Old Fuel Filter

[ledzilla]

So, my other car, a 2001 Buick Century, is running not so great. It seems to be suffering a loss of power. It has new plugs, wires, coil packs. I figured maybe it was a fuel problem, and decided to swap out the fuel filter. Well, I can't get the old one off. Thew fuel line screws into one side, and clips onto the other. The screw side won't come loose, and the wrench seems to be just rounding it off (the nut on the fuel line, that is -- the nut on the filter is holding strong). So, not exactly sure what to do here.

It had an evap trouble code for a long time that I haven't yet been able to resolve, so I didn't think to check the trouble codes for a little while. But I did check them again and now I have these...

http://ledzilla.us/images/Screenshot_2015-07-16-22-18-39.png

EDIT: I'm not concerned with P0442 being the cause. It was there while the car was still running normally. I only have two more thing to replace to see if that one will go away (vent solenoid, fuel pump assembly - pump and level sender are intended for replacement anyway).

[fastblackmerc]

Are you using a line wrench?

https://www.google.com/search?q=line+wrench&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CFIQsARqFQoTCJGn9py47MYCF Ql0PgoddJAAXg&biw=1680&bih=953

Spray some PB Blaster on the nut

[ledzilla]

Actually, no, I'm not. I don't have any line wrenches at all. But I do have PB Blaster... I think. I should still have some. I used it to hose down the connection for the brake line going to the front left wheel but it still never came loose.

[fastblackmerc]

Actually, no, I'm not. I don't have any line wrenches at all. But I do have PB Blaster... I think. I should still have some. I used it to hose down the connection for the brake line going to the front left wheel but it still never came loose.

Line wrenches will prevent you from rounding off the nut. Harbor Freight or most FLAPS will have a set.

[ledzilla]

Well, I do have both Harbor Freight and Sears within a couple minutes of home...

[fastblackmerc]

Harbor Freight:

Metric
http://www.harborfreight.com/5-pc-metric-double-end-flare-nut-wrench-set-68866.html

Standard
http://www.harborfreight.com/5-pc-sae-double-end-flare-nut-wrench-set-61358.html

[ledzilla]

Well, those are inexpensive, and HF is practically next door to me.

[ledzilla]

And fail. It would seem that the fuel line nut is 16mm, but the metric set goes from 15mm to 17mm. It seemed that 17mm was right, but it ended up slipping right off.

I also checked out cylinder #4. Compression was fine (150psi, text states a minimum of 100psi), but there appeared to be oil on the threads of the spark plug.

[fastblackmerc]

And fail. It would seem that the fuel line nut is 16mm, but the metric set goes from 15mm to 17mm. It seemed that 17mm was right, but it ended up slipping right off.

I also checked out cylinder #4. Compression was fine (150psi, text states a minimum of 100psi), but there appeared to be oil on the threads of the spark plug.

If it's between 15 & 17mm then it's could be a standard size. You might have rounded it off too much.

Oil on the threads probably isn't a problem. How does the end of the plug look?

[Marauderjack]

Time to break out the ole VICE GRIPS!!!;)

[Mike M]

That is definitely 16mm. I have have replaced about 300 of them at least. At this point just use a vice grip to hold it still on the stripped out 16mm nut and use a wrench on the bigger nut attached to the filter. After disconnecting the other end with the clip.

Your # 4 cylinder problem is probably a spark plug wire or a coil pack. You have to do a little diagnosing instead of guessing. All you need is a screw driver to check spark and someone to crank it.

[ledzilla]

I tried fitting US size wrenches before going at it with the 17mm, and they had a worse fit than the 17mm. Frankly, it seems like everything on this Buick is a metric size except the wheel lugs. I'm getting the feeling that I'm getting close to needing to slice and dice the fuel line to replace the filter. And that's on the side leading directly from pump.

As for the plug, it doesn't look bad, but maybe a bit more... Used?... When compared to the plug from #6.

[ledzilla]

Time to break out the ole VICE GRIPS!!!;)

Ha! If only vice grips would fit into that space.

[Mike M]

Ha! If only vice grips would fit into that space.

It's not 17mm, like I said in my previous post its 16mm.

You must unclip the other end and then remove the filter from its mount and then you will have all the room you want to use vice grips.

[ledzilla]

When I last replied, your post didn't show up, so I never saw it, and I offer apologies for seeming to ignore you. Considering that the 15mm didn't fit and the 17mm was loose, I figured it was a 16mm nut, but for the life of me I had no 16mm wrench and there weren't any, especially in the flare nut variety, available for sale nearby. The 17mm felt like it was still gripping it, though, so my mistake on that one.

I think the "nut" on the filter itself is either 25/32 or 20mm, but I don't have wrenches in either of those sizes (and I don't see any in those sizes). The closest I have is 13/16, which seems to hold pretty well. That part isn't nearly as rusty and has some strength left to it.

