VW busted for 'clean' diesels

[Joe Walsh]

VW just got nailed for using some interesting and inventive software in their diesel car's computers:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/21/vw-rocked-by-emissions-scandal-as-prosecutors-come-calling/?intcmp=hpbt3

:hmmm:

I wonder if someone could install something like that for Maryland's B.S. smog testing program?

[LIGHTNIN1]

Wish I had thought of that myself. Now they can sell the software on the blackmarket and Ebay for car owners themselves. As slow as the government is they should have been able to fool them longer, kept holding meetings and leading them in all kinds of directions unrelated to the subject matter. Kept them talking about GLOBAL WARMING. They just did not have the right set of sheisty lawyers.:D

[510paesan]

I hope their fix isn't to detune something... sounds like a class action suit coming their way to a court near them

[WhatsUpDOHC]

I always wondered how they got their diesels to run so clean.

[Joe Walsh]

I wonder if Bill Belichick or Tom Brady once worked for VW ? :hmmm:

[FordNut]

When they have a recall and "upgrade" the program the cars will lose all their power.

[71cyclone]

When they have a recall and "upgrade" the program the cars will lose all their power.
The biggest problems these diesels have is beig able to "CLEAN BURN" at Idle,, Detroit Diesel powered [MCI -Preveost - etc ] will shut down after 10 minutes of operation at idle in neutral. and kenworth and peterbilt are having a fit with the DEF systems . The V Dub boys figured out a temp fix and got caught.:flamer:

[Joe Walsh]

If they have to retrofit 'piss' tanks onto ALL those the little diesels, VW will go belly up!

[Mr. Man]

If they have to retrofit 'piss' tanks onto ALL those the little diesels, VW will go belly up!
Is Europe having the same issue? VW sells more gas cars here so if it's just retrofitting diesels in the US it won't cost them much.

[Joe Walsh]

Is Europe having the same issue? VW sells more gas cars here so if it's just retrofitting diesels in the US it won't cost them much.

It may not be cheap, no matter how you look at it:

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/

Plus add in the EPA's potential fines of $37,000 per 482,000+ cars sold....:eek:

How VW got busted:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/

[RubberCtyRauder]

I read VW already setting aside $7billion and fines could reach $18billion. I dunno

[LIGHTNIN1]

Maybe they can get Obama to bail them out as he did GM and Chrysler. And promise not to do it again.:beer:

[MGDriver]

Funny how this works...

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12009630_975434825854323_60952 7591830316750_n.jpg?oh=e1c129f 381aa26cb7e377e45e8b4c6b6&oe=56A05222

[BAD MERC]

Hmmm, who the hell wants a VW anyway?

[Joe Walsh]

OH BOY.... is VW screwed!

Aside from the EPA looking for blood....and BILLIONS.

There are now multiple class action lawsuits by VW TDI owners who will now face the prospect of having their diesels retuned for proper emissions;
resulting in lower performance AND lower MPG.

AND, most likely.... the addition of a urea (piss) tank/system!

If owners choose to ignore the recall (which I would if I owned a TDI)
the EPA will come looking for them because the EPA KNOWS that they are polluting at a rate 20 - 40 times what was claimed by VW!

I still cannot believe that VW was dumb enough to knowingly install cheat software into millions of diesel engines and then hope that no one would ever find out!

VW's CEO resigned today and is probably heading for a remote tropical island..... along with millions in (now substantially reduced) stock options.

More reading if you are interested:

http://jalopnik.com/what-should-i-do-if-im-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-1732101892


.

[chief455]

I still cannot believe that VW was dumb enough to knowingly install cheat software into millions of diesel engines and not have the highest proper officials paid off!

or that ^^

[ace2184]

For some reason I thought the newer TDI's had DEF tanks. I thought all newer (2014?) diesels had to have DEF. Maybe it's just for trucks.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Yeah they should have treated the EPA officials to some of the same women and wine parties the FBI have been having. The cars might have been out of warranty before any one "CAUGHT ON." Now the owners will have to take a loss and trade for a used FIAT.

[Joe Walsh]

I still cannot believe that VW was dumb enough to knowingly install cheat software into millions of diesel engines and not have the highest proper officials paid off!

or that ^^

LOL!

