Going Turbo LS or Turbo 4v stock motor.....info inside.

[96gt4.6]

Hi! As many of you know, I'm new to the Forum and Marauder scene. However, I'm not new to hotrodding or modifications. I'm a technician at the Blue Oval dealer by trade and absolutely love my hobby building and racing cars.

A few of you might know me from my last project, a Turbocharged '97 Crown Vic with a 6.0L Chevy motor/trans:

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2597468

I've since acquired a Marauder.....and am contemplating doing the same swap as my Vic with this one. Now, many of you are screaming.....WHY not turbo the stock 4v motor??? Well, simply put, I made nearly 600 rear wheel HP from a $600 salvage yard engine with the LS setup, which is fairly common, and drove it for 2 years that way before selling it.

I had posted the question of how much can a stock 4v Marauder engine handle, and it seems the concensus was around 500 rear wheel hp is on borrowed time.

But, I kind of had a quell with that. I have several friends who race with me, and one of them has a stock 2v 5.4L Lightning running north of 600 rear wheel hp with a Kenne Bell/supporting mods, for 6 years running now. Being a Ford tech, I'm well aware the lightning motor is a stock 5.4L with different pistons, it's not forged like it's Cobra counterpart is.....

So, knowing this, in all honesty, if this stock motor can make 600 RWHP......I too believe I'm better off keeping it and going all Blue Oval on this build, but I need some expert opinions and some with experience in boosting the stock 4v 4.6L.

I'm not interested in swapping it for a Cobra motor, or putting much of any money into the stock Marauder engine, as the cost to make the Ford setup viable vs. the LS isn't negotiable here simply due to the fact I can get an LS in here on the cheap and offset most of the costs simply by selling the stock Marauder engine.

So, any help is appreciated in making my decision before I begin this adventure. Also, I'd greatly appreciate if anyone would share what else needs to be upgraded to get around 600 rear wheel HP, as far as trans/fuel system. How much can the 4R70W take? What needs to be upgraded in it to hold?

I'm all about keeping it Ford, if it's close to cost effective vs. the GM motor :). And, I've done the body on this Marauder Justice with a fully redone professional paint job before I begin:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150420_123050_zpsgwstd5ly.jp g

[Zack]

I could never believe why you sold that other car. It was AWESOME.

Anyway, here is my turbo build thread:

http://www.thechicagogarage.com/forum/marauder-tech/126094-marauder-turbo-project-thread.html
Here is Seneca's

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93530

A stock 4R70w with a J-mod starts to act funny around 550rwhp.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you for that Zack, I will look though your build thread in full when I get some sit down time. I'm seriously contemplating the Ford powertrain at this point.....but want to make sure I get the most information I can about what they can handle and what needs to be addressed before I make the decision.

The Vic, I got a cash offer on, and well...money talks! Now that I've procured a Marauder, I'm very excited! Just not sure which way I'm going at this point.....

[MOTOWN]

If you want to run a Turbo on the stock 4 valve your going to want to stay at or below 450rwhp , otherwise a forged 4.6l is in order for higher boost.

[96gt4.6]

I see......

So, here's my question, on the Lightning pickups. I have a friend that has a '00 with a stock short block with a Kenne Bell 2.3L @ 14 psi. The truck is a religious bracket racing pickup, and has been for the last 6+ years.

Truck traps 115-117 mph, which puts it squarely in the 600+ RWHP range.

Lightning pickups are a production 2v 5.4L motor less dished pistons, they are not forged or anything special unlike their Cobra counterparts. How.....do they hold up to more HP than the 4v 4.6L in this case? It's not uncommon for those lightning guys to run stock shortblocks in this power range, so I'm told?

Not trying to start a war, just trying to get a good comprehension on what path this project will follow.

[MOTOWN]

I see......

So, here's my question, on the Lightning pickups. I have a friend that has a '00 with a stock short block with a Kenne Bell 2.3L @ 14 psi. The truck is a religious bracket racing pickup, and has been for the last 6+ years.

Truck traps 115-117 mph, which puts it squarely in the 600+ RWHP range.

Lightning pickups are a production 2v 5.4L motor less dished pistons, they are not forged or anything special unlike their Cobra counterparts. How.....do they hold up to more HP than the 4v 4.6L in this case? It's not uncommon for those lightning guys to run stock shortblocks in this power range, so I'm told?

Not trying to start a war, just trying to get a good comprehension on what path this project will follow.

Very familiar with the 2nd gen Lightnings , as you said they have 5.4L 2 valve motors , which are more cubic inches , a mod motor , but different from a 4.6L , I've never seen one pushing 600 to the wheels on a stock motor (not saying it doesn't exist) most guys try to stay around 450-550 on the stock internals , some window the blocks , some don't , purely luck of the draw on a stock motor.

[96gt4.6]

I see....

As much as I want to stay blue oval with this one.....I just don't see it in my future with these details......

I wish the 4v stuff wasn't so expensive, i'd love to mess with a turbo 4v!

[Lowndex]

If I may ask, how $ did the re-paint cost?

[Badass_forever]

Since when did 600rwhp get you 113mph? 600whp is more like 130mph

Also, I don't believe for a second that a stock marauder motor will make 600whp and last.

Lastly, why are you throwing a turbo on a 6.0L? the 5.3L is where the turbo bang for the buck is. I Have 4 different friends running 5.3L making over 700whp with a bone stock 5.3L and supporting mods.

Buddie has a 6.0L in a 2005 RX8 with c6z06 heads, mild cam and exhaust. makes 582rwhp. Nasty nasty car.

if you have any questions pm me.

[96gt4.6]

My fastest pass in the Vic was 123 mph, 14 psi, 4200 lbs race weight.

MPH/weight would put it around 600 RWHP, however I did not ever have it on the rollers to verify that.

This was also a bone stock 6.0L, stock cam, stock everything except valve springs (PRC Duals).

It seems as if my question has been fully answered, and that is, the Ford engine would not be a good option for my goals.

[96gt4.6]

Lowndex, the paint job was cost of supplies only, ~$600

[stevengerard]

Lowndex, the paint job was cost of supplies only, ~$600

I'm headed to Kansas!!!:eek:

[Bad_S55]

Now I thought the Lightnings were forged cranks Manley H-beams, & dished pistons? Forged internals matter; I've heard of the stock, non-forged rods snapping at the 450-500 horse mark. I don't think you can get super high with a stock motor before things start dying. Here's what happens: http://youtu.be/NIHUQQbjoPU

What you could do is get a set of 4.6 Manley rods from an '03-'04 Cobra off ebay. I've seen those for around $600, but that's for a used set, and I don't if you should really trust used rods. I haven't tried it yet so I can't tell ya!

[96gt4.6]

Back when we had our SVT training classes online, the Lightning and Cobra engines were detailed pretty well, and I'm 99% sure it was clearly stated that they were production motors with dished pistons for lower compression.

Now the Cobra, yes, all forged.

haha, and on the paint cost, it helps when you work at a dealer and supplies are cheap, as well as having friends that can paint and access to a paint booth.

[Bad_S55]

Did a quick search, and they did have forged cranks. You can still get them from Ford (PN M-6303-M54) I was wrong about the rods, my bad.

[Badass_forever]

Back when we had our SVT training classes online, the Lightning and Cobra engines were detailed pretty well, and I'm 99% sure it was clearly stated that they were production motors with dished pistons for lower compression.

Now the Cobra, yes, all forged.

haha, and on the paint cost, it helps when you work at a dealer and supplies are cheap, as well as having friends that can paint and access to a paint booth.

cobras are still only good for 650rwhp. once you do the cooling mod you have a lot less to worry about, that being said I have seen a few cooked motors that were bone stock. all depends what day/shift put them together.

[MOTOWN]

cobras are still only good for 650rwhp. once you do the cooling mod you have a lot less to worry about, that being said I have seen a few cooked motors that were bone stock. all depends what day/shift put them together.

You are full of misinformation! Most every other Cobra owner and their brother is making well over 650rwhp on a Whipple , or Turbo setup.

[justbob]

You are full of misinformation! Most every other Cobra owner and their brother is making well over 650rwhp on a Whipple , or Turbo setup.


Agreed.


Builder Of Badassery

[Merrill]

You can't say you are a blue oval guy and and even consider putting an LS motor in a MM. Spin it all you want Ford people don't do that. Build a camaro or something.

[Badass_forever]

You are full of misinformation! Most every other Cobra owner and their brother is making well over 650rwhp on a Whipple , or Turbo setup.

maybe, but mine didn't last very long with that kind of power... and its a touchy subject for me and my failed $600 mmr oil pump.

[MOTOWN]

maybe, but mine didn't last very long with that kind of power... and its a touchy subject for me and my failed $600 mmr oil pump.

If i was going to go with Billet oil pump gears i would use Melling , or TSS , MMR has too many failures with their billet oil pump gears , should have done your homework MMRs gears have a high failure rate , and thats a well known fact.

[96gt4.6]

Did a quick search, and they did have forged cranks. You can still get them from Ford (PN M-6303-M54) I was wrong about the rods, my bad.

It's all good, I was wrong on the crank and never knew that :).

Yes, I I'm aware putting a Chevy in a Ford......makes me a traitor and not true to the oval....but it's all about the $$/hp, as I'm not rich either.

IF the price of the Cobra powertrain, OR the components to make this unit strong enough to take what I'm wanting to do, vs. the alternative, were different, than I most certainly would be hanging a hair dryer from this motor......

But, on the flip side, I never hack these builds together, every one has been clean, and 'looks factory' I've been told at car shows, if that helps soften the matter any....

[MMBLUE]

Very interesting thread and thank you for you candidness not cockiness of what you are trying to do. We recently had a new member come on here and needless to say, his approach was not welcomed.

So... You are struggling with the issue GM or blue oval. Why not try something WAY off the wall and go with an old skool 302, 289, 351C, or 390. You could prolly pick up something like that on the cheap from someone in desperation. Put a new or old skool hair dryer or supercharger on it :confused: Now that would be a first here. I've seen some pretty pumped up 80's 5.0 HO motors with turbo and with powerdyne S/C's put some pretty hefty numbers down.

[Zack]

The 4.6 DOHC leaves very little room for a turbo and piping.
Put the LSx in it.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you guys for the warm welcome as well! I'm a car lover, and in all honesty I saved this Marauder from the crusher. I bought it with a supposedly 'bad' motor (previous owner did not want to spend $$ looking into it) and it turned out to be o.k. still. Coupled with the body issues it had, she was on the whole sale lot and headed to the bone yard.

Well, you see the only reason i'm doing the Turbo GEN 3 Chevy, is because it's very easy to make HP with a stock $600 Salvage motor. This would be my 4th turbo LS Chevy, and all have made over 550 RWHP on stock motors. To even get that kind of power out of an older Windsor, it would take some serious $$. And, in all honesty, that's the ONLY issue here..... Believe me, i'm a Ford guy at heart, but i'm also not wanting to spend a lot of $$ just to make the same HP as I can with an LS motor.

I would ABSOLUTELY love to keep the 4v in here, no doudt. But, my previous '97 Turbo Crown Vic build proved to be a great daily driver and made decent power, and was very cheap powertrain and installation wise.

If only the Coyote 5.0L was less expensive! I'd love to get one of those in here and turbo it!

[Bad_S55]

I'm curious, what about going 5.4, but with 2V heads instead of 4? I've seen some wicked SOHC motors with tons of boost.

[96gt4.6]

^ The issue I would have there is cost. Getting an intake to clear the stock hood, as far as I'm aware would be aftermarket, that and including the cost of getting everything functional would still outweigh the cost of going LS (at least gauging off of my previous build). The mounts to set an LS in there run $130, and the car (ls1) intake is around $100. It's ridiculously cheap.