I have a feeling that once I remove the bracket supporting the filter it won't be put back. It's nearly entirely rust. It feels like it will disintegrate once removed. But it has to come out anyway. I was trying to disconnect the fuel line before removing the bracket, hoping for a little extra stability. Guess it's coming out, one way or another, and I'll be latching my bid ol' vice grips on that sucker. I'm just hoping my issue is the filter and not a bad FPR or clogged catalytic converter. I can get a FPR for under $40, and is just inconveniently located beneath the throttle, so it isn't that bad. But I have no resources for replacing the cat. And if I replace the cat, I have to everything from it all the way back due to the pipe welded into place after the flanges on the cat and resonator disintegrated and needed to be reconnected.

As far as #4 is concerned, when it first showed up I had already put in brand new plugs and wires (this was February during replacement of the lower intake manifold gaskets), and put in new coil packs after it showed up (April/May, can't exactly remember which month). The only thing that seemed to actually resolve it was by running some SeaFoam through the intake. The code went away, and all that remained was the P0442 code.

[ledzilla]

Yeah, that damned thing isn't coming out without taking part of, if not the entire fuel line. It's seized up real tight with rust.

However, I was chatting with my brother-in-law, and he suggested running it for a couple minutes and then seeing how much of a squirt of fuel was released by the pressure relief valve on the fuel rail. It had a strong spray that splattered all over the coolant reservoir. So, given the apparently good pressure in the fuel system, and the fact that the car immediately started without any cranking even after not having run all day, I'm guessing the fuel filter isn't the problem, or any other part of the fuel delivery system.

Sooo.. I'm left with what? Bad MAF sensor or clogged catalytic converter?

[Turbov6Bryan]

If you can't get it loose, I've had to use a torch on a few fuel filters that were rusted up

Yes I know. Very dangerous

But if there's no fuel on the outside, it will take 30 seconds of warming it up with a small hand held torch

If the wrenches are too big, use a red rag and fold over the nut till it gets tight, this will keep the nut from rounding off in the future

Or just take it to someone qualified to get it off without cutting the line

[fastblackmerc]

If you can't get it loose, I've had to use a torch on a few fuel filters that were rusted up

Yes I know. Very dangerous

But if there's no fuel on the outside, it will take 30 seconds of warming it up with a small hand held torch

If the wrenches are too big, use a red rag and fold over the nut till it gets tight, this will keep the nut from rounding off in the future

Or just take it to someone qualified to get it off without cutting the line

Worst information I've EVER heard!!!!

With doing stuff like that how did you ever get to be 39?

[Marauderman]

With doing stuff like that how did you ever get to be 39?

I have to say --That is funny---gotta remember to use that one cause I have needed such a comment now and then but couldn't come up with the right aspect for the time---got it now---way cool!! carry on!

[ledzilla]

Yeah, no, I'm not using a torch for this. While there's a good chance of igniting the fuel, I'd most likely either set the car on fire in some fashion not related to gasoline (it nearly happened once already with my old '88 Town Car) or I'd severely burn myself (I have a strange habit of grabbing extremely hot objects which I know are extremely hot). Plus, I don't have a torch.

But seriously, I have been given cause to believe that the effort is no longer worth it, and I should look elsewhere to resolve the trouble codes and loss of power in my Buick. I'm currently inclined to believe that the problem is a clogged cat. In and of itself not a serious issue, but earlier this year I had a pipe welded to the exhaust to connect the cat and resonator because the flange rotted away. I have to see if I can get a cat installed and have that pipe or a new one welded in as I don't want to replace everything else as well (it's still in good shape, even though it's a 15yo outdoor -kept daily driver).

[Turbov6Bryan]

Worst information I've EVER heard!!!!

With doing stuff like that how did you ever get to be 39?


I've been a heavy equipment Mechanic for 20 years working on loaders dozers backhoes booms forklifts tractors you name it.

I simply suggested the easy way to get rid of the rust so the filter could be removed, best way to loosen rust is with FIRE!!! :flamer: :D

I've done it many times and there's no fumes to catch fire, it's not like fuel boils and catches fire in 30 seconds with a mini torch lol

peace

[Mike M]

Yeah, no, I'm not using a torch for this. While there's a good chance of igniting the fuel, I'd most likely either set the car on fire in some fashion not related to gasoline (it nearly happened once already with my old '88 Town Car) or I'd severely burn myself (I have a strange habit of grabbing extremely hot objects which I know are extremely hot). Plus, I don't have a torch.