Yep....that IS Rule #1 when dealing with government officals!

[N40GL]

I'll jump in here (in the deep end, I think) since my DD is a diesel VW. There's quite a lively discussion over on TDIClub.com, if you want to get into the weeds as much as (some of) us VW owners.

From what I've learned, this affects every 4-cylinder VW that uses the TDI EA 189 engine and that does not have a urea dispenser integrated into the exhaust. That means Passats, Golfs, Tiguans, Audi A4s. etc. Since the diesel engine management system of VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all use technology licensed from Mercedes, they are all under the gun as well. From what I've read, the BMW X3 also failed the test itself (when driven back to back with the VW) and put out even more emissions than the VWs, which is sort of pointing the finger at the engine management technology.

By way of comparison, the Dodge Ram diesel pickup puts out (according to what I've read) about 100x the emissions as the VW or the BMW, but apparently Dodge "bought credits" from the EPA and is therefore untouchable. (Is there a 'credit store' somewhere?)

As you might expect, all German diesels are now undergoing testing, including the 3.0 TDI V-6 in my Touareg. So far, nothing has been discovered, but its probably way too early for the tests to have been completed. My car runs through urea and needs a refill every 10K miles, but I don't know if that means anything.

All the 2016 VW 4-cylinder diesels at the ports are awaiting EPA certification, even though the last year for the engine was 2014, and all have urea systems installed. VW seems to have removed any reference to diesels on any of its web sites worldwide, even the V-6s. They issued a "stop sale" on all existing 4-cylinder diesel inventory at the dealers, and have waived the sales quotas for the next 6 months. You can read the web for all the executives that have been fired.

There is an interesting article that just popped up today about VW's Germany-based engineers coming to the US to tweak cars to pass emissions testing, using the VW facility in Westlake Village, CA for lab work. Apparently the USA engineers weren't allowed to participate. After the tweaking, surprise (!), they passed the tests.

Most of us Touareg owners are wondering what this will do to our resale value (or, more precisely, how much effect it will have on resale value or value at the end of a lease), since if our engines are clean, we have devaluation by association. Like Audis in the 'unintended acceleration' debacle, even though that was proven to have been manufactured by 60 Minutes many years after the fact.

For me, well, the best choice is to drive it until I have to park it. Then I'll drive the MM. But I am awaiting the results of the testing of the 6-cylinder TDI engine to see whether I have any worries or not.

And I am just baffled at how something like this could ever squeak through planning and execution at any company, let alone VW. My guess is, some engineer in the bowels of engine development in Germany said "hey, boss, I've got a great idea that will improve performance and still allow us to pass testing" (except he said it in German) and his boss said "go ahead" and forgot about it. Now, as Yogi Berra (RIP) once said, "the cows come home to roost."

[chief455]

^that sucks at so many levels.
The polution footprint of all questioned VW diesels is probably less than the crap we put into the air on computers, using electricity, typing about it.
Auto emissions testing and ratings is and has been a joke, not funny either.

[Zack]

All of this is completely ridiculous. Leave them alone and make them correct it for the new model year.

Fun Fact: A good sized forest fire puts out more toxic emissions than all of the vehicles in the world combined.
Its all about money.

[L.Mark]

All of this is completely ridiculous. Leave them alone and make them correct it for the new model year.

Fun Fact: A good sized forest fire puts out more toxic emissions than all of the vehicles in the world combined.
Its all about money.

You mean the one that is burning now...

[MMBLUE]

A TDI owner myself (wife's DD) and have owned 6 total VW diesels first one a 83 rabbit turbo diesel, who cares like Zack said. A forest fire emotes more pollution. It's all about $$$$$$

83 Rabbit turbo diesel
85 Golf diesel (non turbo)
91 Jetta eco diesel
88 Jetta TDI
01 Jetta TDI
12 Jetta TDI

[Joe Walsh]

All of this is completely ridiculous. Leave them alone and make them correct it for the new model year.

Fun Fact: A good sized forest fire puts out more toxic emissions than all of the vehicles in the world combined.
Its all about money.


A TDI owner myself (wife's DD) and have owned 6 total VW diesels first one a 83 rabbit turbo diesel, who cares like Zack said. A forest fire emotes more pollution.
It's all about $$$$$$


Oh absolutely!

