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Thread: Some More Marauder Dyno Stuff...

  1. #16
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    Good information Lidio, it's ashame the Vortec wasn't running as it should.

    There are continuing references to "street", this concerns me. My N/A MM has more than enough torque to do anything that is required on the street.

    With street racing and agressive driving being the number one killer, more than DWI, I hope people are saving it for the track, particularly those that have increased the RWHP by 150+ and who are still running on stock brakes.
    1/4 Mile Time 11.542 @ 121.19 MPH
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  2. #17
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    Maraudernkc, if I remember right your kit on 2 first time pulls made 364 tq and 397 hp, and this at the very beginning of the test and tune process. I'm interested to see your numbers on the 28th after the kit has been developing. It seems to me the centrifugal is the best daily driver. I think you posted that your car now smokes the tires from a standstill. If that is true then it appears that the Procharger Kit makes plenty of low end TQ too(with more to come hopefully at the next tune). So how much low end TQ is needed if your going to just sit there and burn all the rubber off the tires anyway? Is it beneficial to save some tq a little later? Although the comparison data is great, how come this was not done a significant amount of time ago as the Vortech kit has been available as well. The only new factor is that your kit is shortly due for a much better cost to hp ratio with easier and less expensive installation, not to mention the great results so far.

    Maraudernkc, a couple of questions about your kit.

    1. Is it smoking the tires from a standstill and launching much faster than stock?

    2. Although your kit has not been on a car thats been to a track, how would you describe your accelleration now from hitting it at different speeds?

    3. Are you accellerating to speeds up in the holy crap range before you brake but have a lot more on tap?

    4. Your impressions from stock vs. blown.

    5. Driveability: At normal driving can you tell the car is blown, or can you only tell when you punch it, not affecting the cars use as a daily driver?

    6. If the car has great driveability, and performs when the blower kicks in, do you feel the car will have all the HP and low end TQ a car enthusiast will ever need driving his/her MM around on the street? (This question does not apply to track results where the fastest time on the planet is sought).

    7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.
    Empty Garage, but Fat bank account

  3. #18
    TripleTransAm Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by tmac1337
    7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.

    This only occurs at WOT, by the way, so it's not like 364 days of daily driving (1 day at the track ) will mean 364 days of constant 6 psi. Just to put it into perspective, although I imagine part-throttle boost will probably be higher with the Eaton at those lower RPMs. In any case, high boost at high RPM is probably fairly abusive to stock internals as well. Either way, you're producing way more power than stock.

  4. #19
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    Response form Jerry Barnes

    Lidio,

    Great job! This kind of data is always very helpful for people wanting to understand how to modify their cars and what approach to take. As always your approach and professionalism is second to none! I hope everyone appreciates the efforts you put in to help understand the value of each type of modification and its subsequent bottom line impact on the vehicles performance.

    You Da Man!

    Jerry


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleTransAm
    In any case, it just sounds like two different but equally tasty flavours of MM fun: awesome and fabulous.
    Exactly! either way is great.
    Thanks to Darrin @ BC Automotive:
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  6. #21
    TechHeavy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Barnes
    Lidio,

    Great job! This kind of data is always very helpful for people wanting to understand how to modify their cars and what approach to take. As always your approach and professionalism is second to none! I hope everyone appreciates the efforts you put in to help understand the value of each type of modification and its subsequent bottom line impact on the vehicles performance.

    You Da Man!

    Jerry
    Here, here! Like Mike said before me, I know have a thread to send friends with blower questions. Great information! You rock.

  7. #22
    MikesMerc Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by tmac1337
    After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse?
    Nope.

    When the throttle is closed enough to create a vacuum in the intake (pretty much anything less than a half a pedal) the boost is "by-passed" internally within the eaton blower and the motor sees zero boost.

    Opening up the throttle plate eliminates the intake vacuum, closes the by-pass, and only then intorduces boost to the motor.

    Even better with the roots blower, its easy to modulate the boost and power your making. With 6 psi of boost on tap, you can deliver none, some, or all of it depending on how much you choose to give it.

    There is absolutely nothing aggressive about the power unless you want it to be.


    Furthermore, saying that you can have "too much power" down low is just silly in a 4500lb car. Unless you are giving up tons of TQ on the top end where the motor completely falls over (like a diesel motor does) there is absolutely no reason to not want the power down low. LOL....if traction is the issue, then just address the traction issue Better yet, there is never a need to give it any more gas than you want to anyway. Like I said, the power is easily modulated with your foot. But, that's all moot anyway. With a 4500lb car, you need all the down low TQ you can get.


