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Thread: TCE brake kits REVISTED

  1. #1

    TCE brake kits REVISITED

    Given the time passing and my not posting on a regular basis...and with new members coming in perhaps it's time we re visit big brakes. A few have asked about the kits based on technical data I've posted of late on the fundamentals of the BBK. All that and a lot of HP just means it's time to think about slowing that ride!

    Basic brakes;
    With a market of a few kits out there for you MM what makes TCE kits better or different than the others?

    TCE kits are all multi piston calipers produced by one of the industy leaders; Wilwood. These calipers are then paired with custom built aluminum hats and fully directional cast top grade iron rotors. Pad choice for many of these calipers exceed that of some of the others and the combined kit weight is less than what it replaces. TCE is the only (correct me if wrong) FIXED mount caliper kit for your vehicle. Fixed mount means no floating caliper mount or guide pins. Rotors are clamped by both sides via multi piston calipers. This leads to both improved clamp and release characteristics as well as a firmer more responsive pedal.

    Rotors on both the TCE front and TCE rear kits are directional cast for improved air flow. They can be had in a vast assortment of rotor finishes; slotted, drilled, both and zinc plated. All ala carte. Meaning each is produced to YOUR needs.

    Pads are mostly Wilwood/Raybestos Polymatrix pads available in a number of compounds from mild to wild. Both the front and rear kits also include basic mounting hardware and SS braided hoses. You only supply the brake fluid.

    TCE and a proper biased brake kit: often when building kits the first thing to do is select the largest parts one can fit and declare them 'the best'. This is simply a quick way to sell the all American bigger is better theme. Proper brake bias or balance is achieved by way of enhancing one or both ends of the car in a manner that makes both ends of the vehicle work to aide your stopping. And stopping alone is not the sole benefit of a BBK. Proper thermal management is crucial. Stock brakes work fine the first or second stop. The real test is doing this over and over with the same results.

    To achieve the best vehicle braking it also helps to have all four wheels doing your braking. In this manner all TCE kits take this into account and make the rear end help brake as well as the front. A car doing all its braking up front is just leaving too much on the table.

    Now for some hard math: Let's assume all brake pads are equal for some number crunching. We'll call the pad cf .40 for the math. The stock MM comes with a bias of about 70/30 brake effort.This means that the fronts do about 70% of the work of course. TCE front kits alter this a bit to 67/33 and do so with improved pedal feel and quicker response time. Add a TCE rear kit to this and the bias shifts to favor the rear a bit more at to a workable 64/36 distribution. This means that your car brakes not only firmer but also does so in a much flatter plane. Another kit boosts this % to a full 76/24 thus nearly negating the entire effectiveness of your rear brakes! From past experience the ideal static bias of your car will be about 65/35 given the wheel base and weight. Some very minor pad tuning of the TCE kit puts this right at 65/35. Yes there is some planning put into this! When you brake hard you want the % to shift forward with weight transfer, not all at one time. This is done by way of pad tuning. As the mass moves forward the pad increases it's bite and matches that of the required torque. This is dynamic brake bias. The key is to work the rear as long as you can rather than 'dumping' all the work on the fronts.

    For the past seven or so years TCE has used this same basic formula and parts on the Impala SS. Granted it's not a Ford but you know what; it's dynamics are nearly identical. TCE has produced kits for the SS for street, strip, show and LOTS of open track use (ok maybe they are a bit of a nutty crowd) and to date we have produced nearly 140 front kits and about 45 rears. Those kind of numbers in this industry only come from success, not trial and error at the parts bin.