If I could get a 2v 5.4L in there, I'm assuming they would suffer from not being able to take much HP in stock form as well, as they have weak rods (in comparison to the Cobra or LS motors). Seems like most stock Modular's, barring S/C Cobra 4v's and Coyote 5.0L, are limited to around 500 RWHP.

Love the outpouring of ideas guys, thank you!

[96gt4.6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHznW9ORGNM

Here's a video during the build process on my Vic. As you can see, they fit rather easily, and look stock.

[96gt4.6]

This video is up and running:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_GPP6S0tM8

And this video is driving, demonstrating how stock I've kept the build as far as body/integration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlRtXfOY_o

[96gt4.6]

Another underhood video once fabrication was complete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA4_nimv50s

And, my personal favorite, one of the many on the street videos. This one was on 6psi/pump gas. Ran high 12's in this trim. Stock 2005 Chevy 2500 Pickup LQ4 6.0L engine ($600 Salvage with 150k on the odometer, On3Performance 76MM Turbo ($400 Ebay), stock cam, stock Chevy 2500 Pickup 4L80E stall converter (car had a Chevy 4l80E trans as well).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OhtVCBeVxw

Here's my Mustang producing 550 RWHP with a stock 5.3L and Master Power 70mm turbo. The 5.3L was stock less an LS6 Camshaft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43D1n5KVkIY

And my most recent build, my Turbo '79 Malibu with a stock 2007 2500 Chevy Pickup 6.0L:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFReVd3aAdA

At the Strip on the Malibu, going 11.0@123 mph on 9psi/pump gas 91 on 13 degrees timing, again, these are all stock salvage yard motors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFz-loW1uY

IF ONLY it wasn't so expensive to use the Ford powertrain.....I want to dabble in Modular turbo Ford's, but I don't want to pay the high price of admission :)

[Badass_forever]

If i was going to go with Billet oil pump gears i would use Melling , or TSS , MMR has too many failures with their billet oil pump gears , should have done your homework MMRs gears have a high failure rate , and thats a well known fact.

after a few post on svt performance. I would like to say I was one of the "first" group of people that had these problems. This was a lot of years back.. was my first build.

[lifespeed]

Yes, I I'm aware putting a Chevy in a Ford......makes me a traitor and not true to the oval....but it's all about the $$/hp, as I'm not rich either.

IF the price of the Cobra powertrain, OR the components to make this unit strong enough to take what I'm wanting to do, vs. the alternative, were different, than I most certainly would be hanging a hair dryer from this motor......

I would think there is a huge cost simply in swapping to a different brand engine, probably more than enough to cover the cost of 4.6L forged internals.

[96gt4.6]

One would think so, however it's not nearly as bad as you would think.

Plus, selling the existing 4.6L 4V for $1500-2k (current salvage value) offsets most of it.

The stock LS truck pan clears good, car intake clears stock hood, 4L80E trans fits with minimal cross member modification, stock driveshaft is reused albeit shortened, and the stock fuel system is used with small modifications. Now, if cost of labor is a factor, most certainly, going with the existing powertrain, would be much cheaper.

However, I am capable of all the work with my background and training, so that helps sway the decision in my instance. If not for the cirumstances/cost, this car would be Ford 100% indeed.

[blkZooM]

It's just a brand Ford doesn't care for you throw the Chevy motor and turbo in it, you have done it before so it's the easier route

[Joe Walsh]

I'm a dyed-FordBlue-in-the-wool guy and I hate to see Chevy engines in Fords.
But....if cost is your driving factor in this decision. ..
It's a no brainer....buy a cheap LS motor.

Mod motors are:
Externally HUGE
Internally puny
Expensive
Complex
Fragile (unless it's a Cobra or Coyote)
did I mention that you have to buy 4 cams!?

I'd have a 427W SBF in my Marauder if I didn't have emissions to deal with....
and if I hadn't wasted $ 7,000+ on my now broken 5.0 big bore mod motor.

:(

But....I could never bring myself to put a GM engine in anything that I own....even it was free.

[Marauderjack]

Put the GM motor in......NEVER open the hood or tell anyone about it......claim it's an "Ecoboost V-6" ....... Problem solved!!:eek::D:beer::burnout:

[96gt4.6]

Well I believe it's settled then, but I wanted to get some solid input from guys that have played with this powertrain more than I before I got too rash on a decision. On my Vic, it was an easy decision as the stock 2v was cooked due to grandma running down the interstate after the plastic intake ruptured and lost all the coolant.

This one, being a running/driving vehicle, not so easy to decide. However, as i've stated, i'm not willing to dump double the $$ into the 4V just to run the same as a salvage LS motor can, just to keep it all blue oval.

Phase 1 complete, got her all finished up body wise. Here's a few shots.




And the 'after' pics:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121650_zpsndzqbyrl.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121607_zpsaqgexwjy.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121600_zps38pk2mvh.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121553_zpsqhlgzuur.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121553_zpsqhlgzuur.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121532_zpsgkg5p6da.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121523_zpsnz32dnn0.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/20150425_121513_zpsy69pschh.jp g

Going to have about a 2 months hiatus while I finish gathering my smalls list for the LS swap, then it's time to get down with gettin' down!

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

That's a nice Marauder to hack up for an LS swap. Good luck and can't wait to see the finished results.

[96gt4.6]

Pre body work pics:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150319_122402_zpsk14jmbiq.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150319_122410_zpsj7nz2kwc.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150319_122418_zpsgz4gqcqz.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150319_122443_zpsq5wxctrv.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150319_122459_zpsiz3m5bl1.jp g

On my trailer the day I saved her from going to the salvageyard:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150313_160150_zpsj9gbnzj3.jp g

She may not live on all Blue Oval powered, but the point is, she lives on. Car was destined to be sold to salvage until I came in the picture.

[96gt4.6]

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter_zpsp 7yzkuqr.jpg
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter4_zps yreto05f.jpg
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter3_zps 54mknok4.jpg
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter2_zps xrcjkvbw.jpg

[NTHE10s]

Good pick! LS is not only least expensive but can handle a lot more power. Are you going to upgrade any parts in the LS motor? rod, pistons, etc.
Are you going to keep all the accessories? AC, power steering

[Zack]

Looks amazing without the side trim.

[96gt4.6]

Good pick! LS is not only least expensive but can handle a lot more power. Are you going to upgrade any parts in the LS motor? rod, pistons, etc.
Are you going to keep all the accessories? AC, power steering

As far as the LS motor I do not have any intentions to go into it whatsoever at this time. My last setup in my '97 Crown Vic, was a stock Cathedral Port LQ4 6.0L truck engine. I was able to obtain a 123 MPH trap speed, on 14 psi 50/50 91 octane/VP110, and 10 degrees ignition lead time. Our unavailability of E85 around here, really limits the potential on boost unfortunately, that and I try to not push them too hard honestly. The car will probably end up somewhere in the 11's with a converter hopefully, as was my old Vic.

As far as keeping everything functional, yes, that is a NECESSITY on a cross breed by my standards. I had posted some video's a few pages back of my vic, including an in cab video demonstrating the stock cruise, gauges, everything worked. As far as A/C, the only thing left on the Vic was hooking up the low/high side pressure switches to the Ford body/HVAC unit, and fabricating the refrigerant hoses. I'm hoping, to finally finish this one out as I never took that final step on the Vic simply because I was having too much fun with it! haha.

The stock shifter is retained, and I use a 4L80E trans so the cars are perfectly driveable after the swap.

I have high hopes for this 'ole girl, and I promise everyone reading this, as was my Vic, this swap will not be hacked! Here's the underhood of the Vic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA4_nimv50s

Thank you guys for your support and comments on this project! I really appreciate the help and different point of views!

Indeed, I chose to shave the side mouldings for the clean look, so far, i'm liking it as well!

[rauder88]

Now I want to swap an LS into a vic. I will be watching. Good luck.

[345HP87SSAC]

Keep it up and do the LS swap. I'd love to meet up some time. Surprised you have not sold the stock 4V yet.

[8UWITH6]

Looks amazing without the side trim.

Good eye. Looks killer. Hate to admit I missed that.

[96gt4.6]

Keep it up and do the LS swap. I'd love to meet up some time. Surprised you have not sold the stock 4V yet.

I have had a few people express interest and want to put a deposit down on it, but refused. I figure at this point, it's best if I get the motor out and crated up, then pursue selling it at that time, as it will literally be ready to go. I had originally advertised it now, with the thought process being that someone could hear it run and drive it before I pulled it, however it seems as if most buyers want to get ahold of it immediately vs. waiting. Motor seems pretty solid, carries good oil PSI and sounds great.

Indeed, as it's been said, in all honesty I hate removing the Ford powertrain.....as it truly degrade the car overall as far as potential future buyers, and de values a very rare and nice car. But, that's just a side effect of customization. If only the Ford stuff wasn't so expensive to make HP, and I wasn't so well versed with this swap and have the proper tuning tools/know how in the matter, the outcome would most certainly be different here.

Still looking forward to keeping this pretty lady going though. The Marauder is a very nice car and was well done by Ford. Looks sporty and turns heads, something my plain white Vic never did until the turbo spooled!

[LOWBUCKMM]

I have a turbo in a bone stock marauder motor. 446hp 493tq at the wheels and I can turn it up more but, it's a waiting game on when it goes boom. But I do have a 5.0 stroker short block to put in but I want to see how long the stock motor holds.

Injoy the marauder with the stock motor for awhile. Or turbo the stock motor and use the 450rwhp for however long it holds.

Just my 2cents

[96gt4.6]

I have a turbo in a bone stock marauder motor. 446hp 493tq at the wheels and I can turn it up more but, it's a waiting game on when it goes boom. But I do have a 5.0 stroker short block to put in but I want to see how long the stock motor holds.

Injoy the marauder with the stock motor for awhile. Or turbo the stock motor and use the 450rwhp for however long it holds.

Just my 2cents


I feel ya!

Being quite honest though.....there really is nothing to enjoy about the stock setup.....coming from the Vic...lol. Going from an 11 sec car to a 15 sec car is a huge jump.

The issue I have with going turbo on the stock motor, is even at 450 rwhp I won't be satisfied, not coming from my previous setup. Going that route, I would basically fab a turbo kit and drop the $$ into the stock setup that I would end up losing, not to mention most likely destroying the stock motor which would net me around $1500 as it sits now, a sizable credit going towards (and in all honesty paying for nearly 1/2 of the LS swap) the LS swap.

My current game plan is to finish procuring the necessary parts for my LS swap while I drive the Marauder for a bit. I have the motor/trans already, and really all that's left are some smalls.

Current ETA before she undergoes surgery is about 2 months give/take.

This was on 10 psi, pump gas, and is pretty much an unlimited rolling burnout until I lift, from a 30ish MPH roll. I would estimate based on my trap speed of 117 on 10 psi, in the 4200 lb Vic, that would be north of 550 RWHP give or take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciDa97gFfc

[justbob]

You should at minimum record each cylinders compression to help the sale if taken out.


Builder Of Badassery

[stevengerard]

the good news is the original motor has no "matching numbers" value to it so if you do sell it someone can buy a replacement engine. Maybe not easily but its a lot more doable than finding the original 440 for a '70 Cuda.

[Badass_forever]

I have a turbo in a bone stock marauder motor. 446hp 493tq at the wheels and I can turn it up more but, it's a waiting game on when it goes boom. But I do have a 5.0 stroker short block to put in but I want to see how long the stock motor holds.

Injoy the marauder with the stock motor for awhile. Or turbo the stock motor and use the 450rwhp for however long it holds.

Just my 2cents

never really understood why people stroke boosted cars.. it is literally the opposite of what you are trying to do. :cool:

[LOWBUCKMM]

never really understood why people stroke boosted cars.. it is literally the opposite of what you are trying to do. :cool:

Cause it my car my money. And I can do what I want. Plus the forged stroker crank was cheaper then a cobra forged one.