    Quote Originally Posted by sailsmen
    There are continuing references to "street", this concerns me.
    As far as referring to "street" driving, that is exactly what is being referred to...street driving. That's actually the beauty of having the power down low. There is no need to rev the motor up to get the power. No need to break any speed limits. The "push in the back" torque feels great at low speeds and low rpms. Its the "big block" feeling. If you don't get that, well, I'm not gonna bother explaining

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lidio
    Here it is…

    This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.



    Thanks
    Bingo... As Rick said, the results were as expected. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do all this, Lidio. And, thanks for re-affirming my choice.
    2003 Marauder 300A
    Trilogy Supercharger Serial #0054
    Installed by Carfixer 10/16/2004

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  9. #24
    MikesMerc Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lidio
    Here it is…

    This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
    Quote Originally Posted by tallboy
    Bingo... As Rick said, the results were as expected.
    LOL...yeah its time for me to retire from this thread. I'm sure there will still be a few more folks who are uncomfortable with the dyno results that will come along and try to put some kind of "spin" on it all. But, the results speak for themselves.

    Time to split

  10. #25
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    Right behind ya...
    2003 Marauder 300A
    Trilogy Supercharger Serial #0054
    Installed by Carfixer 10/16/2004

    Tallboy's Garage

  11. #26
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    Jimmy crack corn......
    Last edited by tmac1337; 12-20-2004 at 07:06 PM.
    Empty Garage, but Fat bank account

  12. #27
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    Tmac
    Quote Originally Posted by tmac1337
    Maraudernkc, if I remember right your kit on 2 first time pulls made 364 tq and 397 hp, and this at the very beginning of the test and tune process. I'm interested to see your numbers on the 28th after the kit has been developing. It seems to me the centrifugal is the best daily driver. I think you posted that your car now smokes the tires from a standstill. If that is true then it appears that the Procharger Kit makes plenty of low end TQ too(with more to come hopefully at the next tune). So how much low end TQ is needed if your going to just sit there and burn all the rubber off the tires anyway? Is it beneficial to save some tq a little later? Although the comparison data is great, how come this was not done a significant amount of time ago as the Vortech kit has been available as well. The only new factor is that your kit is shortly due for a much better cost to hp ratio with easier and less expensive installation, not to mention the great results so far.

    Maraudernkc, a couple of questions about your kit.

    1. Is it smoking the tires from a standstill and launching much faster than stock? Yes you can light then up however I have not measured how far.

    2. Although your kit has not been on a car thats been to a track, how would you describe your accelleration now from hitting it at different speeds?It's not the same car.

    3. Are you accellerating to speeds up in the holy crap range before you brake but have a lot more on tap?I am upgrading my brakes very soon.

    4. Your impressions from stock vs. blown.I just bought another car because this thing is so much fun that I want to keep it perfect and keep it for along time.

    5. Driveability: At normal driving can you tell the car is blown, or can you only tell when you punch it, not affecting the cars use as a daily driver?It feels a little diffrent but it has 150 more RWHP most of the diffrence is the neck snapping 1-2 shift. You can't feel the blower until you unleash the boost.

    6. If the car has great driveability, and performs when the blower kicks in, do you feel the car will have all the HP and low end TQ a car enthusiast will ever need driving his/her MM around on the street? (This question does not apply to track results where the fastest time on the planet is sought).I just sold my 2005 GRand Prix GTP which was supercharged by an Eaton Roots blower and they run well. I would have to say the Eaton would probably do the longer burnout. Yes a centrifical blower has enoughf low end for me but maybe not for the next person.

    7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.
    The roots blower is positive displacement blower and produces much more boost down low but also will have a higher diffirential tempature at the intake which means that you have to back out timming. The cooler the air comming into the motor the more timing you can run which=HP

    As always it comes down to Roots vs. Centrifical.

    You need to factor in what you want and what you want to spend. There is alot of good information here on this site and I don't condone anyone who has a roots blower. If you have a MM at it's blown let's go have some fun

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by maraudernkc
    Lidio, First I would like to thank you for all your time on these Dyno numbers for all the members. I am doing my Dyno run with the ProCharger kit on Dec. 28th and just want to make sure that I run my testing like you have. I want everyone to have a Dyno to Dyno compaison on all blowers. I have a couple of questions on the Roots blower Dyno run you made.

    1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

    2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

    3. What was the tempature in the shop?

    4. Were you running the stock MAF?

    5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

    6. What octane fuel was run?

    7. what fuel pump system were you running?

    8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

    9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

    When, I do my Dyno run on the 28th below is what I will do.