    What fits and what don't. Now you know how it works but what will fit and what won't. All 13.1" TCE kits are forced to be produced with only a 1.10" wide rotor. The fit of a 1.25" rotor is hindered by the flat form of your wheel. Don't go hiding just yet though. Before somone says "I told you so" remember that disc width has nothing to do with brake torque. A solid half inch disc of 13" will stop your car just as well. The limit of termal capacity of a 1.10 rotor vs 1.25 is going to only show itself on the extended use of an open road course or similar use. Your pads will give out long before your rotors....Still however, some want more and TCE is here to offer it. We also do a 14" rotor kit which is in 1.25 width form! (and honestly we can do a very, very stout, race worthy 13" kit as well) This requires a wheel change. There's only so much room to put such large parts behind such un brake friendly wheels!

    Let's talk price on a front kit: I must point out however that this price IS going to go up very soon. Added costs here have simply forced this.

    13.1 x 1.10 DV rotors, Wilwood BSLn calipers, Poly Q pads, hoses, brackets and all the parts and pieces; $1279

    Options list;
    Drill $125
    Slot $55
    Both $125
    Zinc $65

    Want to go LARGE? Factor the 14" kit, built by order only to add $575 to this base price above.

    Now let's look at the rear: And again I'm certain that in the coming months the price will go up a bit. Both due to the custom nature of building it as well as hard parts cost. Remember both of these kits were priced out months ago!

    Last year TCE worked long and hard on finding a way to produce kits and effective results on the rear of the MM. Below is an edit of what it took. >>>

    ****************************** ******************
    The rears will be 13 x .81DV (using the same rotor as the Impala) and be offered with the FSL caliper.

    The kit will include; new hats (drums) and Directional Vaned 13" rootrs, FSL calipers and the user friendly Q pads. Also of course; hoses and hardware. The kicker is the replacement of the factory mounting plate and its 'core return policy' of exchanging the one on your car now. This will add a REFUNDABLE $300 to the kit price. Also needed on the rear is work on the C clips of the rear axles. This is a lobor kit, not for the weak.

    Base price of the kit is set. Cost: $1479 plus rotor finish options.
    ****************************** ******************

    So what's the final tab on a front and rear combo kit??
    Depending upon options and front kit diameter; about $3k =/- a few bucks, plus shipping and refundable core charge. Of course you don't HAVE to do both ends at one time either.

    Is it worth it do do this? That's up to you. It's a bargain however compared to the new Magnum kits at $2100 front and planned $1200 rear. Without rotor finish options! The MM kits still remain a real bargain!!

    I hope this has helped new members to understand what is out there for the MM from my company. Like any other product; shop smartly.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Todd TCE; 01-05-2005 at 09:55 AM.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

  2. #2
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    Informative! I did not realize there was a percentage difference between the front and rear.


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  3. #3
    Absolutely there is.

    If a car has 50/50 bias it will have much too much rear brake in most conditions.
    Here an internal proportioning valve can prevent one from 'too much of a good thing'.

    What cars can achieve this or near it? Formula cars, or mid engine cars. Where weight distribution aides in braking.

    In fairness, weight distribution, ride height, tires, shocks, springs, CG, brake pressures, pads and other things all play a roll in how a vehicle stops. On a FWD car; add 200lbs to the trunk and you'll see an improvement in braking.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

  4. #4
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    Are your rotors balanced??


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  5. #5
    Rotors are not balanced beyond that produced when manufactured- in the turning process. The castings are such that balance has never been an issue. If one wishes to have them spot ground for perfect balance I'm certain we can arrange that. A reasonable request, yet has not proven necessary. Even on all out racing apps where the rotor is turned very fast and abused.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

  6. #6
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    Speaking of math: What distance do our cars stop in 100 mph to zero and 60 mph to zero with OEM brakes ???

    Same questions with your brakes, I would be very interested in this math, no one in 2 1/2 years has provided answer to this question.
    Smokie
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  7. #7
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    Nice write up Todd.


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  8. #8
    I don't have stats on the stock brakes or the TCE ones to compare too.

    What you have to understand is that 'brake performance' is not soley about shorter stopping distances. In some cases Big Brakes may mean a slight increase in initial stopping distance. This is due to the reaction of pads and rotors in a cold app.