[BigM460]

What electronics do you run the car on?

Just wondered if you're using factory GM or aftermarket and what's involved?

Thought about doing something like this with my 68 Merc. Have been told it's an easy 500 n/a hp with some heads that run about 1200 bucks. If you're doing everything for around $3000, and north of 500hp, that's sweet!

[Badass_forever]

What electronics do you run the car on?

Just wondered if you're using factory GM or aftermarket and what's involved?

Thought about doing something like this with my 68 Merc. Have been told it's an easy 500 n/a hp with some heads that run about 1200 bucks. If you're doing everything for around $3000, and north of 500hp, that's sweet!

We use pickup truck ECU's, we normally get the motors out of trucks. there is a oper source program called HP tuners. They flash the factory ECU and give you complete control. works amazing. just did a 2012 ss camaro with a cam and longtubes, made 440whp.

[96gt4.6]

^ What this guy said. The stock GM ECU combined with the HP Tuners program, you can do anything you want in the ECU.

The costs are correct in my instance. If you can wire, tune and fabricate, it's very very cheap HP. You are correct, north of 500 N/A HP is very easily obtainable with an LS. Add boost, and on pump gas 91 octane, 600-700 flywheel HP with just a good intercooler and no meth injection is extremely reliable.

Before I went turbo on my Malibu, I put down north of 400 RWHP through a loose converter, TH400 and 12 bolt rear. This was a heads/cam 6.0L, with a carb setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQK9b_Nyw00

Same car, but turbocharged here. There is nothing like that turbo sing though....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFReVd3aAdA

Both of those combo's are nothing more than a salvage yard motor. The Heads/Cam N/A setup I shifted at 7100, no issues.

[BigM460]

So what's an engine and transmission and ecu together go for? Any certain things to look for or stay away from?
Still not sure I could actually put a chevy in my Merc, but..........

An F150 5.0 would be nice!

[Badass_forever]

So what's an engine and transmission and ecu together go for? Any certain things to look for or stay away from?
Still not sure I could actually put a chevy in my Merc, but..........

i get them for 300-500$ then flip them for $800ish

[BigM460]

i get them for 300-500$ then flip them for $800ish

Really?! Wow that's a bargain.

[Badass_forever]

Really?! Wow that's a bargain.

yeah, there is a huge car community where i live, and most if it is young guys that know what this combo can do.

my good buddy mike has a 88mm on a 5.3 with only an injector up grade, he just went 10.12 at 142 in a grand national. not only that, he races the thing every weekend in Detroit for money.

to top it all off, its one of the most hacked P.O.S i've ever seen, tuned in his basement with HP tuners with a wiring harness he built, it runs amazing and is totally street able.

[96gt4.6]

Badass is correct. For a 5.3L I've never paid more than $5-700 around here for a complete pullout with wiring/ecu/accessories. It's ridiculously cheap power.....and the stock motors can take a beating. None of my builds have had anything done to the motor other than stiffer valve springs, and in a couple of instances a stock Corvette Z06 camshaft.

Got my oil gauge converted to a live gauge now. I still don't understand why Ford put them as a dummy gauge from the factory....esp being a real Autometer gauge.

This motor appears to carry good oil PSI still. Probably one of the last pulls she will ever make under Ford power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nYSm6VSFVg

[Zack]

All this talk is making me want to do an LS engine.

[martyo]

All this talk is making me want to do an LS engine.

When you see how much power they make for less money it does start to make you want to move away from the mod motors!

[fastblackmerc]

Got my oil gauge converted to a live gauge now. I still don't understand why Ford put them as a dummy gauge from the factory....esp being a real Autometer gauge.


Most manufacturers changed to a "dummy" gauge years and years ago to cut down on customer complaints.

Average customer doesn't understand why the oil pressure fluctuates with a real gauge according to the RPM's.

The OEM gauge is "real" as it needs some oil pressure, I think about 6lbs to register anything.

True story: Back in the late 70's, early 80's had alot of Lincolns come into the dealership with owners complaining about the temp gauge was reading too high (not in the middle of the range). After testing to verify there was no problem, we took the gauge out and adjusted it so it would be in the middle of the range.

I added a buzzer to my MM to turn on any time the oil pressure gets below 7 or 8 lbs.

[96gt4.6]

All this talk is making me want to do an LS engine.

Eh, each has it own ups/downs honestly. Ford has some killer powertrains as well that I would much rather use on this build such as the Coyote 5.0L/6.2L or even an '03-04 Cobra powertrain (believe me, I've been looking hard before I remove the Marauder's engine!). Quite simply, it's just the cost here. Even salvage prices on a Coyote are almost triple what a stock 5.3L goes for.

Believe me, I WANT this build to be Blue Oval under the hood.....but I simply can't afford to drop that kind of coin into it simply to get the same HP I can otherwise.

As far as everyone seeing this and saying "I'm going LS now", eh, it's not all blondes/loud music and naked twister at that party either......

The only real issue's I can say I had going on the Vic, was simply the time taken to integrate everything, PROPERLY. I paid great attention to detail on using the stock Crown Vic shifter cable/shifter lever so it worked all stock, integrating the Ford wiring into the LS engine harness, circuit by circuit. Driveline angles/crossmember fabrication, clearance issues to all the stock HVAC parts/Evap core box, ect. It was a bit of work.......

So, to each his own no doudt....but me, I don't mind long hours at the shop and figuring out puzzles when it comes to cars, so it works for me.

But......fabbing up a turbo kit for this 'ole girl and getting busy, sure seems MUCH easier that converting to LS.....there's plenty of room for it even with the big 4v in there. I just know.....I won't be happy with 450-500 RWHP...which means I would have done all that fab/tuning/upgrading to the stock setup for nothing in the end.

I've seen some sick Modulars and know they are capable of some serious HP like the LS, but nothing this poor boy can afford :bows:

[8UWITH6]

On a quick side note. Where you happy with LSXKILR Custom Calibrations? If/when I ever dyno/tune the Marauder I was considering heading their way. We can take this to PM.

[8UWITH6]

All this talk is making me want to do an LS engine.

I have your LS project here waiting for you. LOL (bottom line of signature)

[Zack]

The only real issue's I can say I had going on the Vic, was simply the time taken to integrate everything, PROPERLY. I paid great attention to detail on using the stock Crown Vic shifter cable/shifter lever so it worked all stock, integrating the Ford wiring into the LS engine harness, circuit by circuit. Driveline angles/crossmember fabrication, clearance issues to all the stock HVAC parts/Evap core box, ect. It was a bit of work.......


I would be really impressed if someone made a piece so you could use the ford pcm/4r70w to run the LS engine.
You would need a crank adapter or some sort of electronics adapter. The wiring is the easy part.

[96gt4.6]

It would certainly save on swap time not having to mess with the driveline as much. However, the other issue might be the the 4R70W behind an LS. I'm not sure what HP they start to get sketchy at, but the 3/4 & 1 Ton 4L80E trans we use behind the LS will take around 800 fly HP with only a shift kit. They are a Turbo 400 with an overdrive planet added into the case essentially. Very tough units, and very cheap. One of the downsides is, they are heavy and big. The 80E on the Vic was pretty close to the tunnel, however I didn't have to modify anything to get it in there fortunately. The Panther chassis' has a pretty large tunnel despite never having been used with anything but the 4R70W.

[96gt4.6]

Here's the underhood of the Vic post swap. The only thing missing here is the A/C hoses, the rest of the car is completely functional.

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/The%20Vic/UNSETCALJAAI3_zps636f597d.jpg

You can see, in the upper RH corner, how I am using the stock Ford square-type wiring bulkhead connector. You could disconnect the powertrain and remove it with the wiring during engine service, just like the stock Ford engine. Also, all the injector/sensor power was connected to the appropriate Ford power feeds, so the fuse block and associated fuses were still correct as labeled.

The engine engine harness is fully hand built, by taking the GM harness, opening it up and removing every single wire/circuit 1 by 1, then going over to the Vic, laying the circuit back on the car and hemming the wire to length, followed by tape/loom/heat wrap. I retained the stock check engine light, through the stock DLC as well as kept the O/D cancel switch hooked up.

Ford switched up the ECU system in 2004 or so on these cars, so I'm fortunate this '03 has the older ECU where all the sending units are hardwired to the engine, and the cruise only requires a VSS signal to operate, which the LS computer puts out (although I use a Datoka Digital SGI-5 box to convert the LS's digital VSS out to an analog sine-wave the Ford system/speedo uses).

My thoughts, if you're going to create a bastard child.....you at least have to do it all right......

[Badass_forever]

Eh, each has it own ups/downs honestly. Ford has some killer powertrains as well that I would much rather use on this build such as the Coyote 5.0L/6.2L or even an '03-04 Cobra powertrain (believe me, I've been looking hard before I remove the Marauder's engine!). Quite simply, it's just the cost here. Even salvage prices on a Coyote are almost triple what a stock 5.3L goes for.

Believe me, I WANT this build to be Blue Oval under the hood.....but I simply can't afford to drop that kind of coin into it simply to get the same HP I can otherwise.

As far as everyone seeing this and saying "I'm going LS now", eh, it's not all blondes/loud music and naked twister at that party either......

The only real issue's I can say I had going on the Vic, was simply the time taken to integrate everything, PROPERLY. I paid great attention to detail on using the stock Crown Vic shifter cable/shifter lever so it worked all stock, integrating the Ford wiring into the LS engine harness, circuit by circuit. Driveline angles/crossmember fabrication, clearance issues to all the stock HVAC parts/Evap core box, ect. It was a bit of work.......

So, to each his own no doudt....but me, I don't mind long hours at the shop and figuring out puzzles when it comes to cars, so it works for me.

But......fabbing up a turbo kit for this 'ole girl and getting busy, sure seems MUCH easier that converting to LS.....there's plenty of room for it even with the big 4v in there. I just know.....I won't be happy with 450-500 RWHP...which means I would have done all that fab/tuning/upgrading to the stock setup for nothing in the end.

I've seen some sick Modulars and know they are capable of some serious HP like the LS, but nothing this poor boy can afford :bows:

man, my 2v made 612 whp for not a lot of money.. why not just do that! you could get a crank rods and pistons for 2k and make stupid power with a turbo, i had a 2.6kb on mine. its sitting in my garage if you're interested lol.

after the amount of money it cost to do the 4v swap "at least 10k" i should of just got stage 3 2V heads and been done with it.

[Zack]

I agree with it the above statement.
2v's are no joke if done right

[96gt4.6]

Agreed, there can be big power on some of the Ford setups no doudt, but again, 2k in a 2v is more than my entire ls powertrain. considering, I have made near 600 rwhp on a stock 6.0L LS, literally all stock down to the LQ4 cam, only the springs were changed. That was on 14psi/105 race gas. Although I agree it could be feasible on my budget criteria, I would also have to buy the Ford tuning software, in addition to do mods to the 4r70w to hold that power. My entire ls drivetrain, trans and all, that will produce at least 123 mph on a 4200 lb car in the 1/4, cost me around 3k said and done. That's engine/trans/turbo/injectors/swap mounts/tubing and misc.

For me, in my instance, there is no logic $$ wise to use any ford powerplant....believe me, I would love to!

[96gt4.6]

Got my pre swap baseline times tonight!

15.6@90.33. Bone stock Marauder, 4400 lbs, 3300 ft corrected density altitude.

https://youtu.be/0S1LbWy83KI

Seems about right on par for the stock HP rating of 300 crank.