But seriously, I have been given cause to believe that the effort is no longer worth it, and I should look elsewhere to resolve the trouble codes and loss of power in my Buick. I'm currently inclined to believe that the problem is a clogged cat. In and of itself not a serious issue, but earlier this year I had a pipe welded to the exhaust to connect the cat and resonator because the flange rotted away. I have to see if I can get a cat installed and have that pipe or a new one welded in as I don't want to replace everything else as well (it's still in good shape, even though it's a 15yo outdoor -kept daily driver).

Ok, the fuel test you did is not conclusive at all. All it tells you is that the pump can still pump fuel. You need to check it with a fuel pump pressure gauge.

If you think it's a cat that is clogged (very likely) just remove the front O2 sensor and go around the block once. If the power is back to normal, then you confirmed a clogged cat.
By removing the O2, the opening will let enough exhaust escape for near normal operation.

[ledzilla]

If you think it's a cat that is clogged (very likely) just remove the front O2 sensor and go around the block once. If the power is back to normal, then you confirmed a clogged cat.
By removing the O2, the opening will let enough exhaust escape for near normal operation.

Thank you. I was wondering exactly how to make such a determination, and forgot to ask. If I had taken my MM to work today instead of the Buick, I'd do it when I got home, but it might be a couple days now before I have the opportunity to check.

[8UWITH6]

Worst information I've EVER heard!!!!

With doing stuff like that how did you ever get to be 39?

I think he was saying the best thing for that vehicle is to light it on fire........... maybe or maybe not just speculating. Otherwise, I have seen it, and it works. Safe, no. Gets the job done........ yes. BTW, your problem is not the fuel filter. It never is. Good luck fixing the car OP.

[ledzilla]

Yeah, that's why I'm giving up on the filter. It has become less than worth the effort.

I brought it in to an exhaust shop I've used previously and trust, and they pressure tested the cat. It's flowing well. So it brings me essentially to some kind of fuel/air/spark issue.

I've started noticing that it really drags until the RPMs kick up a bit and then it starts to really go, albeit not go nearly as well as it should. This is really starting to remind me of when I had a bad COP in my marauder. It behaved somewhat similarly. I'm not inclined to believe it is a spark issue mainly because it has all new coil packs, wires, and plugs. The air filter is new, and last one was barely dirty when it was replaced, so I don't think it's an air issue. It starts immediately without any trouble every time, so I don't know what that says about anything.

[8UWITH6]

Which engine does it have? 3.1 or 3.8? Have you performed a compression test? Have you tried swapping injectors around to see if the misfire moves? Evap codes are not causing your problem either. Unless your purge valve is stuck open causing an extended crank start. But that wont cause a misfire code.

[ledzilla]

It has the 3.1L. Yes, I've done a compression test. I had conflicting info on which cyllnder was #4, so I essentially tested #3 & #4. Manual on hand said minimum 100psi. One tested to be 150psi, the other 110psi (I slighty goofed that one up, but it still supposedly had sufficient compression so I didn't test again). No, I have not tried swapping injectors. The fuel rails are beneath the plenum and haven't been in the mood to remove it to get to them. I doubt the purge valve is a problem as I recently replaced it. I was cracked apart, I believe as a result of the work done to replace the manifold gaskets.

[fastblackmerc]

It has the 3.1L. Yes, I've done a compression test. I had conflicting info on which cyllnder was #4, so I essentially tested #3 & #4. Manual on hand said minimum 100psi. One tested to be 150psi, the other 110psi (I slighty goofed that one up, but it still supposedly had sufficient compression so I didn't test again). No, I have not tried swapping injectors. The fuel rails are beneath the plenum and haven't been in the mood to remove it to get to them. I doubt the purge valve is a problem as I recently replaced it. I was cracked apart, I believe as a result of the work done to replace the manifold gaskets.

You should test all the cylinders.

[ledzilla]

If I'm done with the brake and suspension work I started on it before it gets too late in the day, I'll probably test all of the cylinders tonight. The new FPR I ordered seems to arrived, as well, so I guess we'll see if there's any difference after I finish putting the car back together.

I suppose there remains the possibility that even though the plugs and wires are new, a bad one could have been installed, yeah?

[ledzilla]

Well, I never got to testing compression. I spent until late on Friday night trying to finish off the brakes and suspension. The replacement of the front sway bar consumed much more time than anticipated.

There's thinking now that the problem is most likely a faulty injector. I'm trying a bottle of Lucas I had sitting around before anything else, seeing if a cleaning will help. If not, then I'll be pulling the plenum and swapping some injectors, see if the trouble code changes. But based on my experience with replacing a single component that has multiple cylinder applications (coils, plugs, etc), if I have to replace one, and only replace one, then it probably won't be long until I have to replace another. And I'm not looking forward to dropping the coin on a full set of new injectors.