Its all about the money ....$$$$$$$.....and government control.

I can't tell you how many 'rolling smudge pot' diesel trucks I get caught behind every week.
Especially the heavily modified turbo diesel pick-ups that belch HUGE clouds of black smoke as they accelerate away from every stop.
They are dumping more crap into the air than every TDI within a 1000 mile radius.

[Bluerauder]

A forest fire emotes more pollution.


Emotes more pollution ?? How do you feel about that ?

[chief455]

Emotes more pollution ?? How do you feel about that ?
It makes me want to....:bigcry:

[MMBLUE]

Emotes more pollution ?? How do you feel about that ?

Truly you're not asking me a serious question :confused:

Just ONE urban old building (Mill, manufacturing or the like) in downtown (fill in the blank), has more toxins and pollution entering the air more than every TDI ever sold.

Has anyone been to a country in the middle east or Asia ? ZERO, ZILCH, ZIPPO, NADA, NULL, NOTHING for emissions standards. Asia/China's smog cloud is testament.

[kernie]

Truly you're not asking me a serious question :confused:

Just ONE urban old building (Mill, manufacturing or the like) in downtown (fill in the blank), has more toxins and pollution entering the air more than every TDI ever sold.

Has anyone been to a country in the middle east or Asia ? ZERO, ZILCH, ZIPPO, NADA, NULL, NOTHING for emissions standards. Asia/China's smog cloud is testament.


Wikipedia is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emote




Lol.

[MMBLUE]

Wikipedia is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emote




Lol.
Please let me clarify, spew out, spill out into the air.

You're right I forgot Charlie is the spelling/definition police.

Well.... You know what I meant.

[Bruce Wayne]

Shame on der volkswagon,

[GoldPanther]

When customers get the recall notification and after they get their ride retuned they will drive off of the dealer with an underpowered 4 cylinder diesel. sad!

[1Marauder]

Think about this... How Many 5 year or newer diesel VWs are there in US?

Then how many in the world?

If each of the is spewing 40 times the pollution (nitrogen?) than they claimed, that is a big big number. And no doubt quantifiable.

Understanding all of the unintended pollution (Forrest fires etc) can pollute more.... And not conflating the two, this is a ginormous affront, and an international scandal of epic proportions.

While I am not for big government, I am for our government Cracking down on multi-transnational companies and keeping them from screwing over, lying, cheating, purposely defrauding our consumers, and PROFITING EMENSLY when doing so.

My brother is socially conscious (easy here, I own two Marauders!), and bought the "clean diesel" a week before the scandal broke.

I told him to drive it back and demand his money back. He is screwed either way.

Right above... shame on vw.

They should have to buy back every car for top dollar from each person who wNts to sell.

[1Marauder]

EST 482,000 VW's vehicles in US with this configuration, 11,000,000 VW's worldwide with this configuration.

Derived from Sacramento BEE article today.

Note: As with Lake mead water level, I may be off by a factor of 10 - HA!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Joe Walsh]

Seems it was just a handful of rogue VW engineers....maybe ex-hackers, that did all this:


http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-ceo-michael-horn-individuals-responsible-defeat-devices?utm_source=DailyDrive2 0151012&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


VW has lots or re-engineering and de-tuning to do:

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-diesel-emissions-fix-may-require-2-solutions

.

[chief455]

Seems it was just a handful of rogue VW engineers....maybe ex-hackers, that did all this:


http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-ceo-michael-horn-individuals-responsible-defeat-devices?utm_source=DailyDrive2 0151012&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


VW has lots or re-engineering and de-tuning to do:

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-diesel-emissions-fix-may-require-2-solutions

.
Seems the gov't isn't buying that story though.....

[Mr. Man]

Seems the gov't isn't buying that story though.....
I heard the EPA Christmas party fund was dramatically cut this year so I suspect the fines will need to be heavy to pay for next years blow-out party. :D

[Joe Walsh]

I heard the EPA Christmas party fund was dramatically cut this year so I suspect the fines will need to be heavy to pay for next years blow-out party. :D

Isn't that the truth!.....:rolleyes:

Plus they will all get new office furniture, new top-of-the line computers, and year end bonuses for doing such a splendid job!