[MMBLUE]

Am I the only one reading this thread and am sick of you saying you'd rather use blue oval yada, yada, yada money, blah, blah blah. :bs:

Just go with what you intend to do anyway in the first place. Put a CHEVY in a FORD. You were to never put blue oval in. I retract my original statement to you. Do it, and get it over with :flamer: .

[96gt4.6]

Am I the only one reading this thread and am sick of you saying you'd rather use blue oval yada, yada, yada money, blah, blah blah. :bs:
.

Then hit unsubscribe and stop reading the thread?

Thank you for your opinion and insight on my project though, the members here are more receptive than I thought they would be honestly.

[8UWITH6]

His car, his project, his choice. There is nothing wrong with him discussing his options with a diverse community of experienced car people. If a member has nothing helpful to add or discuss move on to the next thread. It is simple.

75 replied and over 1700 views I would say this is a popular discussion among our members. Maybe we should just start another what type of oil do you run thread instead?

[MMBLUE]

His car, his project, his choice. There is nothing wrong with him discussing his options with a diverse community of experienced car people. If a member has nothing helpful to add or discuss move on to the next thread. It is simple.

75 replied and over 1700 views I would say this is a popular discussion among our members. Maybe we should just start another what type of oil do you run thread instead?

Message was to him and NOT you. I used to think you were an okay guy with reasonable thoughts. Guess I was wrong.

If your going to say something stupid like that to me then, I guess you don't know me or have never read any of my threads.

It's only popular because he won't stop adding to it about his old CV and how he did so and so and how his Malibu did such and such. And how he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on Ford power plants, :blah: :blah::blah: How he wants not to tear apart a perfectly good MM and stick a Cheby in it. I say, screw it, and stop tap dancing saying that your contemplating doing it and just come out and say for SURE that you are doing it. Is that too much to ask. :dunno:

I'm sorry that I'm a MM purest. Maybe he can tout his LS crap on a LS forum or maybe you can open your own anything goes forum. Last time I check, this was a forum about MM's. :beer:

Back on topic. OP, I can't hit the ignore button with you because I want to see the train wreck too. :help: Just like everyone else that's reading this thread.

If your going to do it, then stick in 1st gear drive it down the road and rev it up to 10 grand for as long as it takes to blow it up. Then, sticking a LS in it makes sense. Heck, stick a Grand National motor in it from a matching numbers car :argue: Maybe 8UWITH6 will donate it ;)

[camelgrundle]

Please keep posting when you start the build! Some people want to see how this goes.

[jwibbity]

Message was to him and NOT you. I used to think you were an okay guy with reasonable thoughts. Guess I was wrong.

If your going to say something stupid like that to me then, I guess you don't know me or have never read any of my threads.

It's only popular because he won't stop adding to it about his old CV and how he did so and so and how his Malibu did such and such. And how he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on Ford power plants, :blah: :blah::blah: How he wants not to tear apart a perfectly good MM and stick a Cheby in it. I say, screw it, and stop tap dancing saying that your contemplating doing it and just come out and say for SURE that you are doing it. Is that too much to ask. :dunno:

I'm sorry that I'm a MM purest. Maybe he can tout his LS crap on a LS forum or maybe you can open your own anything goes forum. Last time I check, this was a forum about MM's. :beer:

Back on topic. OP, I can't hit the ignore button with you because I want to see the train wreck too. :help: Just like everyone else that's reading this thread.

If your going to do it, then stick in 1st gear drive it down the road and rev it up to 10 grand for as long as it takes to blow it up. Then, sticking a LS in it makes sense. Heck, stick a Grand National motor in it from a matching numbers car :argue: Maybe 8UWITH6 will donate it ;)

Somebody putting a chevy motor in a Ford makes you this butthurt?, its just a car bro....:rolleyes:

[345HP87SSAC]

Good luck with the swap. I think it is cool.

[LOWBUCKMM]

I like this LS swap stuff. Just did one into my friends 91 firebird. And soon I'm getting a super clean 84 foxbody roller for a 6.0 lq9 swap. If I already didn't have my car at the 500hp range and a built short block. I would be doing a lq9 swap to my marauder.

[MMBLUE]

Somebody putting a chevy motor in a Ford makes you this butthurt?, its just a car bro....:rolleyes:

NOT a surprising comment coming from you :shake:

[jwibbity]

NOT a surprising comment coming from you :shake:

:lol: you don't even know me

Get over yourself :P

[MMBLUE]

:lol: you don't even know me

Get over yourself :P


Trust me... We'll meet someday :D. You always have a lot to say criticizing people on this forum. You've done it to me a few times. Then I started looking at your other responses in other threads. If your 24 years old you have A LOT to learn. And if you are 24 I'll forgive for being 24 :P if you know what I mean. :flamer:

OP GO for it ! :beer: Everyone wants to see the build.

[Badass_forever]

Trust me... We'll meet someday :D. You always have a lot to say criticizing people on this forum. You've done it to me a few times. Then I started looking at your other responses in other threads. If your 24 years old you have A LOT to learn. And if you are 24 I'll forgive for being 24 :P if you know what I mean. :flamer:

OP GO for it ! :beer: Everyone wants to see the build.


there are two types of "car" enthusiast, I'm using enthusiast lightly here.

The first are guys that love the art and skill of car building, they will help anyone out at any given time, they will lookout for you and your car whatever the brand may be, they understand the work, effort and time that goes into any project, and even tho it may not be what there personal taste are, they can still respect the project "finished or unfinished"

The second type, I find this with a lot of truck guys. They don't give a **** about you or your "not there brand of truck" To them you are a complete idiot. How dare you do something using another brand of "whatever you are doing" and show your face near my stuff. Then they yell, this is merica buddy.

you "whoever acts like this" are a ****ing *******. Stop *****ing on other peoples passions.

:violin:

[MMBLUE]

there are two types of "car" enthusiast, I'm using enthusiast lightly here.

The first are guys that love the art and skill of car building, they will help anyone out at any given time, they will lookout for you and your car whatever the brand may be, they understand the work, effort and time that goes into any project, and even tho it may not be what there personal taste are, they can still respect the project "finished or unfinished"

The second type, I find this with a lot of truck guys. They don't give a **** about you or your "not there brand of truck" To them you are a complete idiot. How dare you do something using another brand of "whatever you are doing" and show your face near my stuff. Then they yell, this is merica buddy.

you "whoever acts like this" are a ****ing *******. Stop *****ing on other peoples passions.

:violin:

I'm glad you think your a badass. No body else does. BTW I don't own a truck. I could count on 3 fingers how many I've had.

The good part here is, your showing your immature age. And, your probably a spill over from CV.net and don't even own a Marauder. Go hack a CV there are plenty of them out there to do it on. Do it on your own for all I care.

I forgot more about cars and building my own racecars than you'll ever know.

Like I said earlier before all of you got your panties in a wad, these cars are rare and don't deserve to be cut up or hack up. Evidently, I'm the only one on this forum who feels this way. Lots of lookers but no one with the balz to speak up and call it like it is.

[jwibbity]

Trust me... We'll meet someday :D. You always have a lot to say criticizing people on this forum. You've done it to me a few times. Then I started looking at your other responses in other threads. If your 24 years old you have A LOT to learn. And if you are 24 I'll forgive for being 24 :P if you know what I mean. :flamer:

OP GO for it ! :beer: Everyone wants to see the build.
Because most of the time your being a douche to people, just like the OP earlier, your responses offered little to no help to him whatsoever

[8UWITH6]

Message was to him and NOT you. I used to think you were an okay guy with reasonable thoughts. Guess I was wrong.

If your going to say something stupid like that to me then, I guess you don't know me or have never read any of my threads.

It's only popular because he won't stop adding to it about his old CV and how he did so and so and how his Malibu did such and such. And how he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on Ford power plants, :blah: :blah::blah: How he wants not to tear apart a perfectly good MM and stick a Cheby in it. I say, screw it, and stop tap dancing saying that your contemplating doing it and just come out and say for SURE that you are doing it. Is that too much to ask. :dunno:

I'm sorry that I'm a MM purest. Maybe he can tout his LS crap on a LS forum or maybe you can open your own anything goes forum. Last time I check, this was a forum about MM's. :beer:

Back on topic. OP, I can't hit the ignore button with you because I want to see the train wreck too. :help: Just like everyone else that's reading this thread.

If your going to do it, then stick in 1st gear drive it down the road and rev it up to 10 grand for as long as it takes to blow it up. Then, sticking a LS in it makes sense. Heck, stick a Grand National motor in it from a matching numbers car :argue: Maybe 8UWITH6 will donate it ;)

I did not reply directly to you MMboohoo. But, I will now.

I think its funny you feel you are allowed to voice your opinion but I am not? How does that **** work? You are the only one with a problem with this thread it appears. If there are others they understand common courtesy and don't reply if they do not have something constructive to add. I understand passion for an automobile, trust me. If you want numbers matching every chalk mark under the hood and hose clamp original that is cool! Been there done that. But don't knock others for doing things differently to their automobile than you would do to yours. This is a forum for Marauders, and he has one. End of story. Move on to the next thread sir.:beer:

OP. Sorry.

[MOTOWN]

I did not reply directly to you MMboohoo. But, I will now.

I think its funny you feel you are allowed to voice your opinion but I am not? How does that **** work? You are the only one with a problem with this thread it appears. If there are others they understand common courtesy and don't reply if they do not have something constructive to add. I understand passion for an automobile, trust me. If you want numbers matching every chalk mark under the hood and hose clamp original that is cool! Been there done that. But don't knock others for doing things differently to their automobile than you would do to yours. This is a forum for Marauders, and he has one. End of story. Move on to the next thread sir.:beer:

OP. Sorry.

I couldn't agree more! Very well said sir!

[2mercs]

LS swap is overdone. Do a Porsche 911 turbo swap. Rear engine marauder FTMFW!

[8UWITH6]

Where is the like button?

[96gt4.6]

Getting pretty interesting in here guys! I appreciate the opinions, good or bad, and it's to be expected on an internet forum so no harm done. My best advice to those who don't care for other's opinion, use the 'Report a Post" button on the user in questions posts, the mod's will take care of it if it warrants action. I just stop feeding the trolls in this case :)

No worries, unless the moderators dictate otherwise, this thread will continue on as I progress, thanks for all that are interested for sticking around.

I was able to secure the final engine which will be used in this swap. Originally, I had procured two choices, an iron LQ4 6.0L (~345 hp all stock), and an Aluminum 5.3L (~320 hp all stock). After some trading, I last night I picked up the final engine for this combo.

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-05/20150503_201245_zpsol1ctuqa.jp g

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-05/20150503_201306_zpsokz8d4h0.jp g

I ended up getting an LS3 Corvette 6.2L (430 HP all stock). This will be my first 6.2L build on an LS series, however I've tuned a few of them and they seem to do pretty well. They are around 480-500 fly hp with full bolt on when in the Corvettes, and on boost seem to pull up VERY well.

So at this point, I've got about a month to a month and a half before I complete my remaining obligations in my shop, and get the Marauder back in for surgery! Till then I have a few car shows I will attend, and generally get used to and enjoy driving the car, which by the way are very nice in comparison to my old Vic (not intending to hurt anyone's feelings with a Vic!). The leather and full options, coupled with the sporty look and feel of the Marauder, heavily reinforces why these cars are so popular amongst the community of people that own them.

More to come!

[camelgrundle]

That ls3 should do nicely! Can't wait to see this build.

