Reinhart's SVO shorties exhaust system vs. Cobra exhaust manifold exhaust system

[studio460]

Okay, lemme just get this straight . . .

After months of internal debate, I'm finally ready for headers. I would love the Kooks, but the install cost I understand is very high. Now, the Reinhart "Spring Sale" $900 exhaust kit is for the ceramic-coated Cobra exhaust manifolds and NOT for the SVO shorties exhaust system?

I was interested in the SVO shortie exhaust system, for the same reason, I think, that TAF originally chose the SVO shorties over the Cobra exhaust manifold route--purely cosmetics, i.e., they LOOK like headers, right? And the Cobra exhaust mainifold, well, looks like an exhaust manifold, and the fact that the Cobra manifold looks more "unmodified," "more factory," since it's basically a cast iron manifold, yes?

Are there any other pros and cons of the SVO shorties vs. the Cobra exhaust manifolds that I'm missing here? Doesn't the Cobra manifold weigh more than the SVO shorties?

These are what I think are the facts--please confirm/deny at will . . .

1. Cobra exhaust manifolds are cast iron. True or false?
2. Cobra exhaust manifolds are heavier than the SVO shorties. True or false?
3. Cobra exhaust manifolds are NOT internally ported and polished, simply "port-matched" (which simply means that the orifices on the manifold are the same size and shape as the orifices they're mounting to) True or false?
4. Both system's X-pipe and extension pipes are 2.5-inch diameter. True or false?
5. The SVO shorties offer only slighty improved performance numbers over the Cobra exhaust manifolds. True or false?
6. The brand of the high flow cats of either system have not been stated. True or false?
7. The the high flow cats of either system do not have a CARB number. True or false?
8. The only benefit of the Cobra manifold over the SVOs is its "factory look" to better preserve warranty claims. True or false?
9. The primary benefit of the SVOs over the Cobra manifold is its "header look." True or false?
10. The Reinhart SVO shorties exhaust system also includes everything you need except mufflers. True or false?
11. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system is NOT on sale for $900, and are more expensive. True or false?
12. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system with high flow cats probably WOULD pass a California emmissions test when new. True or false?
13. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system with high flow cats would probably NOT pass a California emmissions test after 2-5 years. True or false?

Thanks for any and all input!

[SergntMac]

Okay, lemme just get this straight . . .
1. Cobra exhaust manifolds are cast iron. True or false?
2. Cobra exhaust manifolds are heavier than the SVO shorties. True or false?
3. Cobra exhaust manifolds are NOT internally ported and polished, simply "port-matched" (which simply means that the orifices on the manifold are the same size and shape as the orifices they're mounting to) True or false?
4. Both system's X-pipe and extension pipes are 2.5-inch diameter. True or false?
5. The SVO shorties offer only slighty improved performance numbers over the Cobra exhaust manifolds. True or false?
6. The brand of the high flow cats of either system have not been stated. True or false?
7. The the high flow cats of either system do not have a CARB number. True or false?
8. The only benefit of the Cobra manifold over the SVOs is its "factory look" to better preserve warranty claims. True or false?
9. The primary benefit of the SVOs over the Cobra manifold is its "header look." True or false?
10. The Reinhart SVO shorties exhaust system also includes everything you need except mufflers. True or false?
11. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system is NOT on sale for $900, and are more expensive. True or false?
12. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system with high flow cats probably WOULD pass a California emmissions test when new. True or false?
13. The Reinhart ceramic-coated SVO shorties exhaust system with high flow cats would probably NOT pass a California emmissions test after 2-5 years. True or false?

Thanks for any and all input!

1) True
2) Probably, why?
3) Ummm...Ask Dennis. Mine were on the car before this point was debated, and I haven't seen proof that they are not internally polished. Port matched, yes.
4) Yes, and no. X pipe is 2.5" OD, extension pipes on Reinhart kit neck down to 2.0" OD to fit OEM mufflers, but this can be upgraded to 2.5" OD.
5) Never saw that proven, but I note that once the Cobra system developed 30 RWHP and 20 RWTQ on my MM, Dennis discontinued offering the shorties.
6) False. Bassani.
7) No CARB number that I recall.
8) "Only?" What about the increase in performance?
9) "Pirmary?" Well, I guess. I do not recall any "before/after" performance testing that isolated SVO header performance, but I am sure they perform well for their cost. I just can't say how much, it was never measured. Moreover, they had better look like headers, because that's what they are.
10) Dennis may have offered an SVO shorty header kit, but I don't recall that. Once he offered the Cobra kit sometime around Sept. '03, he stopped selling the SVO shorties.
11) Not sure on this, I would have to page through the posts to answer for sure, but I believe there is a "group buy" thingy going on right now. If the Cobra kit IS on sale for 900 bucks, that's a sweet deal for a complete exhaust system that's proven to deliver good bang for the buck. Call Dennis?
12) This probably relies more on a good tune than the exhaust system, but I would say yes, it will pass.
13) Objection your Honor, calls for speculation by the witness.