I've spent enough time in government offices down in DC. (not as an employee)..... to know that parties are eagerly planned and anticipated!
Getting any real or meaningful work done is frowned upon.....you make everyone else in the office look bad!

[Mr. Man]

Isn't that the truth!.....:rolleyes:


I've spent enough time in government offices down in DC. (not as an employee).....
Yeah, I hear you've got your own seat on the DHS transport bus :D :P ;)

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah, I hear you've got your own seat on the DHS transport bus :D :P ;)

Yep....front row!

and it's a short bus.

[MMBLUE]

I got my " I'm sorry what we did " letter from VW today. Damage control. They say that there were a few engineers that went rouge and it doesn't represent our company.

[Joe Walsh]

"And the beat goes on....."

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/diesel-scandal-spreads-audi-porsche-and-volkswagen-30-liter-engines?utm_source=DailyDrive2 0151103&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=arrows-top&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive

.

[1Marauder]

There was... Is... NO QUESTION the second shoe was going to drop on the big P and on Audi....

Wow!

[N40GL]

I think the pants are what's dropped. If you are following the thread over on ClubTouareg.com (or TDIClub.com - much, much longer), every single car VW has sold since 2013 (gas and diesel) is accused of having a defeat device present in the software.

With respect to TDI, the 2014 Touareg (my DD) is said to have a defeat device, but not the 2013, 2015 or 2016; which use the same Hungarian engine and Bosch/Mercedes software. That's left a lot of us scratching their heads.

[N40GL]

Interesting note about the engine/software/standards from the other site:


"... question about M-B and BMW is: They haven't been subjected to these same tests yet. The EPA qualification test requirements were NEVER written to be applied to 'off the line' vehicles. In effect the EPA is covering themselves for not requiring that everything be tested all the time. In effect, by testing production vehicles, EPA/CARB is adding new requirements for which there are no standards or limits on emission allowables. To say, for example, the NOx is 9 times the limit means that there must be a limit in the first place for the test procedure described. VW nor any other manufacturer can possible build cars, gas or diesel, to meet a standard which does not exist for the test conditions which have not been specified. ..."

[Joe Walsh]

At this point VW should just play Ned Beatty....


"drop them pants" and gnaw the log!


http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/volkswagen-reveals-800000-cars-could-advertise-false-co2-levels?utm_source=DailyDrive20 151106&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


.............................. .... :shake:

[chief455]

It truly breaks my heart this country would empower a government that will cripple automakers, rippling into the economy, over an EPA b.s. scandal that would probably not kill one single tree. :shake:

[Joe Walsh]

$1,000 is a nice start*....but I don't think that it will offset the lost resale value of the TDI vehicles due to the scandal.


http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/volkswagen-offers-500-gift-card-goodwill-package-diesel-owners?utm_source=DailyDrive20 151110&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive


* (Like all car manufacturer recall remedies half/$500 must be spent at the VW dealer...:rolleyes: )

.

[N40GL]

VW diesel emissions investigation widened to include other brands | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/11/vw-emissions-investigation-widened-bmw-mercedes-ford)


Diesel car brands being investigated by KBA

BMW: 3 Series, 5 Series
Mini Daimler Mercedes: C-Class, CLS, Sprinter, V-Class, Daimler Smart Fortwo
Fiat Chrysler: Alfa Romeo Guilietta, Panda, Ducato, Jeep Cherokee
Ford: Focus, C-Max
Geely: Volvo V60
GM Opel: Astra, Insignia, Zafira
GM: Chevrolet Cruze
Honda: Honda HR-V
Hyundai: iX35, i20
Jaguar Land Rover: Land Rover Evoque
Mazda: Mazda 6
Mitsubishi: ASX
Nissan: Navara
Peugeot: Peugeot 308
Renault: Dacia, Kadjar
Toyota: Auris
VW: Golf, Beetle, Passat, Touran, Touareg, Golf Sportsvan, Polo, Crafter, Amarok; Audi A6, A3; Porsche Macan

Also: apparently what VW did was legal in Yurrip. Emissions law there allows a car manufacturer to create a special mode for emissions testing only. It was pointed out as a loophole several years ago and hotly debated, but never closed.