[silversnake]

When it's all said and done it sort of takes away from the marauder. I'm curious to which side you choose at a car show event? Will the focus now be on the Chevy powertrain driving the MM? There are a lot of die hard ford enthusiast that won't give two ***** about how much power this thing makes if its not POWERD BY FORD. Your car your built your $$. I'd just like to see more Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge rivalries. Will this become the new swap for the MM since the eaton swap started? If he says it's cheaper than the eaton swap would this be the new trend?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marauderjack]

What PCM might ya use with the Chebby motor??:confused:

Will the rest of the Marauder work right with it??:cool:

Amazingly there is a LOT more to our cars than just the drive train....unless it's just gonna be a "Drag Car"!!:rolleyes:

[96gt4.6]

Jack,

I use the stock GM computers ('99-07 Silverado), a GM 4L80E trans, and integrate all the stock shift linkage as well as keep all the stock gauges functional. Unless you open the hood, you can never tell what's under it. Please see my videos and build info on my Turbo Vic, as I had linked a fee pages back.

I prefer all my projects to be a true street car, in my mind that means it appears as close to factory visually and functionally as possible. Cruise, A/C and other O.E. systems are kept on board and operational.

[8UWITH6]

First impression is everything. Which in the OP's case will be a Marauder. You cant make everyone happy, nor should you have too. But at least the skin of this being is Marauder, while the heartbeat might be something else.

[Marauderjack]

Jack,

I use the stock GM computers ('99-07 Silverado), a GM 4L80E trans, and integrate all the stock shift linkage as well as keep all the stock gauges functional. Unless you open the hood, you can never tell what's under it. Please see my videos and build info on my Turbo Vic, as I had linked a fee pages back.

I prefer all my projects to be a true street car, in my mind that means it appears as close to factory visually and functionally as possible. Cruise, A/C and other O.E. systems are kept on board and operational.

So the FORD PCM runs the rest of the car but how does it like not having the motor to control?? :confused:

How do you get around the PCM inputs from the motor??:(

[96gt4.6]

On this particular model year of vehicle, the Ford ecu does little more than run the engine and Ford trans. The rest of the body has separate modules for their respective functions. the cluster less the tach, has all hardwired from sender inputs, so it's as simple as using the senders from the Ford engine on the ls Engine. I use a Dakota Digital SGI-5 signal conversion box to convert the ls computers digital speed signal output to a Ford sine-wave signal and feed it into the appropriate VSS signal wire on the Ford ecu pin. This let's the cruise and speedo operate on the Cluster.

Any vehicles newer than this, become more difficult dut to sshared sensor values over the vehicle network.

[Marauderjack]

On this particular model year of vehicle, the Ford ecu does little more than run the engine and Ford trans. The rest of the body has separate modules for their respective functions. the cluster less the tach, has all hardwired from sender inputs, so it's as simple as using the senders from the Ford engine on the ls Engine. I use a Dakota Digital SGI-5 signal conversion box to convert the ls computers digital speed signal output to a Ford sine-wave signal and feed it into the appropriate VSS signal wire on the Ford ecu pin. This let's the cruise and speedo operate on the Cluster.

Any vehicles newer than this, become more difficult dut to sshared sensor values over the vehicle network.

Sounds like ya got it figgered out!!:beer:

[96gt4.6]

Hopefully anyhow! It's pretty much the exact same swap as my Vic was. The wiring is pretty much identical on how it's setup. I'd have to look in the factory wiring diagrams, but somewhere around '04-5 is the switch year I believe, and the wiring part of it gets more complicated, as most of the PCM's sensor values, ect are all shared over the vehicle network, which would greatly complicate things.

Fortunately, on this year of Marauder, it's still the old setup.

[Fastbob]

That LS3 is awfully clean. Has it been apart?

[96gt4.6]

No. It has about 10k on it, my friend that I got it from purchased it new (GM Crate engine) about 5 years ago, used in a pickup project until recently.

[Fastbob]

10k, that explains it. LS2 and LS3 frequently seep around the pan gasket. It just looked too clean.

Good luck with it and let me know if you intend to run it at the strip in Great Bend. I will come up and watch.

Bob

[LSp8]

I'm glad you think your a badass. No body else does. BTW I don't own a truck. I could count on 3 fingers how many I've had.

The good part here is, your showing your immature age. And, your probably a spill over from CV.net and don't even own a Marauder. Go hack a CV there are plenty of them out there to do it on. Do it on your own for all I care.

I forgot more about cars and building my own racecars than you'll ever know.

Like I said earlier before all of you got your panties in a wad, these cars are rare and don't deserve to be cut up or hack up. Evidently, I'm the only one on this forum who feels this way. Lots of lookers but no one with the balz to speak up and call it like it is.

Somebody's panties are in a bunch. Seriously I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Seems like he's the smartest guy on this forum since he can do what guys on here did for 3k that it took 20k or more to accomplish. I'm glad his ultra rare and perfectly good MM didn't go to the boneyard like many others do and we'll have one less MM to see the light of day. If I were keeping my MM I'd do the exact same thing. MOD motors are just too expensive compared to LSX plus LSX engines are everywhere for ridiculously cheap and superior to Blue Oval motors perfromance wise.

[LSp8]

I like this LS swap stuff. Just did one into my friends 91 firebird. And soon I'm getting a super clean 84 foxbody roller for a 6.0 lq9 swap. If I already didn't have my car at the 500hp range and a built short block. I would be doing a lq9 swap to my marauder.

The stock LQ9 in my Escalade with nearly 200k miles is amazing, bulletproof and is no slouch. I can't believe how this mill efficiently moves 6,000 lbs of truck with absolutely no mods, not even a cai. I even thought about putting this motor in my impala but since the OP brought a LS3 to the table that might be the way to go.

I believe as these cars get cheaper and the parts get cheaper these particular swaps WILL be common in comparison to supercharging stockers for folks that want to get these tanks moving on a budget, especially with Crown Vics. I would be really butt hurt getting smoked by a bunch of LS powered Vics lol.

[MERCMAN]

If you don't like what the OP is doing, don't read this thread. Keep negative comments to yourself. There are a number of members watching this thread to gain some insight on the Chevy motor swap. As it was so aptly put " his car, his $" The OP is to be commended for his efforts to keep another MM out of the scrapyard :up:

[Badass_forever]

Somebody's panties are in a bunch. Seriously I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Seems like he's the smartest guy on this forum since he can do what guys on here did for 3k that it took 20k or more to accomplish. I'm glad his ultra rare and perfectly good MM didn't go to the boneyard like many others do and we'll have one less MM to see the light of day. If I were keeping my MM I'd do the exact same thing. MOD motors are just too expensive compared to LSX plus LSX engines are everywhere for ridiculously cheap and superior to Blue Oval motors perfromance wise.

so very true, I have not been here long but I have noticed that people seem to get really upset when you try and tell them they don't need to spend 20K to go fast. as "rare" as these cars are, they are still cars and not that big of a deal.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Bump for a good thread.

:beer:

[tdotcv]

I ordered a tensioner two months ago from blueovalchips and still haven't received it yet. I email and no response and I call and it goes to voicemail aND message says the mailbox is full. Do you have a contact number so I can speak with someone or get someone to call me asap please help out!

[stevengerard]

FWIW, I like this thread. Heck its only a motor swap, next owner can put a Ford engine back in.

[sailsmen]

I say you put a sticker of a little boy urinating on the Blue Oval on the rear window!
When they ask just tell them meet me at the drag strip and you will find out.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you guys for your continued support and insight on this swap. Sailesmen, I had contemplated a few 'questionable' stickers on the Crown Vic....haha, but in the end, I found it better to try and keep the exterior/interior and every aspect of the swap as much Blue Oval, and everything to do with it as possible. However, I would most certainly be a head scratching moment unless one knew what was under the hood! haha.

But in all seriousness, I was very cautious at car shows with the Vic, and occasionally I had some Ford guys that gave me a little heat about it, but as with most car shows it was all in good fun.

So far we're on track still. I traded out some labor for the LS3 (I'm fairly proficient at wiring LS swaps) so I have a couple of swaps to wire up before I clear shop space to get the Marauder in and started on. In the mean time, she's going to a car show next weekend, might as well enjoy her while I'm not doing much with her!

Hoping, in the next month to month and a half to be caught up enough to get it in the shop and start on her, at which time, will be a non stop ordeal until it's done.

Stick with me, the thread will spring to life with pics just as the Vic one did once I start!

[96gt4.6]

I will also note, I intend to make this thread a road map for the swap as best I can with pics/ect as I move along. Therein, if anyone decides to proceed with a swap of their own, there can be some sort of reference as to how for the most part.

The only wildcard on this whole deal is, I'm never attached to anything per-se, so it's ENTIRELY possible someone could offer some serious $$ for the Marauder as-is between now and when I start on it, and it could go away......but NOT likely at this point, as I've got the thing looking just too good to let go....

[jwibbity]

I will also note, I intend to make this thread a road map for the swap as best I can with pics/ect as I move along. Therein, if anyone decides to proceed with a swap of their own, there can be some sort of reference as to how for the most part.

The only wildcard on this whole deal is, I'm never attached to anything per-se, so it's ENTIRELY possible someone could offer some serious $$ for the Marauder as-is between now and when I start on it, and it could go away......but NOT likely at this point, as I've got the thing looking just too good to let go....

Once you start documenting and stuff, start a brand new thread, that way people dont have to sort through all the crap/hating in this thread earlier, :beer:

[JBeezy]

Yea do that. I'm at 56k miles and already thinking of what I'm going to do when the time comes for a new engine.

[lifespeed]

The cost of a used junkyard cast-piston LS motor compared to a rebuilt, forged modular motor is not a fair comparison. A good-quality, forged engine costs a lot in either Ford or Chevy. Also, while the OP may have specific experience and skill in retrofitting the Chevy into a panther, I think it is important to remember this is a big undertaking both electrically, and to a lesser extent, mechanically. Errors could be made if one doesn't know exactly what to do.

I just think it is appropriate to keep all this in perspective. Yes, a stock LS motor can make more power than a stock mod motor. It is larger displacement. But you've still got a cast motor. Which may be enough. And you have the retrofit challenge. Which you may be able to do, or you may have some trouble. At a minimum there is going to be significant cost associated with the retrofit in time, money or both.

I really question the assumption of a significant cost advantage when time is factored in. The OP probably has a unique advantage here having done it before, but I'm going to venture a guess there are at least dozens of hours in retrofit work alone.

So yeah, do what you want to your car and make it fast. But the LS swap is no $600 silver bullet for your underpowered Marauder woes.

[MMBLUE]

Once you start documenting and stuff, start a brand new thread, that way people dont have to sort through all the crap/hating in this thread earlier, :beer:

Have you ever heard of the first amendment :confused: This was a " I'm thinking/contemplating about going turbo LS swap in a MM" Soooooo opinions were expressed whether you like it or not. And mine stands :beer:
Personally, I have resorted to the fact the he is at least still keeping it on the road :bows:Taking a perfectly good MM motor out to do so :help: I'm coming to grips with. Maybe he can donate it to some who blew theirs up.:beer: Then that would be respectable on a whole other level. :bows:
(compliments enclosed)

[8UWITH6]

Why are people so butthurt about this thread? I don't get it.

[MOTOWN]

Why are people so butthurt about this thread? I don't get it.

Because you have a few closed minded people who are "Brand loyal" I've built plenty of GM and Ford vehicles and don't care which brand i build , just so long as i like the car.

[Nightcrawler]

Why not look for a wrecked Terminator? Factory Forged motor, practically drop-in, and able to withstand 600+rwhp on the stock block? Other than the price, that seems like the best way to go.

[rauder88]

Why not look for a wrecked Terminator? Factory Forged motor, practically drop-in, and able to withstand 600+rwhp on the stock block? Other than the price, that seems like the best way to go.

The whole point is $ per HP. Way easier to obtain 600 rwhp on low $$. He can buy all the parts needed for what that Cobra motor will run. Yes Modular motors can crank out gobs of power but it is expensive!

OP is this done yet lol

[Nightcrawler]

The whole point is $ per HP. Way easier to obtain 600 rwhp on low $$. He can buy all the parts needed for what that Cobra motor will run. Yes Modular motors can crank out gobs of power but it is expensive!