You're welcome.

Did I pass?

Are you scoring on a curve?

[darebren]

there was no comparison for me. didn't you always draw cars as a kid with huge long headers? I never drew any with ported polished manifolds, no dig against them, and for the cost best bang for buck all around, but I thought I only had one chance to do go for the gusto when deciding what to do..

[TAF]

I highly recommend the shorties over the manifolds. I think Dennis will still sell them (the SVO shorties) to you...if not, let me know...I know where you can get them. :up:

[Ross]

[QUOTE=NBC Shooter]I was interested in the SVO shortie exhaust system, for the same reason, I think, that TAF originally chose the SVO shorties over the Cobra exhaust manifold route--purely cosmetics, i.e., they LOOK like headers, right?


Todd can correct me on this, but didn't he have the shorties BEFORE Dennis came out with the ported Cobra system?

[BruteForce]

go for the gusto

I second that commotion :burnout:

[TAF]

[QUOTE=NBC Shooter]I was interested in the SVO shortie exhaust system, for the same reason, I think, that TAF originally chose the SVO shorties over the Cobra exhaust manifold route--purely cosmetics, i.e., they LOOK like headers, right?


Todd can correct me on this, but didn't he have the shorties BEFORE Dennis came out with the ported Cobra system?Well...actually no, Ross. The "jet-coated" (outside only) and not ported or polished manifolds were available. But, other than just looking like shinier OEMs (cause there are NO CHANGES to the ports) I decided to go with the shorties.
From what I've seen in before/after dynos on N/A cars...if you go with the manifolds...the REAL gains come from the hi-flow cats and freeing up with 2.5" all the way back to the mufflers with the X-pipe.

Here are the before/after dyno numbers when I did the shorties. It is even broken down to show the increase in RWHP & RWTQ with just the headers, hi-flos & X-pipe vs. freeing up the rest of the "plumbing" to the Magnaflow mufflers.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5946&highlight=atlanta

[dailydriver]

Will either os these manifolds bolt directly to the rest of the stock system(H pipe, cats, mufflers)?

[SergntMac]

Here are the before/after dyno numbers when I did the shorties. It is even broken down to show the increase in RWHP & RWTQ with just the headers, hi-flos & X-pipe vs. freeing up the rest of the "plumbing" to the Magnaflow mufflers.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5946&highlight=atlanta
My apologies to TAF here, his independent testing of the shorty headers, and their performance slipped my mind while posting my reply.

[cyclone03]

Shooter,
My guess on the CA emmissions testing would be ANY header would flag the visual portion of the CA test.
A coated stock manifold would be an easier sell to the test station.

"No I just coated them so they LOOK better".

I think the cats would still perform in 4-5 years as well then as now.

[FordNut]

Will either os these manifolds bolt directly to the rest of the stock system(H pipe, cats, mufflers)?
No. The only system that will bolt up to the OEM stuff is the Borla. It bolts on to the flanges behind the cats, leaving the OEM manifolds and cats in place. No positng of dyno stats on this system have been posted.

Replacing the OEM manifolds with the SVO shorties, Ceramic coated Cobra manifolds, or Kooks system replaces everything from the heads to the muffler inlets and can be bolted on. Replacing the mufflers will require welding.

Put on the shorties or manifolds and you'll get a lot of "that's nice", put on the long tubes and it's more ooh, ahh, sweeet, etc.

[RF Overlord]

OK. The mod program for the SR-71 has been on hold, as I was waiting, hoping, PRAYING that Ford would build the fabled 2005.5 S/C version. Alas. So now I have no choice but to continue.

I have a couple questions, as there seem to be 3 "headers" being talked about, the Cobra, the SVO, and the Kook's...I understand the Kook's is a "traditional" long-tube header and that it makes most of it's performance gains in the higher RPMs, correct? Even thought that total gain may be higher than the other choices, I would have to push the car harder to realise it, in addition to the cost and installation factors. So that leaves me with the Cobra, as Dennis no longer recommends the SVO, right?

See, I'm not interested in making the ultimate in power, if it all comes in only at higher RPMs...I want to kind of fill in the lower end, more than raise the higher end...so my actual question is: would I then be better off with the Cobra's and Dennis's high-flow cats, leaving the rest of the exhaust system stock?

[FordNut]

I understand the Kook's is a "traditional" long-tube header and that it makes most of it's performance gains in the higher RPMs, correct?
Not true. Most Kooks cars have a very wide, flat torque curve. Mine makes 240 ft-lb at 1500 rpm and 309 ft-lb at 4100 rpm.

