet the shifts are quick and crisp. When the car was bone stock with the original valve body, it felt so sloppy and drawn out, especially at full throttle.

The combination that I have right now is absolutely perfect and exactly what I was looking for all along. I would say that it now shifts pretty similarly to how the newer cars shift! Not sloppy, but not hard, either. I still feels stock, but not sloppy.

So yes, I have a difficult time believing that I have an significantly wrong any transmission components. I just don't see it in my testing, and pushing the car into the upper range RPMs.

Blaine B.
02-26-2015, 02:24 PM
I found the source of the buzzing - it comes from the oil filter! No joke. It is DEFINITELY coming from the oil filter. The transmission and torque converter are pretty much silent at idle.

Now, what could be buzzing? Oil pump? Pressure sending unit? As I mentioned before, there were a few occasions where I would notice the oil pressure gauge bouncing around while the buzzing was occurring. As soon as I gave it some throttle where the buzzing stopped, the oil pressure gauge would go right back to normal.

Since this buzzing began in November, I actually REPLACED the oil filter housing/adapter and gasket because I installed a P71 oil cooler. However, I re-used the original oil pressure sender. This change had absolutely no affect on the buzzing sound at all.

The only thing that I didn't test today was un-plugging the oil pressure sender to see if that had any affect on the buzzing sound. The gauge isn't bouncing around anymore, though, ever since I cleaned the connection when I swapped oil filter housings.

Fastbob
02-26-2015, 03:58 PM
Brand of oil filter??

Blaine B.
02-26-2015, 04:40 PM
I am using a Prime Guard filter. However, I have been using these filters for years. When a local Taxi company phased out their Crown Victorias, I bought a box full of filters from them.

And also, this buzzing has been occurring with two different filters. I really do not think that it is the filter, but I could be wrong I suppose.

Fastbob
02-26-2015, 05:16 PM
I am using a Prime Guard filter. However, I have been using these filters for years. When a local Taxi company phased out their Crown Victorias, I bought a box full of filters from them.

And also, this buzzing has been occurring with two different filters. I really do not think that it is the filter, but I could be wrong I suppose.Put a Motorcraft filter on and I would guess the noise will be gone. My guess is the oil pump is buzzing the filter bypass.

Blaine B.
02-26-2015, 05:18 PM
I will try it, but I didn't have any trouble with the many other filters I put on there out of this batch. I will also put in my junkyard spare pressure sender from the oil cooler version. I had re-used sender that was in my car, in the replacement oil filter adapter.

Also, more troubling is the 230' transmission fluid temperature when I was in Chicago a few weeks ago. Apparently un-related, but it still happened.

A few too many coincidences between the buzzing and the accumulator spring re-installation, and then the fluid temperature issue as well.

PS, I also use these Prime Guard oil filters on a 2005 Mercury Montego with 3.0 Duratec. No strange buzzing noises with that car. I have used many filters and much of the batch of filters is depleted.

Mr. Man
02-27-2015, 03:39 PM
Since you don't seem to have a problem tearing things apart have you just tried taking the springs back out to see if the buzz stops?

Blaine B.
02-27-2015, 03:43 PM
No I did not, but at this point, I have found it to be engine related and not transmission related.

Blaine B.
03-03-2015, 09:03 AM
I do have some Motorcraft filters on order, but for the time being I swapped in another Prime Guard filter. I haven't had any buzzing in two days.

Strange how two back-to-back filters produced the same issue.

Regardless, the transmission shifts perfectly. Very well balanced and comfortable, yet quick and precise.

As for the heat that it experienced on that one evening, I may look into an auxiliary cooler, but this car already has an original auxiliary cooler with the thermostat, in front of the radiator.

RF Overlord
03-03-2015, 12:41 PM
Prime Guard is a "jobber" filter used by quick-lube places. For a lousy $3.97 at Wally World, there's no reason not to use the factory-recommended Motorcraft filter. It has a silicone ADBV and a thread-end bypass valve, which is the configuration preferred by Ford.

Blaine B.
03-10-2015, 06:36 PM
Here is how the car shifts with the 2004 valve body, Sonnax main valve, Superior SuperTuff separator plate, and re-built NTC 11.25" torque converter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btodfgu-4s0&list=UUPI0IsXyqiibAfF3QAdzSbg