OP is this done yet lol

Yep, my friend has a 89 Fox with a junkyard 6.0 and 80mm turbo, 800+ on the stock bottom end. Lsx can't be beat for cheap power.:bows:

[LSp8]

Yep, my friend has a 89 Fox with a junkyard 6.0 and 80mm turbo, 800+ on the stock bottom end. Lsx can't be beat for cheap power.:bows:

So True^^^^hence why I'm completely done with MOD motors. There's a reason GM and Mopar still do traditional push rods. LS FTW

[Nightcrawler]

I haven't read through all the pages, what motor are you going with? Ls or iron Lq?

[96gt4.6]

I currently have a Corvette LS3 6.2L on the stand ready to install once the project takes off here shortly.

I was happy with the LQ4 on the Vic, but this motor happened to fall into my lap so this build will be a GEN 4.

[96gt4.6]

This guy makes a VERY good point.

Although I may tote the LS swap as the end all for cheap $/HP......I indeed have a significant advantage in the swap, as well as the background to make it function.

I am a Ford Master Certified dealer tech, with over 10 years at the dealer, hold an AAS Degree with a Major in Automotive Technology, have access to a personal shop with all the necessary fabrication equipment, wiring diagrams and shop tools.

Not having access to such tools, publications and equipment as well as a highly skilled background in the field, and this make/model, would most certainly come into play on the advantage/disadvantage of the swap.

I can say, the first time around, there was a LOT involved in the swap, simply because I integrated every aspect of the Ford chassis into it. Everything, EVERYTHING worked except the A/C, which simply required rubber lines fabricated and the minor electrical wired in.

I agree, this is NOT for the backyard/weekend hotrodder........period. You need a FIRM handle on fabrication skills, wiring and tuning to keep the costs as low as my documented swaps have been.

UPDATE:

Still working on clearing the two remaining vehicles from my shop on the agenda, then the Marauder gets pulled in finally! I've fallen behind, so I'm still on that month and a half-ish timeframe. Possibly August to start, end of year to complete.

Thanks for the continued interest!


The cost of a used junkyard cast-piston LS motor compared to a rebuilt, forged modular motor is not a fair comparison. A good-quality, forged engine costs a lot in either Ford or Chevy. Also, while the OP may have specific experience and skill in retrofitting the Chevy into a panther, I think it is important to remember this is a big undertaking both electrically, and to a lesser extent, mechanically. Errors could be made if one doesn't know exactly what to do.

I just think it is appropriate to keep all this in perspective. Yes, a stock LS motor can make more power than a stock mod motor. It is larger displacement. But you've still got a cast motor. Which may be enough. And you have the retrofit challenge. Which you may be able to do, or you may have some trouble. At a minimum there is going to be significant cost associated with the retrofit in time, money or both.

I really question the assumption of a significant cost advantage when time is factored in. The OP probably has a unique advantage here having done it before, but I'm going to venture a guess there are at least dozens of hours in retrofit work alone.

So yeah, do what you want to your car and make it fast. But the LS swap is no $600 silver bullet for your underpowered Marauder woes.

[96gt4.6]

Why not look for a wrecked Terminator? Factory Forged motor, practically drop-in, and able to withstand 600+rwhp on the stock block? Other than the price, that seems like the best way to go.


Price....plain and simple.

A salvage pullout terminator setup will net around $6000 give/take.

I have the stock Marauder engine sold for $1500, trans for $500.

I already have the LS3 on the stand, and 4L80E ready to go. Therefore, for what I'm selling the stock Marauder engine/trans for, I can nearly pay for the LS install, which can take in excess of 800 flywheel HP in stock form.

It's simply about the cost. Believe me, if the terminator was a cheaper setup, I'd love to do it.

[lji372]

Price....plain and simple.

A salvage pullout terminator setup will net around $6000 give/take.

I have the stock Marauder engine sold for $1500, trans for $500.

I already have the LS3 on the stand, and 4L80E ready to go. Therefore, for what I'm selling the stock Marauder engine/trans for, I can nearly pay for the LS install, which can take in excess of 800 flywheel HP in stock form.

It's simply about the cost. Believe me, if the terminator was a cheaper setup, I'd love to do it.


I'm curious, how many hours will you have into the ls swap as opposed to the terminator? I'm not a nay sayer by any means, I envy your skills. I only ask because I wonder what you value your time at by looking at the cost savings between the two.

[96gt4.6]

Just spitballing, I would guesstimate there is about 20-30 hours in a terminator vs. LS swap, difference.

Both swaps require an engine pull/install, intake system modification+intercooler install, exhaust system modification (no point in using stock h pipe/cats with the termi setup), fuel system modification.

Selling the stock 4v offsets $1500 from the Termi setup and LS setup, trans is a wash on the LS setup as I paid $500 for the 80E which is what I sold the stock 70W for.

The labor times, I'm wiling to bet are close both ways, as the termi setup isn't plug and play either.

Good discussion!

[96gt4.6]

Just some food for thought here......

I thought about pounding out 3 or 4 kits for these cars while I'm fabbing them up on mine. It would be something of the sort that they are fabbed on my car, tested, then removed and sold. But, I'd need to gauge interest first to see if it's worth my time.

This would be a DIY installation kit, with pre fabbed Ford to GM LS series wiring harness, turbo, intercooler, piping, downpipe, pre-tuned computer, ect.

What kind of interest do you guys think there would be in such a kit? What price range would you expect to pay? This would help me get an idea of if it's worth my time to try and do.

[camelgrundle]

If I blow my second motor I would be interested. Your the one building it throw out a price range for people to see and it might draw more interest.

[96gt4.6]

What i'll probably end up doing, is keeping detailed track of my time in this build both fabrication/tune and materials wise, then compiling actual kit cost and seeing where that leaves us $$ wise.

Then, if feasible and enough interest, go from there.

I'm willing to bet however, as others have stated, when I factor in actual time and at a rate that would be acceptable for such kits, it's going to be a decent cost.

[cmalo]

Sorry, as much as am amazed by the Chevrolet LS engine family, I personally think Ford products should have Ford engines and Chevys should have Chevys. The engine is like the heart and soul of the vehicle in my opinion. If this were an Impala SS, an LS turbo motor would be a great swap. C. Malo

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Zack]

What i'll probably end up doing, is keeping detailed track of my time in this build both fabrication/tune and materials wise, then compiling actual kit cost and seeing where that leaves us $$ wise.

Then, if feasible and enough interest, go from there.

I'm willing to bet however, as others have stated, when I factor in actual time and at a rate that would be acceptable for such kits, it's going to be a decent cost.

A: don't do it.
B: if you do, charge no less than 8-10K

[96gt4.6]

Far too late for that unfortunately.....I had it listed on Ebay and these car's just aren't that rare, or the market is soft. 7k was all she topped out at. That pretty much sealed the deal as far as swap goes. Motor/trans have been sold for about a month, just waiting on me to make my decision and get started. That's $2k towards the swap right off.

I agree, that time is worth money and i'm sure it will be a pretty penny with the labor involved......as some have pointed out, indeed it's really only worth doing IF you're capable and have the resources to do so.

The LS3 going in is near 500 fly HP before boost in current trim (dyno verified), after some good fuel and boost hopefully she will produce.

I will start a new thread when I get under way, as this thread was simply a discussion on the matter, for which I appreciate all that have participated and offered their opinion.

[Merrill]

You are the guy who prompts me to thank people for keeping a Ford in their Ford, sorry but you are ruining a low production car. Your car, time and money but you asked for comments.

[8UWITH6]

Thanks for your opinion. It is noted. Read a couple pages back people expressed their dislike for this swap. But zero F's given.

Oh and he didnt ruin it. He saved it....................... It was a POS before. Now its a freshly painted and going to be very powerful Mercury no matter the heart beat.

Jeez. SMH

[lji372]

If it runs I like it.

If it runs faster I like it more.

Zero f's on what power plant IMHO.

If you have the time and skills to do it yourself I like it even more :beer:

[345HP87SSAC]

What 8U said. It was a tired old hulk that he saved even the engine will go someplace better than what the last owner thought. I like creativeness. Heck if the price was right I'd put a Furd motor in my Chevy just to get people talking!

[PHHHHTT]

For those of you who really don't care what's under the hood....

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098780_ford-mustang-electric-drag-car-does-0-to-60-mph-under-2-seconds-targets-200-mph

[96gt4.6]

^ I had seen that in a news ticker on Facebook!

And no worries guys, all opinions are welcome! I can see both sides of the argument.

Indeed, this car was destined for the crusher when I got ahold of it. I paid $1800 for it as it sat on the dealer lot, whom which had it destined for whole sale to the scrap yard as per the salesman. I was informed of the car via friends that work at the dealer. Previous owner didn't want to put any money into the car and traded it. Upon getting it to my shop, I found that the LH bank had low/uneven compression, further diagnosis revealed a broken LH secondary timing chain (which SOMEHOW didn't hit any valves!). Replaced the chain, motor runs great and the interior of the car cleaned up like new. Exterior is now fully redone professionally (performed by licensed body men whom i'm friends with) so there's no worry it's a hack job that will chip and be junk a year from now. Had about 6 cars redone by them to date, all of which are local and look immaculate still. I have put almost 1k miles on the car daily driving it while I prepare for the swap gathering the necessary parts, as well as ran it down the dragstrip once to get a baseline for the car. In all honesty, i'm in love with the car, but it lacks heavily in the speed department for my tastes. My tow vehicle (2004 Silverado SS) bested it by over 1/2 second in the 1/4 mile and by 2 MPH trap speed, all while weighing almost 1800 lbs more. It's a stock natrually aspirated 6.0L GEN 3 chevy. I believe with the 6.2L GEN 4 LS3 under the hood of the Marauder, fed by 15 psi of forced Kansas air with some VP race fuel in the tank, the Marauder will be a whole different beast.....all while maintaining factory air conditioning, overdrive, full interior and creature comforts as my last one did.

Leakdown and air testing of all valves/cylinders on the affected bank right after I determined root cause:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150313_224619_zpstu8pqmkm.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150313_224650_zpsoxlcs8fu.jp g

Before & After:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150315_123609_zpsurxudu8e.jp g

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter_zpsp 7yzkuqr.jpg

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Marauder%20BeforeampAfter3_zps 54mknok4.jpg

The heart of this girl already has a new owner as soon as it's pulled, and is going in a Marauder with a truly destroyed engine, all while mine continues on under new 'Management' as i'll put it....haha.

Getting closer to go time!

[Accumulator]

This conversion reminds me of the old "Fordillac" conversions from back in the day. I met an old-timer who built his back in the '50s and was still driving it decades later...very cool car IMO even if some purists believe that he "bastardized" a nice classic.

[blkZooM]

I feel like I need to ask because I just don't understand, why do so much people get butt hurt over what engine goes into what, it's just a car get over it. If you care so much just go look under your hood and forget about this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sailsmen]

Maybe because it's a MercuryMarauder.net site?

Who cares who wins the Super Bowl, it's just a game.

[MMBLUE]

Maybe because it's a MercuryMarauder.net site?



Where in the hell is the like button :confused:

[lji372]

Maybe because it's a MercuryMarauder.net site?

Who cares who wins the Super Bowl, it's just a game.

If it drove by you still say damn that was a nice marauder!

And I personally don't care who wins the Super Bowl, as long as I hit on a square :P

Where is the like button on zero F's given on motor brand.

If it makes you guys happy maybe he'll do the covers in ford blue :lol:

[blkZooM]

If it drove by you still say damn that was a nice marauder!



And I personally don't care who wins the Super Bowl, as long as I hit on a square :P



Where is the like button on zero F's given on motor brand.