The reason most people have the impression that long tube headers kill low rpm torque is that traditionally hot rodders have employed the bigger is better approach so the header manufacturers oblige them with huge primary tubes. The large diameter primary tubes do kill low rpm torque to gain a narrow hp peak. The Kooks headers most of us are using are 1-5/8 primaries. A very few are using 1-7/8 primaries but that is with other power adders such as nitrous or blowers.

The optimal design length for header primary tubes to make good low rpm power is about 34". The Kooks are not equal length, but the shortest I measured was about 16" and the longest about 26" or so. The other options do not even have primary tubes or collectors, they just dump the exhaust into a chamber.

Edit: There really isn't much difference in the power numbers on the dyno between the different systems. I've had overlays of dyno pulls from several of the different exhaust system configurations and they all make good power.

Edit: Just realized this thread is in DR's forum, Moderators feel free to delete my comments about competitor's product. Sorry...

[SergntMac]

This feels more like a vendor war now, and I don't like vendor wars.

Who ever builds good stuff for the MM, is a good vendor to me. Because I type the word "Dennis" often here, I am only tracking who has done what. Let's leave it there, K?

If you want maximum performance from your MM, buy Kook's headers, and connect them to Magnaflow mufflers, and Wes Chain tips. Noise be damned, this is the best performing set up, period. Real headers too, and as "full length" as they come today. If you believe you own a real "street animal," Kook's headers are for you.

If you want to improve over OEM performance, but need to stay undercover about it, both in performance and sound, and for warranty/CARB/wifey/loud concerns, get the DR Cobra kit. You can get performance, and keep your OEM mufflers and tips. Or, change mufflers and tips too, which won't matter for performance, just for sound.

If you want that same improvement over OEM performance, but want everyone to see your headers, and don't have any warranty/CARB/Wifey/loud concerns, get the "shorty" headers from anyone, they are real headers too. Likewise, add Magnaflows and Wes Chain tips for louder, bolder and bad.

Are we still talking about performance and exhaust systems?

[89lxbill]

It is a common misconception that long tubes kill low end torque. Just the opposite is true. In last months MM&FF they tested long tube header vs equal length shorty vs standard shorty headers on a 347 and the long tubes actually had slightly less peak hp#s, but as much as 20+ ft lbs more torque under the curve at lower rpms. The peaks were almost identical.

[FordNut]

It is a common misconception that long tubes kill low end torque. Just the opposite is true. In last months MM&FF they tested long tube header vs equal length shorty vs standard shorty headers on a 347 and the long tubes actually had slightly less peak hp#s, but as much as 20+ ft lbs more torque under the curve at lower rpms. The peaks were almost identical.
Exactly what my dyno graphs indicated.

[merc]

I don’t know of anyone online that has dyno comparisons between the SVO shorty high flow headers and Cobra Manifolds. Although Mac has some good data, I believe that his number differs from Non-Supercharged Marauders. After six months of investigating I choose the Cobra manifold kit that Dennis sells. My reason was based on the timing of my transmission repair and performance versus dollars. The Kook headers are clearly the performance winner, but that criteria was not the only factor.
I hope to have my dyno numbers posted once my transmission is repaired.

[Marauderjack]

I contacted Dennis and he says the manifolds flow better than the shortys??

I also plan to get Dennis' exhaust soon......Getting ready for the S/C...someday!!?? :confused: ;)

Marauderjack :D

[MERCMAN]

Dennis



2003 Blue Marauder 12.36 seconds 450 RWHP.

PI 3000 Stall, Metal Matrix Drive Shaft, 4:30 gears with stud girdle, Denso IT 22's 180 Stat, RPC/Fordchip tuning, Vortech S Trim 10 PSI/with after cooler, SVO Shorty high flow cats with X pipe, Rear sway bar, Sylvania headlight upgrade, Infinity speaker upgrade, Viper Alarm with auto start, power sunroof. parachute optional.

1996 Lincoln Mark 8
550 RWHP

2002 GT 363RWHP
Bullit intake custom after cooler 4:10 Mac stud Girdle, 10 PSI Vortech
42 pound Inj,Anderson Ford Power Pipe 90 MM LM, RPC/SCT Tuning. Drive with the best

This is Dennis's sig. He has the shortys. Good enough for me(which is one of the reasons I went with the shortys) The other reason is because I never had headers before and they look PIMP:up:

[Marauderjack]

Hmmmmmm??????? :confused: :cool: :o

[studio460]

Thanks for everyone's input on the subject! Special thanks to Sarge for his detailed point-by-point response--an "A+" in my book, Sarge. TAF, thanks for your comparison view as well!