    1. Lock up the converter

    2. I have a 90 MM MAF

    3. Twin Cobra pumps

    4. 4:10 Gears

    5. I will give the Inside Temp.

    6. The car will be at operating temp.

    7. I will be running winter grade 91 Ocatne fuel.

    8. I will run 9 Pounds of Boost.

    9. Rear cooling mod

    10. Art Car Trans Mod(stock Converter)

    11. You do not need the trans mod, rear cooling mod or 4:10 gears on any of these kits but I would consider them.

    12.I will give the intake diffrential tempature at full boost using a pyromoter.

    Lidio, let me know if there is anything else that you need to know or want me to do on my run. I want everyone on this site that is interested in a blower to have all there Dyno numbers equal but just remember that a Dyno is just part of the process. Driving the car is most important and also factor in the cost to HP ratio.

    Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)

    1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

    ....Totally warmed up, I always make sure they've been run and roled for a while before I begin to make pulls on the dyno.

    2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

    ....The fan in front of the car is a 36" barrel style fan, dont know the HP on it.

    3. What was the tempature in the shop?

    ....The temp in the shop was about 60-65 degrees

    4. Were you running the stock MAF?

    ....Yes the Trilogy's use the stock 80mm MAF and so did the Vortech MM too.

    5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

    ....The Trilogy car used the totally stock air-box and factory filter element.

    6. What octane fuel was run?

    ....Locally available 93 octane. No doubt winter blend this time of the year.

    7. what fuel pump system were you running?

    ....Stock, in tank with Trilogy supplied Boost-a-pump.

    8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

    .... Absolutly nothing above and beyond the stock Trilogy kit.

    9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

    ....Sorry, havent checked that. Although with the '03 Cobra intercooler system included in the Trilogys I'm sure the inlet temps after the blower are only about 15-25 degrees above ambient which is what I see on Cobra's.


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

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  14. #29
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    One thing I have to say is that this will be spun (as mentioned) into different directions because of differnt beliefs, philosophy’s and opinions. I don’t want this to turn into a ugly debate about the two most popular blower types for the Marauder’s. Just showing it like it is when it comes to low end grunt and the most used area of a MM torque range.

    I’ve been installing centrifugal on the Mustangs for years. I was one of Vortech’s first direct dealers back in 1992. Dealer number 4 to be exact. When the 4.6L’s came along with their smaller cubes and less torque then we were used to in the Mustangs with 5.0’s…. We did well with the centrifugals, but they didn’t exactly fix what was wrong with these little 281 cubic inch motors. Low end torque or lack there of. The MM to me falls victim to this more then any thing for obvious reasons….. heavy.
    I still love and push the Vortech’s in the Mustang scene and now though I also push the Kenne Bells too. These are screw type blowers, they make a lot of low end torque but don’t fall off in the high revs like the stock Eaton’s. Overwhelmingly the KB’s are liked better because of their instant gratification and low end torque. Whether it’s a stick or auto trans car. The only reason we don’t sell more of the KB’s is the end cost after buying the kit and paying install labor is much higher at this time.

    The Trilogy kit does in no way makes to much, unmanageable TQ down low. It’s just right with the stock Torque converter and the stock 3.55 gears. And as some one already posted, if it spins the tires to much…. Fix the traction problem, not reduce the power or add less power!
    Remember if this is some what of a dollar per performance comparison thing. Then it must be mentioned again that the Trilogy/Roots type blower in a MM performs very well in the real world with no other changes, only the blower kit. A centrifugal with a stock converter and non big gears in the axle has to “come on”.

    I guess what I’ve delicately tried to say is that a centrifugal on a MM with no loose torque convter and tall axle gears will not feel the same or as good from street light to street light when horsing around. This is why my dynoing methods with the converter locked in 3rd and starting very low in the rpm’s is to show what you working with every day in a MM that’s mostly stock as far as other power train changes go.

    I also want to say that both blowers add HP and TQ to a stock MM engine. Both blowers can lead to problems with a poor tune. But with proper tunes we’ve already had great dependability with Trilogy’s on lots of MM’s and I’ve had tons of Vortech equipped Mustangs with great long lasting results as well.


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  15. #30
    MI2QWK4U Guest
    Well said Lidio, I think you explained it better than anyone previously with your posts in this thread. Most folks dont know what kind of time and energy Lidio puts into these tests. He is absolutely meticulous, and pays a lot of attention to the smallest detains in an effort to be as fair as humanly possible. He really gets concerned when his findings may not set well with some, and draw fire, but what he produces are honest, well thought out results that are both factual and repeatable.
    Lid, when things settle out with the new crib, KFC is on me! Good job on the detailed report.

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