If it makes you guys happy maybe he'll do the covers in ford blue :lol:


Thumbs up. Since there isn't a like button


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fastbob]

That DOHC motor removed from the Marauder looks pretty darn clean inside. It must have been well serviced.

[8UWITH6]

Again, OP owns a MERCURY MARAUDER............... if he shut his hood and didn't say anything to anybody some of you idiots wouldn't know the difference anyway............

[Zack]

Again, OP owns a MERCURY MARAUDER............... if he shut his hood and didn't say anything to anybody some of you idiots wouldn't know the difference anyway............

I love drunk posts!!!!

[8UWITH6]

I was sober as a bird.

[Nightcrawler]

Lol^ he's right though.

[96gt4.6]

Getting closer to getting her on the operating table!

I've got another conundrum.........

5.0L Modulars are getting VERY lucrative right now on price......

I'm currently putting the numbers together for a Coyote turbo setup, but time will tell.....

If I offload this LS3 i'll have a bit of coin to work with combined with the coin from the stock 4.6L 4v.

BUT.......this presents a lot of challenges as well for me.

Biggest immediate issues I see are:

1. ECU system. I'm obviously going to have to invest in some Ford tuning equipment/hardware.

2. Use the 4R70W or just go all out and work with the 6L80E? Most obvious would be using the 6L80 as if I go 4r70W it would need a separate controller I would assume.

How much can a 5.0L (F150) Coyote handle HP wise on boost? I've heard they are tough, but HOW tough?

any help and feedback/opinions are appreciated!

[lifespeed]

How will you control the Variable Valve Timing? Two computers like your LS swap?

[96gt4.6]

In this instance, i'd run the coyote ECU and integrate it into the Marauder, which basically requires little to no work as the Marauder is an older 'dummy' system as I refer to it.

My tuning software (HP Tuners) does Ford ECU's as well, as i've tuned some Coyote pickups already. However, none forced induction and last I knew they were still working on a vehicle security (PATS) workaround in the tune, however it was coming very shortly. This way, you could use the stock ECU's to run them like we do with the Chevy's.

[lifespeed]

Just to clarify, this is the same approach as the Chevy swap; run the engine only with the Coyote ECU, and run the rest of the car with the OEM ECU? I would not be surprised if the Coyote expects to see more than the engine connected, PATS as you mention.

Good luck, the Coyote is an interesting subject not attempted yet AFAIK. Here on MM.net we love DOHC.

[96gt4.6]

Correct lifespeed, however the factory Marauder ECU does nothing but run the engine/trans on these models. The gauges are still hardwired to the engine, ABS is standalone, as well as the VDM (Air Ride), ect. It's pretty simple really. As far as the Coyote needing to see more, with the HPT software you just disable the other items just like the Chevy ECU's we use, and it will simply run just the engine and transmission.

I'll put some leg work into research on this for the moment, SIMPLY because the Coyote i've found is for a very good price. I'll also be using the 6L80 trans removed from the same donor F150, so it will be a 5.0L/6 speed auto combo.

here's the MAKE or BREAK factor,

How. Much. Can. The. Stock. Coyote. Take. For. HP??


If it can't compete with the GEN 3/4 LS Stock v. Stock on boost without failing, it's a non-option.

[lifespeed]

Here is a Coyote blurb, the F150 lower compression ratio would be preferred for boost. They key weak-link component appears to be the connecting rods, followed by the pistons. The LS motor probably has powdered metal rods also, seems everything does these days. Just a question of who built in more design margin.

I'm sure MM.net is not the best place for Coyote questions, but of course we're interested to hear what you find out.

• A higher compression version of the 5.0L is found in the Ford Mustang, boosting power ratings as high as 412 hp and 390 lb-ft of torque.
• Piston cooling jets provide additional heat protection and piston longevity.
• 5.0L V8 features a forged steel crankshaft and cross bolted mains for strength.
• Oil cooler and deep sump oil pan give the 5.0L 10,000 mile oil change intervals.
• The intake ports of the 5.0L outflow Ford GT heads.
• Powder metal connecting rods, forged crankshaft, hypereutectic pistons.
• Ford engineers put a significant amount of effort into NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) control when designing the new 5.0L.

[blkZooM]

From what I've read and seen the 5.0's in mustang are stout stock plenty make from low 700 to low 800 with turbos, and the 6r80 are even more stouts (the ones in mustangs at least)! I was going to say you would be crazy not to use the 6r80 a lot of people want to use that trans right now and can't because it can only be used with the cars Pcm

[96gt4.6]

I think a lot of that will change in the short term blkZooM, as currently, with HPT really cranking out Ford Coyote Support, I know from a software standpoint, I can use a truck ECU no problem.

I'm pretty well versed in the hardware side of it, just overhauled a 6R80 today (dealership tech by trade under the Blue Oval), it's the software/ECU side that I need pay attention to. However, I see the Ford Racing wiring harness/ecu has come down to $1100 currently, that's a big jump.

IF this goes Coyote, it will be using the 6R80, no questions asked.

From my very spotty research, I too have seen the Coyote have failure points around those numbers, which is right on par with LS motors.

Tonight i'll compile some in depth research to see how this will go........

[96gt4.6]

Well it's just not in the cards. There are some real hurdles to overcome if going 5.0L to meet my end goal.

Some of the major issues for me are:

1. Cruise Control Integration - The stock Marauder cruise servo simply requires a VSS input, which the GM LS computer can output and make work (proven via my Vic build). The issue isn't the VSS signal, it's the fact that on the 5.0L there is no cable throttle body....it's all electronic, and is handled by the SCCM (Steering column control module), then the commands are transmitted via the network to the PCM, which presents a huge issue with keeping it Ford, as I'd have to find a way to install the SCCM module in the Marauder and make it happy enough to work and transmit the button's (after I install the proper resistors to mimic the OE steering wheel button resistance for each function) commands via the network to the ECU.

2. Air Conditioning - The LS computer has hard wired inputs for AC request, so that the ecu increases idle speed and actuates the cooling fans seamlessly. The Coyote PCM receives all inputs via network from the climate control module, which presents another huge problem. I've worked around this problem on GM swaps before but simply engaging the ac compressor without the ECU knowing really messes with idle speeds and idle trim learning. HP Tuners gave us a LOT of control in the GM computers for hard wire AC inputs, amongst many other things we need on swaps.

My research has indicated that the motor itself, can handle quite a bit of HP like the GM setup. And having the 6spd, would be killer as well and they are indeed tough all stock. The issue is though, that I simply can't keep everything functional like my Vic, seamless and fully functional, with the Coyote setup. There has to be too much sacrifice, workarounds, or problems to make it all work out, for near the same HP in the end.

I could also do a newer (2007+) GM ECU which allows a 6speed setup as well, but it shares some major issues with swaps like the Coyote setup does as far as cruise/AC as well.

Onward with the 4speed/LS3 we go at this time. The prices are good on the hardware ($1100 for a 100k mile Coyote with harness, $1100 for the 2wd 6R80) but the controller and such are simply not feasible without giving up full swap functionality, which is paramount on all my swaps. I am in no way, trying to build a stripped out race car. The last one was a full street car with all the creature comforts and this one, being so nice, I can't do anything but the best on the swap.

[96gt4.6]

Probably her last pic fully polished and all pretty before surgery. T-Minus 2 weeks and counting:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/20150705_201702_zps9hom04s9.jp g

[96gt4.6]

Going into the shop this weekend to get started. Finally......it's been such a long wait, I'm excited!

I will start the build thread after I get the 6.2L set and start fabrication. She's a very pretty girl, let's make her as fast as she is clean:

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/20150708_123655_zpsabx4qgnd.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/20150708_123726_zpst8xrkwfh.jp g
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/20150708_123737_zpsrsltwl7v.jp g

[Joe Walsh]

Would love to have seen someone....anyone......put a 5.0 Coyote into a Marauder.
It's the only Modular worth putting into a Marauder (except for a S/C Cobra motor.)
Oh well.....I completely understand the cost of messing with modular.

:depress:


Good luck with the pushrod 6.2L....it'll definitely have some serious N/A torque....let alone with a hairdryer strapped on it!!!

[cpe6]

I would love to see that 6.2 work....keep me posted, I would do it to,another marauder not this clean one.

[96gt4.6]

The Coyote idea really, really, upset me honestly. I still bleed Ford Blue at heart. The Coyote's are very tough, and produce just as much HP as the LS on boost and N/A to N/A if you compare apples to apples as there are so many types of LS.

After I found that 5.0/6R80E setup, it REALLY got the wheels turning at the last minute on offloading all the LS stuff and going Coyote/A6. I had about 4 hours of research into the networking and being able to make everything functional when crossbreeding the Marauder/Coyote setup. It's great the HP Tuners now has the ability to let me use a stock ECU with the Coyote/A6, but integration is the issue. AND there is one HUGE issue, no Coyote uses hydraulic power steering, and none of the older modular accessories will retro onto the Coyote due to a different front cover setup. I have found a few companies that make a power steering setup for them, but talk about some $$.

I'm sure, there are ways to do it, but the time and $$ involved would be more than I am willing to invest currently. HOWEVER.....it's not like this is the end-all solution going LS, I can say for MOST certainty, that with my attention to the falling prices of the Coyote setup now, once the aftermarket makes some solutions to said problems in my case, this car may very well end up Coyote in a few years after the LS setup.

I'm sure the LS 6.2/4L80E setup will be worth something to someone when that day comes (as it will be an ENTIRE pull out with turbo kit).

But for now, proceeding as planned. She's slated to get parked in the shop and breathe her last breath of Kansas air this Sunday. Her heart has already been sold and will be picked up by it's new owner to revive life into a Marauder that needs some love like this one did.

Build thread to be started in the next 2 weeks :)

[mad1stgen]

Do the 5.0 swap. bud. I love mine. Waiting on HP tuners to finalize some things, and it will be even more fun.

Accesories are easy. I made my own PS and Alt brackets. Motor mounts are easy. Exhaust bahhh, you'll be making custom stuff anyway.

The only thing I am missing is the cruise control. But it's a 6 speed car anyway, so it didn't get used much. If you use the f150 or mustang PCM, you could probably get that working too.

The rest of the systems including the cluster is easy to integrate.

You can make this swap as budget friendly as you want. Hell, I'll make you a sweet deal on a 600 mile 6R80 if you want ;)

To add to the fire, Department of Boost is coming out with an intercooled manifold that will allow the use of gt500 style blowers on the 5.0. Yay !

[96gt4.6]

Thanks for the info mad1.

I do see companies such as March and Vintage Air are making bracket kits. I would have to either:

1. - Make my own as you said, as I MUST retain Air Conditioning/Power Steering.

2. - Pay the $1500 for the March/Vintage kit <---Adds a LOT to the swap v swap cost calculation.

The cruise I've found a workaround for. Rostra makes a kit that ties into the APP sensor and emulates moving the pedal with no driver input to maintain speed. I have installed them here at work, pretty simply and can be integrated into the stock Marauder controls.

The rest is easy on the car, cluster/ect is no issue.

The next biggest hurdle is waiting on HP to get things ironed out. At this time, they do NOT have the PATS bypass fully functional. Meaning, I'd have no choice but to either wait it out so I can use an F150/Mustang ECU and keep the 6R80, or ditch it and go Manual trans/Ford Racing ECU/Harness kit.

A manual trans is a deal breaker for me, as well as no air conditioning.

Calculating up the cost difference, accounting for labor (more labor on the Coyote swap as I have more bracket fabrication, and a learning curve on the tuning vs. the GM tuning I already know), it's close, but still a bit more to go Ford power. But, close enough to garner some serious research and attention as of recent.