    The real value of the BBK is in REPEATED stopping, fade resistance, modulation and overall thermal management. Something stock brakes on most vehicles sorely lack.

    I'm not making this stuff up. This has been proven on a number of cases where cars are retro fitted with a BBK from a number of companies. Recent aritcles in Grass Roots Motorsports alone have spoke of this. As well as the potential loss of HP due to larger rotors....we didn't cover that one.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd TCE
    What you have to understand is that 'brake performance' is not soley about shorter stopping distances. In some cases Big Brakes may mean a slight increase in initial stopping distance. This is due to the reaction of pads and rotors in a cold app.

    The real value of the BBK is in REPEATED stopping, fade resistance, modulation and overall thermal management. Something stock brakes on most vehicles sorely lack.
    Thank you for replying Todd, since I live in a state that is flat as a pancake and 90% of my MM. miles are highway, my overriding concern is that one single panic stop that may mean the difference between a major wreck or me just saying under my breath "damn that was close".

    I understand what you are saying and I agree with your above statements, I just hope you understand were I am coming from.
    Smokie
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    60' 1.851 Street tires & Stock wheels.
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  10. #10
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    I have the 4 wheel TCE set up and it is anexcellent system.......................

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokie
    Speaking of math: What distance do our cars stop in 100 mph to zero and 60 mph to zero with OEM brakes ???

    Same questions with your brakes, I would be very interested in this math, no one in 2 1/2 years has provided answer to this question.
    I don't know about a stock Marauder but I think the Kenny Brown Marauder from the videos that were done for MotorWeek said it stopped in 120 feet (60-0 mph). Stock might be around 140 feet?
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  12. #12
    I don't like to post numbers on such things- even if I had long term, hard data. Reason is that there are always too many things to consider when you try to compare them. I covered most of them.

    On the other hand....I can tell you that when tests have been done by magazines the BBK usually comes out ahead. Testing on the SAME car before and after. Same surface and TRYING to use the same pad.

    The reasons are; quicker pad reaction due to caliper design, often improved PROPER pad selection for the operating temps, improved driver feedback or feel.

    Whe I did my old SHO and started this business 11 years ago I put the brakes on it for my wife as a daily driver and test bed. Her comment to me after many highway miles was not feer of being able to stop in time, but feer of being rear ended for doing so.

    Guess I can't explain it better than that.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd TCE
    ...Her comment to me after many highway miles was not feer of being able to stop in time, but feer of being rear ended for doing so.
    Oh man I can so relate to that.
    2003 300A Black Mercury Marauder 4334 of 7839
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  14. #14
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    Todd, Thanks for the update. As you know from our many conversations, I am going to buy both front & rear kits from you.
    I'm still trying to finalize my wheel choice. I was about to buy the ROH Drift 'R' 18 x 8" rim(s) that you had test fit for me but I'm still waiting on a shipment from the factory in Australia.
    Meanwhile several other 18 x 8" rims with +50mm offset have come on the market and I'm reconsidering....
    Two questions:...
    When do you expect to implement the price increase and How much (%) do you think the increase will be??
    Thanks again, Joe
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  15. #15
    Fishing eh? lol

    I expect the price change to happen pretty soon. I have a new guy starting to help me rework the web pages a bit and when we do the prices will change. They need to pretty quick given the costs on my end are up as well. Some hard parts costs are up, a bit of ovehead but the real kicker is shipping costs. If you are at all near Brown you know what I mean. I can no longer even ballpark shipping on a small box over the phone. I tend to underpride it by a few bucks!

    Exact amounts or % I can't say. There will also be a bit of streamlining of the kits in how they are offered and produced to help offset this.

    Future kits will be sold $xxxx for the kit including; gas slotted, heat treated, zinc plated rotors. Drilling extra. Blank rotors by special order. In the long run it's less costly for me to produce this way. That would take the $1279 up to $1399 by current pricing. It won't go quite that high.
    TCE
    Your one stop...for Wilwood brakes.

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