As for the FPR, I couldn't remove the old one. It has a single Torx screw that started stripping as soon as I attempted to unscrew it. Thought at first it was because the driver I was using was crap (a bit chewed up from replacing the coil packs in a 1989 Riviera), but then I used a better one to the same effect. Looks like I'll be busting out the Dremel to cut the head in order to use a standard screwdriver.

Either way, I won't be doing much until next week. Need a break from wrenching on that car. It's starting to get frustrating.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Pull your coil pack and module off run it down to O'Reilly's and test the module common problem on Buick I know I own six

[Turbov6Bryan]

You said 5.2 ohms

With key on vs key off?

[RF Overlord]

You said 5.2 ohms

With key on vs key off?I hope you aren't trying to test ohms with power on...

[Blk Mamba]

16mm, = .03937 x 16 = .62992, so a 5/8 line wrench would work if the nut isn't rusted to bad. I've had to slide the tip of a common screwdriver between the nut and side of a non fitting wrench before to loosen nuts, works sometimes

[Turbov6Bryan]

I hope you aren't trying to test ohms with power on...

On waste spark DIS key on not running, powering up the module.

It's been awhile since I use a external module and coil tester, this is mine http://youtu.be/N3RcW9BBvpc

[ledzilla]

You said 5.2 ohms

With key on vs key off?

Only with the key off thus far.


16mm, = .03937 x 16 = .62992, so a 5/8 line wrench would work if the nut isn't rusted to bad. I've had to slide the tip of a common screwdriver between the nut and side of a non fitting wrench before to loosen nuts, works sometimes

I've actually given up on trying to get that filter off. I don't have any trouble with gripping the nut on the filter, but the nut on the line is just in too poor a condition. I'd have to perform something drastic to either break it loose of cut it off and run some new line. I'm not willing to do either. Although I saw a product for freezing the nut which I'm curious to try, because my girlfriend got a similar idea. If it gets cold enough and contracts enough, it might break the rust loose with my having to worry about some strange unfortunate thing happening if I used a torch to heat and expand it.

[ledzilla]

Ok, took a break from work (needed it, too) and went out to test with the power on, not running, since I happened to leave my multimeter in the car. Here are the results:

5-2: 5.86
3-6: 5.97
4-1: 5.86

[ledzilla]

Ok, now that I'm back out of the hospital...

I know this car needs a new EGR valve and it's still throwing an evap emissions code, with the vent solenoid being one of the few remaining pieces of that system left to replace. I will be swapping those pieces out tonight. Does it seem possible that failure of those parts could be causing this issue? There was someone on a Buick forum that mentioned evap emissions problems can do this.

[ledzilla]

Put in the new EGR valve on Friday, seems to be running even worse now.

[8UWITH6]

Find a trusted repair shop to diagnose your issue. Might be worth the 100 bux vs throwing a gwadzillion parts at it.

[ledzilla]

Yeah, I was getting sick of figuring out what the hell was the problem and took it in. Turns out it actually was a bad injector, so I'm having that replaced because I just don't have the time right now to spend on doing the work myself. Also found out that the EGR tube is bad and not sealing, and the PCM has gone wonky, which is why the RPMs are strangely limited. It's also throwing a trouble code for something that isn't actually broken, which I have spent about $100 on parts trying to fix. They think having it reprogrammed should fix it. So I'm looking at about $700 in repairs, but I'm leaving the PCM for later. I need the injector fixed ASAP so the car is actually drivable.

[ledzilla]

Ok, so final situation...

Had the injector replaced, car still ran like crap. Went back to have them do the PCM, figuring that was causing more trouble than the bad injector. Guys tells me it won't help. The cat is clogged. I just wish I understood why I had to come back for someone to tell me that, why they didn't inform me of it when I came to pick up the car.

Anyway, go to my exhaust guys. They put in a universal cat and welded it to the existing pipe (since I had the cat welded to the resonator due to a disintegrated flange) for $270 and had it done in about 30-45 minutes. Frigging car now runs like brand new. Could have saved so much time, effort, and frustration had the initial pressure testing on the cat showed it to be clogged.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Glad u fixed it

Thought all this time you were saying it was missing out.... Big diff I n missing out and low on power

Usually cat plugs then headers start leaking, exhaust joints ect

Better than a car payment

[ledzilla]

I've had misfires in the past, and the behavior was damned similar. I mean, the damned thing was throwing a misfire code and the car was running like it had a bad misfire.

After getting a little more educated on clogged cats (which I had never encountered before), some of the evidence made sense. Like, with the excess back pressure, the engine stays hotter, noticeable when going down the highway and the engine wasn't running nearly as cool as it should with such constant airflow. Plus I wasted time and money on replacing the tensioner pulley. Plus because of it there was exhaust leaking and whistling out somewhere, making is sound like a bad pulley. Funny thing was that after replacing the pulley the sound changed. Go figure.