As far as blower manifolds/ect, there's a ton of stuff for LS's out there, but it's always meant to go turbo if going Ford/Chevy in my case. I have no issue fabbing up a kit for either, as both will take the same work as you had mentioned on that aspect of the swap.

I've got a Coyote out here at work that's blown up, been taking dimensions and looking over some ideas, but so far it's just not feasible due to mainly the tuning/ECU issue at this time. A quick check on HPT's forums, shows no ETA from Eric on when the junkyard pullout ECU's will be supported for PATS disable.

It can all change in an instant though! I'll have the motor removed next week, at that time, a decision will be made and final.

thanks for all the opinions/advice so far!

[mad1stgen]

The Vintage air kits are ridiculous. Let the cobra kit car guys buy those lol.

Look up Power by the hour. It's a $600 kit that allows the use of stock Marauder accessories (A/C, PS, ALT). Or make your own for about $40 ;)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8fNaIqUUNgc/VYDGn4yo2sI/AAAAAAAAEXU/xS1XdLvA8ww/s1280-Ic42/20150526_182502.jpg

You will be able to bolt up the motor mounts without any (or barely any lol) issues. The coyote is just marginally wider (head design), but not as tall at the same time.

HPT will get their stuff in gear. There is just too much money on the table for them to miss out on it.

[96gt4.6]

^ That is possibly a game changer sir. Fabulous. I will take a look see.

Much thanks!

If HPT would hurry and get the PATS issue resolved, this baby may just be a 5.0L after all.

that kit will save me from having to re-do the A/C lines for my swap as well, which is also paramount.

Your contribution on that link, is very much appreciated.

[justbob]

I can't believe the PATS is a big issue? I know our cars are old but using SCT was just a simple off tab in the tuning for me. I just figured that was an elementary thing for all PCMs anymore. Who'd a thunk?


Builder Of Badassery

[96gt4.6]

From what i'm understanding, it's still as simple as that. The FRPP Coyote swap kit has an ECU included that has the PATS disabled, and from the the HPT guys are saying over on the forum, it's all in the code. I see we now have a simple drop down box in the Ford Coyote tunes that allows you to disable it, but they are saying it's a two part process on these newer ECU's, the 2nd part is the hold up.

They have confirmed it's a go as far as a fix, but no ETA at this time.

Once that fix is released, it will be possible to use the full salvage pullouts with the 6R80 and stock ECU's. They have allowed us to read the FRPP computer finally, so I believe the fix is very close.

I have my 6.2L up for sale currently. If it sells, the Coyote is a go. I'm just going to hope they get a fix by the time i'm installed and ready, if not, i'll tackle that issue when I get there.

The game changer was the accessory kit listed above, as well as the price of the Coyote/6R80 complete pullout I found.

But, if my 6.2 doesn't sell for what i'm asking, it's still a go for the Chevy swap.

Time will tell!

[96gt4.6]

Well, what a day!

For all the Ford guys watching this, rooting things along, and those that have been supportive of even my Chevy swap plan, things just changed.

The 6.2L/80E is sold, the Coyote/6R80E is a go.

No backing out now. Let's see what challenges this presents, and what rewards it has.

Stay tuned..

[justbob]

Well, what a day!

For all the Ford guys watching this, rooting things along, and those that have been supportive of even my Chevy swap plan, things just changed.

The 6.2L/80E is sold, the Coyote/6R80E is a go.

No backing out now. Let's see what challenges this presents, and what rewards it has.

Stay tuned..


Can't wait!


Builder Of Badassery

[lifespeed]

This is very interesting news. It would be great to have a list of single-source pieces and knowledge required to make this work. It sounds promising, keep us posted!

[BigM460]

Well, what a day!

For all the Ford guys watching this, rooting things along, and those that have been supportive of even my Chevy swap plan, things just changed.

The 6.2L/80E is sold, the Coyote/6R80E is a go.

No backing out now. Let's see what challenges this presents, and what rewards it has.

Stay tuned..

Yes!!!:drool::party:

[MOTOWN]

Well, what a day!

For all the Ford guys watching this, rooting things along, and those that have been supportive of even my Chevy swap plan, things just changed.

The 6.2L/80E is sold, the Coyote/6R80E is a go.

No backing out now. Let's see what challenges this presents, and what rewards it has.

Stay tuned..

Ohhhhhhhhh dis gonna be good!:banana:

[silversnake]

Subscribing now[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Seneca]

Dang!! Can't wait to see this build!

[96gt4.6]

From my research, the Coyote seems to hold it's own against the dark side competition, let's hope the hype is real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G6qfLJYjTQ

[Joe Walsh]

Awesome!

Are you going to set up the Coyote N/A at first...... then go turbo later?

I'd love to see how well a stock 412 HP Coyote pulls a Marauder.
The Marauder would be such a sweet ride with that motor and a 6 speed auto trans.
It's what Ford should have put under the hood if it was available 12 years ago....:depress:

Can't wait to see how the project goes!


BTW: That Hellion twin turbo set-up looks so EVIL in satin black!

[96gt4.6]

The plan as of now, is get the motor set/wired and all the small hurdles overcome as far as tuning, then take a look and see where the budget is at. If i've cut into the funding too deeply just getting her installed, I will continue N/A for a bit while I prepare for phase 2 which would be the turbo setup.

I anticipate it to follow those guidelines, as it will give me the opportunity to get a handle on the tuning all motor, which is essential when going boost as mistakes get quite costly at that point.

I wouldn't rule out, that there will be an all-motor dragstrip visit on this one before going turbo.

This is as real as it gets! All the LS stuff is gone, all sold last night. I'll be ordering an ENTIRE pullout i've sourced from a 2011 F150 Monday morning. Removal of the factory 4v starts next weekend, with fabrication/installation following as time permits with my daily job and activities. I anticipate it to move fairly quickly honestly.

[8UWITH6]

This should make all of your fans from earlier in this topic very happy. :) LOL

[MMBLUE]

This should make all of your fans from earlier in this topic very happy. :) LOL

This thread is back winning!

Where is the dam like button :confused:

[Sully008]

Excellent! I will be following this one with interest. The LS swap would've been cool, but this is much cooler, IMO.

[96gt4.6]

The stock 4v took it's last breath yesterday.

Point of no return...........

5.oh/6r80 pullout on the way. Here we go!

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q651/Alan_Ledesma/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-07/20150712_150325_zps3cubtshz.jp g

[RubberCtyRauder]

I'm sure you prolly know already but the f150 coyote has differences to the mustang coyote. Intake, manifolds, the tune. I know it's kind if a moot point but maybe others here are not aware

[96gt4.6]

Correct.

From what I understand, the differences are:

Manifolds v. Shorties
Intake Camshaft
Pistons
Intake Manifold
Tune

So far, in my experience with the F150's i've tuned, there are leaps and bounds to be had power wise on the pickups. I believe, most of the power difference is in the tune, with the remainder of the hard components contributing a smaller amount.

On boost, I don't forsee the difference creating much of an issue, and the lower static CR will be an added benefit.

[96gt4.6]

The biggest issue right now, we need to find a way to get around the factory ECU's PATS system. I can't seem to find anywhere that has accomplished this less the FRPP Coyote swap kit which is only manual trans compatible.

Any help is appreciated on the research there. I have Emails in to SCT and HPT at the moment.

[lifespeed]

How about that GT350 Voodoo motor with the 180 degree crankshaft? :D

[Joe Walsh]

Correct.

From what I understand, the differences are:

Manifolds v. Shorties
Intake Camshaft
Pistons
Intake Manifold
Tune

So far, in my experience with the F150's i've tuned, there are leaps and bounds to be had power wise on the pickups. I believe, most of the power difference is in the tune, with the remainder of the hard components contributing a smaller amount.

On boost, I don't forsee the difference creating much of an issue, and the lower static CR will be an added benefit.

I was thinking about the lower CR in the F150 Coyote as well!
Also, once you put the turbo on it, the stock exhaust manifolds will be gone anyway....and the intake manifold won't matter much either.

[lifespeed]

I was thinking about the lower CR in the F150 Coyote as well!
Also, once you put the turbo on it, the stock exhaust manifolds will be gone anyway....and the intake manifold won't matter much either.

That is a common misconception, perhaps influenced by the added power of boost. But flow through the intake and exhaust (headers) does still matter with turbo/supercharged engines.

I have experienced this with turbo boat engines, and I think Motown had some dramatic improvements with a freer-flowing intake.

[justbob]

The biggest issue right now, we need to find a way to get around the factory ECU's PATS system. I can't seem to find anywhere that has accomplished this less the FRPP Coyote swap kit which is only manual trans compatible.

Any help is appreciated on the research there. I have Emails in to SCT and HPT at the moment.


I'm not a tuner by no means but I swear on mine turning off the PATS was as simple as a keyboard stroke. I've had three different guys turn it off with various tunes over the last 4-5 years. Jeff at Mo's Speedshop was the last to do mine if that helps.


Builder Of Badassery

[Zack]

2 values need to be changed to disable PATS. Easy stuff

[96gt4.6]

Zack,

So far, from what I'm finding the 2011-Up F150 ECU's use an EPATS system, unlike the older PATS system.

I've been talking with the head Ford programmer at HP Tuners about the issue, and they are unable to do it via programming at this time.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?49594-Does-HPT-support-using-a-junkyard-ECU-for-COYOTE-engine-swaps

I e-mailed SCT, whom had their tech department give me a call, and they as well stated that at this time have no solution that does not require the PCM to be disassembled and the PATS system physically disabled on the board.

From everything I've been able to find, the new EPATS system is much more complex than the older PATS systems were, it's apparently more than just coded into the software. But, maybe I'm just speaking with the wrong people on the subject......which is very possible!

I'm still going to proceed with reworking the stock harness, and installing the 6R as planned. I have a working backup plan if by the time I'm to that point, the EPATS cannot be disabled.

I'm very interested in your solution! There are a lot of guys who want to run the 6R80/Junkyard setup, but no ECU that supports it in a swap situation where the BCM and PATS transponder/key are not present.

:bows:

[Blown3.8]

Glad to see you are going with the coyote now!

On the PATS problem can you do like the remote start stuff where you leave a programmed key under the dash with the f150 switch and use the Marauder switch and key to actually start the car?

[96gt4.6]

Unfortunately it's not that easy in this instance.

Basically, what a remote start bypass does, is emulate a key in the vehicle. Most systems do this through a hidden key in the vehicle, or by physically splicing into the PATS antenna ring on the column and emulating the signal from the transponder key.

Using this type of bypass, still requires the rest of the PATS system to be in the vehicle. In my instance, that would require the Body module from the F150, as well as the transponder antenna.

At that point, I could just put the keys in there fixed to the transponder antenna and do away with the bypass system, as they would essentially do the same thing. When we turn off PATS as how Zach was describing, we hard code it off in the computer's software, so it never looks from the all clear to start signal from the BCM.

Unfortunately, at this time, due to the complexity of the EPATS system used on 2011 F150 and later, it's not that simple. SCT and HPT are working on a fix so people can use salvage setups like I am currently, but at this time there is no way to disable EPATS.

Ford offers the FRPP computer/harness for the Coyote, but it only supports a manual trans, not the 6R80 Auto.

I have a solution to my EPATS issue I believe, and am currently working with HPT's R&D team on the issue. I'll keep everyone posted when I get to the testing phase after the wiring is complete and we're ready to fire it up.

[96gt4.6]

Build thread started:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1456408#post1 456408

[mikesanto70]

C'mon lets see more pic's!!!!

[RubberCtyRauder]

C'mon lets see more pic's!!!!

Go look at the thread he linked above. Lots of pics in there. Car is done, drives, been down the strip., getting ready for turbo

[96gt4.6]

Turbo installation under way!

[cer0413]

Turbo installation under way!
Good luck man. May the force be with you.